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SilverMike posted:Could you not just allow everyone to tweak their stats by +1/-1 off the racial baseline and be happy with that? The above post, traits ala fallout is a good way to do that.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:23
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SilverMike posted:Could you not just allow everyone to tweak their stats by +1/-1 off the racial baseline and be happy with that? Typically, people find games more enjoyable when mechanics follow theme instead of simply being tacked on. You could also say your character hates wearing hats instead of "is a minotaur with horns"
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Oct 1, 2014 17:24
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Mechanics follow theme: my Human is not the same as all other Humans. The bonus/malus for anyone reflects this, whereas making the bonus/malus gender-based does not.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:28
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esquilax posted:Typically, people find games more enjoyable when mechanics follow theme instead of simply being tacked on. You could also say your character hates wearing hats instead of "is a minotaur with horns" I don't know anyone who relates to minotaurs or who might not like someone dictating the limits of being one.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:28
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:As someone mentioned, the shopkeepers lower prices for make characters based on their Charisma, but for female characters they care about Appearance instead.  I swear I can follow conversations.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:33
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SilverMike posted:What does it add to a game to have gender-differentiated stats? Would it detract from a game that already had those if a patch removed them? This kind of attitude seems to be core to Crawl's philosophy, i.e. "does it add anything I arbitrarily assign value to? No, then delete". It is the primary reason I dislike that game and find it lacks character. It's not an objectively bad thing, I just don't enjoy the result. Again, if I could see anything that was actually hurtful I wouldn't argue against its removal. +1 str to a male character / +1 dex to female doesn't seem to hurt anyone except the terminally sensitive. The whole adom thing seems to be "shopkeepers are racist, sexist assholes", as in: if you're a different race - higher prices; if you're an ugly female, or a man who isn't charming - higher prices. It's not saying "women can only be respected for their looks, men for their mouths", it's saying "these shopkeepers are loving dicks". Maybe it's just me that sees it that way though.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:38
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esquilax posted:Typically, people I, too, can pull pseudo-truths out of my rear end to support my weak argument. esquilax posted:someone from a tribe on the coast of Finland is better at fishing and swimming than someone from inland Finland I'm starting to see a pattern in your posting.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:40
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lordfrikk posted:I, too, can pull pseudo-truths out of my rear end to support my weak argument. That's an actual example from the roguelike Unreal World, and no one has ever given a poo poo about that
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Oct 1, 2014 17:41
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esquilax posted:Further mechanical customization of your character, in the same way that Dwarves might have higher CON or someone from a tribe on the coast of Finland is better at fishing and swimming than someone from inland Finland (who are stronger and stupider). Well, yeah that's why Redguards have stealth and +5 to chaos dunks. They're just better at it. That and getting shot by police.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:42
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lordfrikk posted:I, too, can pull pseudo-truths out of my rear end to support my weak argument. You are mad. Start over in another thread? (Y/n)
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Oct 1, 2014 17:42
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Inuits are much better at fishing than midwesterners. Mods???
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Oct 1, 2014 17:43
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Jeffrey posted:You are mad. Start over in another thread? (Y/n) Can I choose a new race/class/gender for the new thread?
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Oct 1, 2014 17:44
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Jeffrey posted:Inuits are much better at fishing than midwesterners. Mods??? At that point, you're better off just making that sort of thing a background or trait.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:47
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Potsticker posted:At that point, you're better off just making that sort of thing a background or trait. You mean a background such as "my character is from the coast of Finland so he is better at fishing and swimming"? I'm sorry people have already decided that is insensitive try again
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Oct 1, 2014 17:49
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Inuits and Midwesterners are too different species apparently?
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Oct 1, 2014 17:50
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esquilax posted:You mean a background such as "my character is from the coast of Finland so he is better at fishing and swimming"? I'm sorry people have already decided that is insensitive try again It would be less problematic if it was just "grew up on the coast" or "grew up on a farm."
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Oct 1, 2014 17:52
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esquilax posted:That's an actual example from the roguelike Unreal World, and no one has ever given a poo poo about that That doesn't make it any less of a problem, it's just a niche game with small player base. Despite that it's still a great game, though.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:06
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esquilax posted:That's an actual example from the roguelike Unreal World, and no one has ever given a poo poo about that Does it make the argument less valid if we don't pull everything we have issues with in one post? Notwithstanding it's false equivalence. Saying that one tribe who lives next to the river is better at fishing over this tribe which lives inland and tends to farm is not the same as saying on gender holds this advantage over another and this disadvantage for the sheer sake of its gender. Unreal World goes into some detail about their tribes, and there's a clear logical thread to follow. When it comes to gendered advantage it's presented as is, because the creator decided. lordfrikk posted:That doesn't make it any less of a problem, it's just a niche game with small player base. Despite that it's still a great game, though. Instead of acting pissy at his posting, maybe explain how it's problematic? Pladdicus fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 18:14
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Sexual dimorphism is real.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:15
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Orcs are not.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:18
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Oil of Paris posted:Sexual dimorphism is real. This is not the focus of the current argument. But why say +1 str, +1 agi, and not +1 con. It's arbitrary and also pretty inaccurate to sum it up like that. Then there's the matter of, with all the fantastical elements in the game, why take a part of game design to highlight this for accuracy sake?
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Oct 1, 2014 18:18
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What I wonder about are the people who play games where male characters get +stremf and say to themselves "Yes, this is how it should be, I'm so glad this game does this." I would imagine such a person has other very interesting traits. Put something like that in your game and all you're doing is giving your female players a reason to feel bad. Can you really imagine someone recommending your game to someone else based on the fact that the women start out weaker than the men? "Hey for all of you brothers who are tired of playing those blue pill beta roguelikes, have I got something for you!!"
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Oct 1, 2014 18:25
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I REALLY LIKE CRYPT OF THE NECRODANCER.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:27
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madjackmcmad posted:What I wonder about are the people who play games where male characters get +stremf and say to themselves "Yes, this is how it should be, I'm so glad this game does this." I would imagine such a person has other very interesting traits. I doubt there are many people at all who say that - it is more just the lazy acceptance of 'well, that is just the way things are' that you see in this thread.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:29
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Bogart posted:I REALLY LIKE CRYPT OF THE NECRODANCER. Sorry, can you reword that in a form of a gender equality question?
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Oct 1, 2014 18:29
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MrBims posted:I doubt there are many people at all who say that - it is more just the lazy acceptance of 'well, that is just the way things are' that you see in this thread. And this is exactly the problem I think, it (in a small way, I'll grant) perpetuates a lazy view of gender. Kanfy posted:Sorry, can you reword that in a form of a gender equality question? I'm sorry we're using the roguelike discussion to talk about an aspect of roguelikes you don't care about  Bogart posted:I REALLY LIKE CRYPT OF THE NECRODANCER. It's really good! That might be why! I like slower paced roguelikes so I haven't really dug into it. I like my mini-tactical experiences to be slow paced.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:32
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Bogart posted:I REALLY LIKE CRYPT OF THE NECRODANCER. same, it's incredibly detailed for how simple the premise is also, madjackmcmad is correct and anyone who thinks otherwise is probably more of a goony weirdo than they'd want to admit which more or less sums up the last 30 posts or so
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Oct 1, 2014 18:33
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Pladdicus posted:I'm sorry we're using the roguelike discussion to talk about an aspect of roguelikes you don't care about My real gripe is that when you see a bunch of new posts in the roguelike thread you hope they're about a cool new roguelike that sprang up out of nowhere but then really it's just an argument Devs can put whatever they want in a game. Make a roguelike where female characters only get one attack, Titty Shake. See how it goes and get back to us.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:39
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Pladdicus posted:
There's an optional class in it that doesn't require you to play real time, you move when you want and enemies move timers just tick when you move.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:44
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madjackmcmad posted:My real gripe is that when you see a bunch of new posts in the roguelike thread you hope they're about a cool new roguelike that sprang up out of nowhere but then really it's just an argument Does it read like an argument? I thought it had turned into a nice discussion despite some posters' fears. And wasn't there some roguelike like that discussed a ways back that went super overboard with things like high heels and if a male character wore them they got creepy weird transexual abilities?
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Oct 1, 2014 18:45
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Potsticker posted:Does it read like an argument? I thought it had turned into a nice discussion despite some posters' fears. Yes
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Oct 1, 2014 18:48
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madjackmcmad posted:What I wonder about are the people who play games where male characters get +stremf and say to themselves "Yes, this is how it should be, I'm so glad this game does this." Female characters get +AGI. Why is strength better than agility? madjackmcmad posted:I would imagine such a person has other very interesting traits. Might just be your imagination then. Who knows? madjackmcmad posted:Put something like that in your game and all you're doing is giving your female players a reason to feel bad. Why would you assume only female players would play female characters? I find that assumption a bit... peculiar. madjackmcmad posted:Can you really imagine someone recommending your game to someone else based on the fact that the women start out weaker than the men? So physical strength is the be-all end-all now? How come? I'm not into Rogue Survivor, but is Agility useless in that game?
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Oct 1, 2014 18:48
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andrew smash posted:There's an optional class in it that doesn't require you to play real time, you move when you want and enemies move timers just tick when you move. Is this fun? I mean, I'm all for it existing for those who want to take their time (and/or want to check out Necrodancer's content but don't have the appropriate skillset to get far in it), but it seems like it'd strip away a lot of the difficulty.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:48
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begedin posted:Female characters get +AGI. Why is strength better than agility? I didn't assume only female players would play female characters. Also you are an amazing and magical person.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:53
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Pladdicus posted:I'm sorry we're using the roguelike discussion to talk about an aspect of roguelikes you don't care about Since you used a sad smilie, I'll forgive you this time. But okay, personally I think stat differences between genders in roguelikes is a Dumb Thing That Shouldn't Be There but at the same time the vast majority of games don't have that, and from the people who play those games the vast majority of people don't care one way or another. I just cannot buy that your average woman honestly gives a drat if a female character gets +1 to one number instead of another in a super niche and probably old video game, nor that your average man feels somehow more manly or powerful because their male character gets str instead of dex or whatever. Again, it's a stupid thing, yes, but I don't believe it's worth such a prolonged argument. Kanfy fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 18:56
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As someone who never speaks to women, and has sex with his anime pillow w/ fleshlight insert, I think
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Oct 1, 2014 19:06
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Kanfy posted:Again, it's a stupid thing, yes, but I don't believe it's worth such a prolonged argument. Most of the "prolonged argument" is people griping about the fact that it came up. Like you
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Oct 1, 2014 19:08
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Turtlicious posted:As someone who never speaks to women, and has sex with his anime pillow w/ fleshlight insert, I think Used "women" to refer to females. D+, see me after class.
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Oct 1, 2014 19:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Is this fun? I mean, I'm all for it existing for those who want to take their time (and/or want to check out Necrodancer's content but don't have the appropriate skillset to get far in it), but it seems like it'd strip away a lot of the difficulty. It's less fun. The main feature of the game is following the beat, so most of the game disappears when you play that character. Fe: and clearly the game would be much more fun if the main character had -1 strength and +1 agility. 
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Oct 1, 2014 19:13
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begedin posted:Female characters get +AGI. Why is strength better than agility? You'll notice I never said which gender held and advantage or even argued that it was a total advantage disadvantage!  This isn't about games making females CLEARLY INSUPERIOR and that all roguelikes that do it are secret training from MRA camps or anything like that. The point is, it's weird to do it because it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense logically, and that it's doesn't really fit or have much an effect at all. Also it depends, if you want to be a melee fighter character, str is very helpful. It's max damage, which if it's high enough allows you to take on zombies alot easier. Agl on the other hand, helps you evade and avoid conflict, scavenge easier etc. So if you want to make a solid melee fighter, male is the way to go and vice versa for a sneaky character. +1 is significant.Why is it bad? To me it encourages a lazy view of the unique properties of gender, and that it exists seemingly to say that there's a difference and sometimes what it says about that difference is either pointless, insulting or strange. Also the answers to the question of why bother adding it are often troubling. andrew smash posted:There's an optional class in it that doesn't require you to play real time, you move when you want and enemies move timers just tick when you move. Interesting, I'd of imagined that would strip a lot from the game. How does it play? madjackmcmad posted:My real gripe is that when you see a bunch of new posts in the roguelike thread you hope they're about a cool new roguelike that sprang up out of nowhere but then really it's just an argument I'm sorry, but where do we go to talk about this? Making an entirely different thread for an afternoons chat on stat modifiers tied to gender in roguelikes seems a bit niche. I get it, it's like the iOS thread but I'd hate to encourage an attitude of "NO SERIOUS TALK". Kanfy posted:Since you used a sad smilie, I'll forgive you this time. Prolonged? It's been like two hours on an internet forum. People seem to equate posts to effort, there's no shortage of 'em fellas! I assure you This is the roguelike megathread, I assume discussions of all kinds (except what constitutes a roguelike, jesus) are welcome, given the fact there's been a pretty lively discussion for a bit now.As for whether any woman give a drat, I doubt that anyone really gives much of a drat, the argument isn't "This is bad because it makes me mad!" It's, why is this done and what does it mean that it is done, and whaddya think about it. The only people I see overeacting about this issue are people who aren't actually engaging in the discussion in the first place, which seems silly. Just don't and it'll peter out. Pladdicus fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 19:17
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