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Healing surges are one of the great innovations of D&D 4E that they really should have kept. It kind of makes sense to make healing spells heal a percentage of your health, so they always stay relevant.
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Sep 21, 2014 05:13
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AlphaDog posted:My 76 year old dad instantly grasped the concept of MMO tanking just from hearing "that guy's the tank". Turns out that when he played hex-and-counter wargames in the '60s and '70s, pretty much any hard-to-kill dangerous unit often got referred to as "a tank", and the act of using something like that to defend other units (or to threaten units who attacked your other units) was sometimes called, get this, tanking. When it comes to grognard complaining it doesn't matter who used the term first, just who used it last.
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Sep 21, 2014 05:14
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ascendance posted:Healing surges are one of the great innovations of D&D 4E that they really should have kept. It kind of makes sense to make healing spells heal a percentage of your health, so they always stay relevant. That and making Healing, as a mechanic, being much more finite with very, very rare exceptions.
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Sep 21, 2014 05:15
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The Bee posted:4E "tanking" isn't even MMO tanking. Its forcing a decision of "hit me or suffer." How do so many grogs miss the point of 4E's mechanics. I think its interesting to compare how similar tanking is in 4th edition to tanks in MOBAs like DotA and LoL. Like in 4th edition tanks in MOBAs can't physically force people to attack them (except for short duration taunts which basically act as a form of crowd control the same way a stun would) So instead they need way to stick to their target, disable them so they can't attack their allies, and punish people who choose to ignore them. A good example of this would be Nautilus from League of Legends, a giant cursed undead Diver wielding an anchor as his weapon: - His first ability Dredge Line throws out his anchor to drag a target towards him as he drags himself to them meeting them in the middle (forced moment and mobility). - His second ability Titans Wrath creates a shield (read temp HP) around himself, as long as the shield doesn't take enough damage to break his basic attacks deal massive amount of extra damage and hit everyone in a large cone in front of him as he wildly swings his anchor (basically the definition of a punishment mechanic in a real time game, and extra survivability to withstand the ensuing focus.) - His third ability Riptide creates concentric rings of expositions that expand outward from his location damaging and slowing everyone they hit (stickiness and some light punishment because people can be hit by multiple rings if they try to run away as they go off). - His ultimate (read daily) Depth Charge marks a target of his choice then send out a series of depth charge expositions that chase down the target (yes depth charge expositions on land that create the characteristic plume of water, LoL is a very silly game sometimes) damaging and disabling them and any ally unfortunate enough to be caught in one of the blasts. (A guaranteed disable on one target, possibly more depending on positioning and decent if not amazing damage compared to smiler powers, not bad for a defender daily.) -If all that wasn't enough his passive ability Staggering Blow is literally the 4th edition fighters Combat Superiority class feature. Nautilus's basic attacks deal extra damage and root the target in place temporarily, only works on the same target once every six seconds. I don't know about you but that all sounds an awful lot like a 4th edition defender to me. The mechanics are a little different due to bring real time vd turn based and being limited to 3 regular abilities and one ultimate. But the overall idea is pretty much identical.
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Sep 21, 2014 05:28
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AlphaDog posted:My 76 year old dad instantly grasped the concept of MMO tanking just from hearing "that guy's the tank". Turns out that when he played hex-and-counter wargames in the '60s and '70s, pretty much any hard-to-kill dangerous unit often got referred to as "a tank", and the act of using something like that to defend other units (or to threaten units who attacked your other units) was sometimes called, get this, tanking. Tendales posted:I'm actually kind of curious now what the earliest documented use of 'tanking' we can find is.  I've got 1981, but I think there are probably earlier ones. (From the Manual of Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord. A D&D-based game that serves as a forebearer for both modern western RPGs and JRPGs alike  )
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Sep 21, 2014 05:38
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ProfessorCirno posted:The point is there is no front line anymore. Hit and run isn't just better, it's the given norm. Again I'm assuming a houseruled 'can get one AoO at every enemy moving in/out of combat as fast as possible' but I really don't think this is as big an issue as you think. Mainly because said enemies could just as easily totally surround the entire party if they're standing flat footed (since apparently the conga line has a huge amount of enemies) or they could even do crazy things such as using bows/slings to focus fire on whatever they wanted to hit. The bounded accuracy is the bad part, I don't understand why that's still there. Let low level things hit high level things on a critical hit only and be done with it.
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Sep 21, 2014 18:38
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But that's not how the actual game works.
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Sep 21, 2014 18:51
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mastershakeman posted:Again I'm assuming a houseruled 'can get one AoO at every enemy moving in/out of combat as fast as possible' but I really don't think this is as big an issue as you think. Mainly because said enemies could just as easily totally surround the entire party if they're standing flat footed (since apparently the conga line has a huge amount of enemies) or they could even do crazy things such as using bows/slings to focus fire on whatever they wanted to hit. Just from personal experience, I have never been in a game in the past, oh, 5 years of my life where the groups I play with would implement that as a houserule. The rules don't include it, and that's that as far as we were concerned. Also, citing houserules is not a very good argument, since that still implies that the rules as is are less than stellar. e: S.J. posted:But that's not how the actual game works.
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Sep 21, 2014 18:52
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Enemy conga line may be bit of an exaggeration but RAW there is absolutely nothing a fighter can do to stop a couple of orcs from shifting out of his ZoC, using their bonus action to charge the wizard, and double teaming him like they were in a porn film for axe fetishists.
Vorpal Cat fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 21, 2014 19:08
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I don't know about anyone else currently playing a Fighter, but I'm getting pretty goddamn sick of announcing "I attack him again" every turn. At least I got some spells now, but it's still 95% "I attack him again."
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Sep 21, 2014 20:19
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I suppose it would be too mmo to include fighter attacks that imparted some sort of disadvantage to the enemy instead of just dealing 1dX damage. Wasn't there some AD&D or 2e or whatever splatbook that had all kinds of cool fightery things they could drawn some inspiration from if they were forcing themselves to make this the grog edition?
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Sep 21, 2014 20:31
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S.J. posted:But that's not how the actual game works. Has anyone actually ever seen a conga line attack by enemies that are aware of the rules of opportunity attacks? A dm could do it but he could also just have every enemy open up with longbows at the same target. I just don't see this theoretical conga line thing as an issue. The dm I play with always goes after any caster in the party once they start chanting, if not before, and the entire party has to work together to body block enemies and it works pretty well. It's not like everyone stands still while the enemies run past a fighter. The casters can reposition too if they're being chased.
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Sep 21, 2014 20:45
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mastershakeman posted:It's not like everyone stands still while the enemies run past a fighter. The casters can reposition too if they're being chased.
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Sep 21, 2014 21:07
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Rannos22 posted:I suppose it would be too mmo to include fighter attacks that imparted some sort of disadvantage to the enemy instead of just dealing 1dX damage. Wasn't there some AD&D or 2e or whatever splatbook that had all kinds of cool fightery things they could drawn some inspiration from if they were forcing themselves to make this the grog edition? BECMI's weapon proficiencies did cool poo poo like that, but D&D doesn't exist. Never has nope.
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Sep 21, 2014 21:11
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mastershakeman posted:Has anyone actually ever seen a conga line attack by enemies that are aware of the rules of opportunity attacks? A dm could do it but he could also just have every enemy open up with longbows at the same target. I just don't see this theoretical conga line thing as an issue. The dm I play with always goes after any caster in the party once they start chanting, if not before, and the entire party has to work together to body block enemies and it works pretty well. The DM could easily have the first monster after the fighter's turn deliberately take the one opportunity attack per round the fighter gets, allowing all the others to conga line to their hearts content. Then all you need to do is have two monsters surround the caster stopping them from running without eating multiple opportunity attacks. The one saving grace for casters is that, much like fighters, most individual monsters in 5th don't really have a way to stick to their target or punish it for trying to run away. Edit: Not that that helps if the DM decides he's going to take a poo poo ton og weak but fast creatures and physical surround a target. So the one or two big monsters in the fight can go to town on them. Vorpal Cat fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 21, 2014 21:20
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Vorpal Cat posted:The DM could easily have the first monster after the fighter's turn deliberately take the one opportunity attack per round the fighter gets, allowing all the others to conga line to their hearts content. Then all you need to do is have two monsters surround the caster stopping them from running without eating multiple opportunity attacks. My point is that the monsters shouldn't know that a fighter only gets one opportunity attack. To the monster, the first guy going in know he's going to get smashed in the back and probably die, so he wouldn't do it, unless the DM is just being a dick . In which case the DM could just throw too many enemies at the party, or again, just shoot them with arrows. And besides, didn't the old versions (BECMI, maybe 2e?) have unlimited opportunity attacks? With the amount of 'DM discretion' in this edition, if the DM decides to play his monsters in such a nonstandard way, bring back the unlimited opportunity attacks.
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Sep 21, 2014 21:49
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mastershakeman posted:Has anyone actually ever seen a conga line attack by enemies that are aware of the rules of opportunity attacks? A dm could do it but he could also just have every enemy open up with longbows at the same target. I just don't see this theoretical conga line thing as an issue. The dm I play with always goes after any caster in the party once they start chanting, if not before, and the entire party has to work together to body block enemies and it works pretty well. I've seen it in a 5-foot hallway in 13th Age a couple months ago. They were dire rats or skeleton wolves or something like that.
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Sep 21, 2014 21:55
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mastershakeman posted:My point is that the monsters shouldn't know that a fighter only gets one opportunity attack. To the monster, the first guy going in know he's going to get smashed in the back and probably die, so he wouldn't do it, unless the DM is just being a dick . In which case the DM could just throw too many enemies at the party, or again, just shoot them with arrows. So your argument is that it's up to the DM to be constantly aware or on the look out so that he's not about to poo poo on fighters because the RAW he's working with are partially broken. Like, you're using a lot of "If the DM, unless the DM, but my DM, does/doesn't do this thing in this way" kind of arguments that just aren't making very good points on their own merits.
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Sep 21, 2014 21:57
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In case you missed it the first few times we said it, I'll be more blunt: When your answer is "The DM fixes it," you are stating it is broken.
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Sep 21, 2014 21:58
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mastershakeman posted:My point is that the monsters shouldn't know that a fighter only gets one opportunity attack. To the monster, the first guy going in know he's going to get smashed in the back and probably die, so he wouldn't do it, unless the DM is just being a dick . In which case the DM could just throw too many enemies at the party, or again, just shoot them with arrows. When you ignore poo poo rules it's just like they don't exist! Therefore they're not really poo poo! If other poo poo rules are just as poo poo, it's the same as nothing being poo poo! If you own the less-poo poo rules from 30+ years ago, just use those instead but please still appreciate this new book which as I have just demonstrated is completely non -poo poo! Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 21, 2014 22:01
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mastershakeman posted:My point is that the monsters shouldn't know that a fighter only gets one opportunity attack. To the monster, the first guy going in know he's going to get smashed in the back and probably die, so he wouldn't do it, unless the DM is just being a dick . In which case the DM could just throw too many enemies at the party, or again, just shoot them with arrows. Trouble is, the DM might well throw a bunch of monsters at the party and go "OK, two of them go after everyone", which isn't malicious GMing or anything. That's probably fine for the heavily armoured dudes, but everyone else might be in trouble. The fighter has no way to gather up the extras and discourage them from stabbing his buddies to death, while he did do in 4e. (mark 'em all with an area attack, or use come and get it to gather them up, that sort of thing) You also mention shooting them with arrows. A 4e fighter would be able to deal with that situation as well (by engaging the ranged enemy in melee and preventing it from attacking anyone else effectively), while a 5e one doesn't really have the tools to defend his party at all in that situation. Your argument seems to be that the monsters should have a "gentleman's agreement" with the party that they'll only attack the least vulnerable party members at any given time, and not only is that not advice the rulebooks give the DM, (so there will likely be many tables where it doesn't fly that way) it's a big step back from codified rules that encouraged the monsters to attack the party "defender" characters or suffer for it.
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Sep 21, 2014 22:02
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I think most of us are aware that the conga line isn't a common way for fights to happen; the point is that there are situations where the RAW actively work against the Fighter's ability to fight, because even if they can access the same move-attack-move as anyone else, they are still a fighter with only one mode of agency, which is I attack the thing. They have no real ability outside of certain, very specific situations to direct the flow of a combat encounter.
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Sep 21, 2014 22:03
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One other thing - a fighter is assumed to be making multiple attacks per round at higher levels, correct? If he only got one of those attacks a turn, he'd be laughably ineffectual compared to monster HP, right? You still only get one opportunity attack at higher levels, so the punishment for ignoring you gets less and less the more levels you gain! Awesome!
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Sep 21, 2014 22:09
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did Jack or anyone do a a chart comparing fighter damage at high levels to monster HP? I want to say he did, but I can't check at the moment
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Sep 21, 2014 22:13
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I think what will actually end up happening is that few people will houserule it and most will assume it's just how the game is meant to be played and any thoughts of fighters being able to hold a front line will drift out of D&D, as fighters are not allowed to have literally any job whatsoever.
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Sep 21, 2014 22:16
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They'll probably make a book close to the end of 5e's lifespan that gives martial classes some cool poo poo to do and all the GMs will ban itGrimpond posted:did Jack or anyone do a a chart comparing fighter damage at high levels to monster HP? I want to say he did, but I can't check at the moment Yeah, it was a while back. I think his conclusion was that it starts off quite good (take out a monster in a couple of rounds) but gets worse and worse as you gain levels. It's possible that the (completely unnecessary) magic items might compensate for it somewhat, but we haven't seen many of them yet, and the ones we have seen don't make up for it.
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Sep 21, 2014 22:20
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Jack the Lad posted:This is true - let me crosspost some of my stats and charts. Jack the Lad posted:I'm not at my computer so I can't do proper/fancy charts, but the short answer is no: using start set and playtest stuff. As far as I'm aware these haven't changed too significantly since the release of the PHB
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Sep 21, 2014 22:31
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ascendance posted:Healing surges are one of the great innovations of D&D 4E that they really should have kept. It kind of makes sense to make healing spells heal a percentage of your health, so they always stay relevant. This mechanic is sort of there in the short rest action. For every HD a character has, when they take a short rest they can roll their HD and gain roll+con HP. Every time you take a long rest you regain 1/2 of your number of HD to use for this purpose. It's not exactly the same but you gain another daily use every time you level up so it can potentially be quite a bit of healing if you roll well (or rolled poorly when you leveled).
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Sep 21, 2014 23:43
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Tactical Bonnet posted:This mechanic is sort of there in the short rest action. For every HD a character has, when they take a short rest they can roll their HD and gain roll+con HP. Every time you take a long rest you regain 1/2 of your number of HD to use for this purpose. Its exactly the same, except about five times more fiddly, more unreliable, and full of pointless stat tracking. In other words 5E in a nutshell.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:15
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That short rest bit and healing surges are in fact not at all similar. It doesn't allow in combat healing, it doesn't limit healing, and it's fiddly as gently caress for no reason.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:18
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Piell posted:That short rest bit and healing surges are in fact not at all similar. It doesn't allow in combat healing, it doesn't limit healing, and it's fiddly as gently caress for no reason. Oh, it doesn't limit? My mistake, I figured it'd be limited by how many HD you had in total, so you'd get one "surge" at level 1, 20 at level 20, etc. I take it back this mechanic is even stupider than I thought.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:19
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Grimpond posted:I think most of us are aware that the conga line isn't a common way for fights to happen; the point is that there are situations where the RAW actively work against the Fighter's ability to fight, because even if they can access the same move-attack-move as anyone else, they are still a fighter with only one mode of agency, which is I attack the thing. They have no real ability outside of certain, very specific situations to direct the flow of a combat encounter. Right, but that's only become an issue due to 4e's setup, correct? Or were people complaining in 1e/2e/3e/3.5e about fighters not being able to draw in all attacks to themselves? I just think you're making mountains out of molehills with the loss of 4e powers w/r/t fighters.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:29
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Hell, it's not just fighters. Everybody who fights in melee has been knocked back to "I attack," and since spells will just straight-up end a battle now, casters aren't interesting any more either.
Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Sep 22, 2014 |
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Sep 22, 2014 00:32
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Was there a good reason to gut the Fighter's tanking toolbox? I mean, does it make anyone happy other than some people who don't play Fighters?
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Sep 22, 2014 00:33
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mastershakeman posted:Right, but that's only become an issue due to 4e's setup, correct? Or were people complaining in 1e/2e/3e/3.5e about fighters not being able to draw in all attacks to themselves? I just think you're making mountains out of molehills with the loss of 4e powers w/r/t fighters. Oh yeah, I guess I am kind of making a big deal out of fighters losing the ability to contribute in real and meaningful ways in this imaginary land of magic and whimsy where wizards can poo poo out lightning and clerics and druids commune with their moon gods to bring the wrath of their chosen deity of worship to bear. My bad.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:34
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Grimpond posted:Oh yeah, I guess I am kind of making a big deal out of fighters losing the ability to contribute in real and meaningful ways in this imaginary land of magic and whimsy where wizards can poo poo out lightning and clerics and druids commune with their moon gods to bring the wrath of their chosen deity of worship to bear. No, I totally get the loss of agency. I just think the hypothetical conga line is a really bad example compared to "all the enemies spread out and focus fire the casters" or whatever else. I honestly think the best way to solve things is to make all melee classes skill monkeys.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:42
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mastershakeman posted:Right, but that's only become an issue due to 4e's setup, correct? Or were people complaining in 1e/2e/3e/3.5e about fighters not being able to draw in all attacks to themselves? I just think you're making mountains out of molehills with the loss of 4e powers w/r/t fighters.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:44
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mastershakeman posted:No, I totally get the loss of agency. I just think the hypothetical conga line is a really bad example compared to "all the enemies spread out and focus fire the casters" or whatever else. Even if an actual conga line situation is highly unlikely, it's main purpose is to illustrate, in this instance, how the fighters are losing even more. It's a hypothetical scenario that can still totally occur with the RAW.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:46
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mastershakeman posted:No, I totally get the loss of agency. I just think the hypothetical conga line is a really bad example compared to "all the enemies spread out and focus fire the casters" or whatever else. Getting back to your quip about longbows, there's still technically cover rules in this TotM game. Naturally, determining who has how much cover and from who/what is Up To The DM.
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Sep 22, 2014 00:47
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So RAW is there anything stopping a mid to high level party from buying health potions by the gallon, strapping them to the back of a donkey, and then never worrying about out of combat healing or HD ever again? Because in 3ed you could do that from like level 4 or 5 onwards with standard wealth per level.
Vorpal Cat fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Sep 22, 2014 |
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Sep 22, 2014 00:51
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