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Yay, more tedious Neverwinter stuff, because its totally not killing that game.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:49
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| # ? May 16, 2024 09:17 |
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I'm sure some "monetization specialist" at PWE looked at some spreadsheet, saw that they could make 3% more money this quarter if they made some big grindy sink, and just doesn't know or care about the long term health of the game since player satisfaction can't be easily numberized and thrown onto a powerpoint slide. While anyone with actual sense would look at how STO's grown and maybe think it had something to do with how accessible it is compared to NWO/ChampO. There's a reason the complaints about the rep grinds were comparatively subdued; it was a massive improvement over random drops, and the cash sink was at the end of the grind rather than the beginning, with rewards you were guaranteed if you spent. Not an up front cost for a gambling chance. They haven't even really considered the long term disincentives that paid ship upgrades and item upgrades give too. Someone with a big stable of ships is probably only going to upgrade their favorite(s) and leave the rest to rot, while the annoyance at the money they "wasted" simmers in the back of their head. While the big dilithium/zen sink for item upgrades means that most people will probably only upgrade critical gear (like in my case, probably Kahr's plasma beams and crescent disruptor cannons/turrets) while leaving the rest alone, discouraging the acquisition of new sidegrades. When the endgame is built around having fun sidegrades to swap between, that's a big problem. And you can be drat sure they built the times/prices around single characters, not people with alts.
Asimo fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 21:58
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http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19265431#post19265431 So aside from the dil/time cost of the actual upgrade, the system is very generous.
The only concerns now are the actual costs.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:00
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Well the actual cost, and time, and the fact the added mods are randomly assigned. So you get to see that fancy ACCx3 or CRTDx3 gear you spent millions on suddenly get a bunch of loving DMG mods or whatever. Luckily I'm at the point where I don't give a drat, but it's still obnoxious and a blatant cash grab with a lot of negative metagame problems.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:03
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FrostyJones posted:http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19265431#post19265431 Cryptic devs who don't understand their own game posted:The bonus mod for an item at Epic (Gold) quality is a unique special mod that doesn't otherwise appear, generally more powerful than other mods. These are:
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Sep 16, 2014 22:13
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Honestly if they fixed [dmg] to be non-useless I might be ok with this.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:23
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FrostyJones posted:http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19265431#post19265431 The market value of the upgrade kits/boosters will be huge, yeah. On the positive side, there's some actual viability to things like screechbeams and caustic plasma now. I wonder if it'll apply to hanger pets?
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Sep 16, 2014 22:25
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Good question. At the moment hangar pets have no Mk levels and scale to your character level (there's several pre-50 carriers after all), but there's no guarantee they'll continue to level like that post-50.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:29
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I think Hanger pets will be excluded for the time being as they have no ties to crafting. Edit: No upgrades for the TR-116A Rifles. Buy my gun! Buy my gun! FrostyJones fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 22:36
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I'm assuming that upgrading the item will bind it, but I haven't seen it stated explicitly. Can anyone shine some light on that?
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Sep 16, 2014 22:43
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I know games like this are nothing but timesinks but that upgrade crap doesn't even seem remotely fun
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Sep 16, 2014 22:46
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I also wonder what the final viability will be on buying Mk XIV tax consoles, for example, vs buying green mk X consoles and levelling them yourself.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:46
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wdarkk posted:Honestly if they fixed [dmg] to be non-useless I might be ok with this.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:47
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How fitting that this expansion has a Voyager theme, grappling hook guns in the 25th century eh? Well that's about as dumb as a slot machine upgrade system.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:56
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Tighclops posted:I know games like this are nothing but timesinks but that upgrade crap doesn't even seem remotely fun That's why the whales will do it, because they hate fun and love burning money on autism.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:31
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So... did I pick a bad time to get back into STO? Because I'm pretty much a filthy casual who plays just for the space battles (what? I think they're cool  ) and exploring the Star Trek universe as opposed to discoballing pubbies or Pv)- hell, I'm thinking of shelling out some spacebucks for those Delta Quadrant ships.Speaking of spacebucks, with the upgrading roulette coming out, would it be worth plonking all my greens and blues onto the Exchange?
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Sep 17, 2014 03:40
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Well, upgrading from MkXII to MkXIV is something like 12k+22k dilithium, while upgrading from very rare to ultra rare once you're MkXIV is another 35k dil or so, and presumably even more if you want to go to unique/yellow. Double those numbers if you want it done instantly rather than waiting a day or more, keeping in mind the item can't be used while the final upgrade's being done. And it's even skeevier since you can't see the total upgrade cost, just the "cheap" 950 dilithium every time you toss an upgrade item in (despite the fact that's only getting you 3% of the total...) And don't forget, that cost is per item and you can't even pick the mods the item gets! So yeah, basically gently caress everything related to the upgrade system.  It isn't the intended result, but basically there's no point in ever getting new gear from lockboxes or new reps or whatever since it's just completely economically nonviable to have more than one weapon/console set. Which neuters their entire endgame scheme and is directly at odds with their economic incentives to make people farm up sidegrades and play alts. Thanks, PWE!
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Sep 17, 2014 04:25
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When I got into STO at the beginning of summer it seemed like the right balance in the sense there was a degree of in-game grind but if you were new or casual at least there was a lot of grinds to get different things but since 9.5 it does seem like it is sliding into bullshit grinds. edit: in the sense there were five rep grinds but you could switch from one or the other to mix up what you were doing and just doing an STF for a grind meant you at least got your daily + hourly in one shot so even if it took 40 days you'd get your rep and rewards consistently. Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 04:34
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Asimo posted:And don't forget, that cost is per item and you can't even pick the mods the item gets! So yeah, basically gently caress everything related to the upgrade system. Hard to see any real positives to this system, isn't it? I know someone who upgraded a fleet locator console on Tribble to Mk XIV gold, and it took ~40 upgrades. At 950 dil a pop. And a long-rear end time unless you want to blow more dil to Finish Now. The costs affect so many other things. I've been pretty negative about the design of the Intel ships, but at the end of the day, I was probably going to buy a T6 ship or two. And now I know I'm definitely going to need to convert most of the Zen I'd saved up back into dil. That's one less shiny new ship people are going to see flying around.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:45
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CommissarMega posted:So... did I pick a bad time to get back into STO? Because I'm pretty much a filthy casual who plays just for the space battles (what? I think they're cool I feel the same way. I came back after over two years because I had a long weekend and remembered that I never played the Romulan stuff they added, and now I'm having a great time flying around as a Romulan terrorist pew-pewing the Tal Shiar, sending my doffs out to get killed and shooting the poo poo with goons. But as soon as people start throwing around numbers about dilithium and upgrades and Mk whatevers the game just starts to seem really un-fun. I'll probably just play through the story stuff, take a crack at some endgame stuff if it connects to the story, and then lose interest when it turns into a grind. It happened a few months after launch, it happened when I re-regged a few years ago, it'll happen now.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:47
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FuturePastNow posted:Hard to see any real positives to this system, isn't it? I know someone who upgraded a fleet locator console on Tribble to Mk XIV gold, and it took ~40 upgrades. At 950 dil a pop. And a long-rear end time unless you want to blow more dil to Finish Now. On the (tiny)upside, you're probably going to make a decent profit on that zen.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:06
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Asimo posted:Well, upgrading from MkXII to MkXIV is something like 12k+22k dilithium, while upgrading from very rare to ultra rare once you're MkXIV is another 35k dil or so, and presumably even more if you want to go to unique/yellow. Double those numbers if you want it done instantly rather than waiting a day or more, keeping in mind the item can't be used while the final upgrade's being done. And it's even skeevier since you can't see the total upgrade cost, just the "cheap" 950 dilithium every time you toss an upgrade item in (despite the fact that's only getting you 3% of the total...) That.. actually sounds not too bad? The 12+22k isn't really out of line with the cost of buying completely new Very Rare/Ultra Rare mkxii stuff from rep/fleet sources, and if I understand the system right you have a (probably small) chance of getting a quality upgrade just doing the mkxii->mkiv upgrades. I mean, it's expensive, sure, but it doesn't sound like a completely soulless grind. No more than having to buy new gear would be, which is what I was expecting. And if you start with ultra rare equipment, the only upgrade is the gold, which isn't a random mod. If you start with very rare to upgrade to ultra rare, only one of the mods is randomly rolled. It's probably worth starting with at least a purple instead of a blue mkxii anyways, due to the dil cost of rarity upgrades. What quality tech upgrades is that using? It sounds like the higher quality upgrade you use, the less dil is needed, so costs might be a bit less than that if the crafted upgrades aren't too mat intensive.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:12
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Asimo posted:Well, upgrading from MkXII to MkXIV is something like 12k+22k dilithium, while upgrading from very rare to ultra rare once you're MkXIV is another 35k dil or so, and presumably even more if you want to go to unique/yellow. Double those numbers if you want it done instantly rather than waiting a day or more, keeping in mind the item can't be used while the final upgrade's being done. And it's even skeevier since you can't see the total upgrade cost, just the "cheap" 950 dilithium every time you toss an upgrade item in (despite the fact that's only getting you 3% of the total...) Those numbers are insane. I think I might be done.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:26
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Bremen posted:That.. actually sounds not too bad? The 12+22k isn't really out of line with the cost of buying completely new Very Rare/Ultra Rare mkxii stuff from rep/fleet sources, and if I understand the system right you have a (probably small) chance of getting a quality upgrade just doing the mkxii->mkiv upgrades. I mean, it's expensive, sure, but it doesn't sound like a completely soulless grind. No more than having to buy new gear would be, which is what I was expecting. And if you start with ultra rare equipment, the only upgrade is the gold, which isn't a random mod. If you start with very rare to upgrade to ultra rare, only one of the mods is randomly rolled. It's probably worth starting with at least a purple instead of a blue mkxii anyways, due to the dil cost of rarity upgrades. And it's not like you can just ignore it either, looking at the few items I tested on tribble it's like a %20+ jump in effectiveness. SKY COQ posted:Those numbers are insane. I think I might be done.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:34
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Okay Gentlemen, pick your favorite ship now. Because you won't be seeing the others in a long time. Vesta.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:41
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Asimo posted:It's... alright as long as you only plan to upgrade one set of gear, but it's still completely unnecessary and nothing more than a player-hostile cash grab and it shoots their itemization and endgame reward scheme in the foot. I'm a casual player at best - I only got seriously into rep grinding after they patched to make it tolerable, and even then my main's only sitting on rank 4 of everything. I don't have the time or patience to grind so much dill to upgrade every item on my ship when it's this harsh. I've enjoyed the game and spent a bit of money on it but if this is how they decide to treat their players I can't justify playing it anymore.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:42
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Asimo posted:Keep in mind you still had to acquire the item in the first place (so that's a good 20k dil or so for a rep weapon, 20k fleet credits and 15k dil for a fleet weapon, or however many millions on the exchange for a lockbox weapon with good traits) before you even begin the upgrade process, so you're looking at potentially up to 100k dilithium per item (which I remind is like five bucks worth of zen at the current rates) to start from scratch and get to MkXIV ultra-rare. And you have 6-8 weapon slots, 4-5 equipment slots, and 11 console slots to fill... presumably you have a full set of Mk XII stuff already so that reduces the pain, but it's still effectively a complete reset. And it's another massive surcharge to getting a new equipment set, since Cryptic's made it clear they want to keep rep gear and fleet gear at Mk XII. Ah, true, I admit I was looking at it from the perspective of someone who already has a complete set of Very Rare+ mkXII gear. Were those numbers you posted using the white vendor bought tech upgrades?
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Sep 17, 2014 05:43
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Nah that was with the "intermediate" tech upgrades from crafting. I think it'll be a bit less if you do the "expert" ones, though the character I was using didn't have the skill yet to make those. One upside: the upgrade items are cheap to make (some green mats and a pittance of EC) and give around 6000 crafting XP with a 10 minute countdown, so leveling the crafting skills will be way easier and cheaper now. SKY COQ posted:I'm a casual player at best - I only got seriously into rep grinding after they patched to make it tolerable, and even then my main's only sitting on rank 4 of everything. I don't have the time or patience to grind so much dill to upgrade every item on my ship when it's this harsh. I've enjoyed the game and spent a bit of money on it but if this is how they decide to treat their players I can't justify playing it anymore.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:48
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I'll keep an eye out for changes before I pull the plug but gently caress this is disappointing. I haven't looked at the forums but reddit seems to be losing its poo poo so hopefully they'll take the feedback on board.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:51
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Asimo posted:Nah that was with the "intermediate" tech upgrades from crafting. I think it'll be a bit less if you do the "expert" ones, though the character I was using didn't have the skill yet to make those. I'll be shocked if that kind of crafting xp makes it into the release version. According to the official forums, with "superior" tech upgrades it's 6,450 dil for mkxii -> mkxiii and 10,750 dil for mkxiii -> mkxiv. Slightly better, but might not help if those upgrades require extremely expensive mats.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:53
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SKY COQ posted:I'll keep an eye out for changes before I pull the plug but gently caress this is disappointing. I haven't looked at the forums but reddit seems to be losing its poo poo so hopefully they'll take the feedback on board. I kinda knew this poo poo would be garbage as soon as the 50-60 was announced as something other than actual level progression. It seemed like they'd have to half rear end around the current system and design and boy howdy did they not disappoint.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:02
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Burning_Monk posted:Okay Gentlemen, pick your favorite ship now. Because you won't be seeing the others in a long time. Cyberball 2072 posted:I kinda knew this poo poo would be garbage as soon as the 50-60 was announced as something other than actual level progression. It seemed like they'd have to half rear end around the current system and design and boy howdy did they not disappoint.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:07
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You know the more I think about it, my original problem with this stuff at its base was the idea that "they took our tricks away, it's gonna take time to get back on top and I don't like that" which isn't the most fair argument against something. But as I give it more thought I'm okay if it takes awhile to get all my ships re-kitted with MK 14 gear, it doesn't have to be all the best all the time. What does annoy me now is the thing I said a few weeks back, the time spent grinding the poo poo up to MK 14 will just be another 10000 ISE runs and gently caress that.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:27
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Oh! Good news. Messed around on tribble and the cost to upgrade consoles is way lower, only 5-10k dil per rank. It's a small help, but it's a help. On the other hand... remember what Cryptic said about no random chance in upgrades? Absolute bullshit. Mark upgrades are guaranteed, but rarity upgrades aren't. All that happens is the percent chance increase rolls over from attempt to attempt, but it's so pitifully loving low (like 2% for a full upgrade cycle on a science console, like 10k dil, with intermediate upgrade items) that you're basically required to either spend hundred of thousands of dilithium or buy c-store chance improvement items to have any hope of going from very rare to epic. And of course the item's unusable for twelve hours per attempt unless you spend more dil! I mean it's not really... a big deal? The mark improvement is the main thing to worry about. But considering the quality upgrade was the big selling point on how this won't just be a screwjob, whelp! Asimo fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 06:41
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It's not just just grinding out the shitloads of dil that's the problem it's having to dump 18-29k of it into an item 950 dil at a time. This whole system is just more pointless busywork and it loving sucks.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:44
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Well when they do it like that it obfuscates the massive cost, you see. 
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Sep 17, 2014 06:45
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So, after trading in several years' worth of accumulated marks for dil during the last dil weekend, and running the CC event on way too many characters, I'll probably have enough dil to upgrade all the equipment for 1.5 ships. Assuming I'm starting from existing fleet/rep mk xii equipment. Way to motivate me to try out new playstyles, cryptic.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:51
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g0del posted:So, after trading in several years' worth of accumulated marks for dil during the last dil weekend, and running the CC event on way too many characters, I'll probably have enough dil to upgrade all the equipment for 1.5 ships. Assuming I'm starting from existing fleet/rep mk xii equipment. It looks like mkxiii+ gear does drop/is available as mission rewards. The upgrade system seems to be mostly for those who want the absolute best stuff, sort of like fleet and rep gear is now. Bremen fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 07:05
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Moon Slayer posted:I feel the same way. I came back after over two years because I had a long weekend and remembered that I never played the Romulan stuff they added, and now I'm having a great time flying around as a Romulan terrorist pew-pewing the Tal Shiar, sending my doffs out to get killed and shooting the poo poo with goons. But as soon as people start throwing around numbers about dilithium and upgrades and Mk whatevers the game just starts to seem really un-fun. I'll probably just play through the story stuff, take a crack at some endgame stuff if it connects to the story, and then lose interest when it turns into a grind. It happened a few months after launch, it happened when I re-regged a few years ago, it'll happen now. Yeah, this is the plan for me- just go through the story stuff and have a laugh; I doubt I'd need Mark Crazy items for that kind of stuff. Besides, it's kinda  to customize my crew of Pretty/Handsome/Pretty Handsome Space Princes/Princesses and make up stories about each of them (it's me, I'm the super-pubbie).
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Sep 17, 2014 07:56
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Hah you people should see enchanting in Neverwinter. Want more than a 1% chance to upgrade your enchantment from lesser to normal grade?  please to buy this 1000 zen consumable crafting token for a 100% success ratio. Hope you don't mind buying a whole lot of them.
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Sep 17, 2014 08:30
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