|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't think it's an abortion analogy, and in any case women did get to make the decision. Like I guess that's there on a superficial level, but the whole "pre-emptively strike an unknown target with nukes" element and the overall themes of the series makes me think it's more of a military thing. I mean yeah, there's certainly a militaristic element to it, but I think the episode made it clear that it was a matter of survival. I don't think Moffat intended for the analogy to exist but that doesn't stop it from being right there in the open with a crosshair on its stupid face. computer parts posted:And then the Doctor threw him into a Black Hole at the end for daring to escape. No one ever said he wasn't an rear end in a top hat. He tried to parley, too. Gotta give him that.
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 12:41 |
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I mean yeah, there's certainly a militaristic element to it, but I think the episode made it clear that it was a matter of survival. I don't think Moffat intended for the analogy to exist but that doesn't stop it from being right there in the open with a crosshair on its stupid face. But it's awful as a moral even if the analogy doesn't exist. The analogy just sort of takes it to a new level of horrible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:13
|
|
|
vegetables posted:But it's awful as a moral even if the analogy doesn't exist. The analogy just sort of takes it to a new level of horrible. "The right to choose is only valid when the right choice is made." Goons, on abortion rights.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I think they should have made it clear that the "shell" would be harmless from the start, so that the question becomes "is it OK to pre-emptively kill the creature in case it wants to attack us". That would have made the theme more coherent, since that's basically the decision they were discussing. If the Doctor could have just CHIMED IN that hey, yeah, the shell is totally going to just vanish after the baby is born and won't affect anything, that would have fixed a lot of issues. Mostly because with everything we KNOW about the moon, everything the episode SHOWS us, it should have loving obliterated the planet. The moon, even if it is hollow inside, is still a sturdy enough structure to support moon landings and an increase in gravity by SIX TIMES without so much as cracking. It was not an egg shell-it was made of rocks, or at least coated in them. Those really should have hosed the Earth over six times, let alone the gravity of the planet sized beasty moving ANYWHERE NEAR the planet and how that would stir poo poo up. But ignore that and focus on the problem that you cannot science away at a glance-that those fragments should have destroyed the human race. This isn't about if abortion is ever right- not unless the baby also has a hypothetical bomb strapped to its belly that's going to blow up the hospital. And the Doctor could have easily just taken a short jaunt into the future with Clara and seen for himself if he truly did not know what would happen to the shell. The fact that it did magically just vanish and then JUST as magically the baby laid a new moon, off screen, that's the SAME SIZE AS ITSELF, is just lovely, awful writing. Doctor Who can do better than this. The scene of Clara calling out the Doctor was more than deserved and just about the only good thing to happen in the episode.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Do you think The Impossible Planet was primarily about the virtues of capital punishment too? I haven't watched it in years and can't remember, sorry. But seriously, if that bit of Kill the Moon wasn't about abortion, then I'd be astonished. I mean, 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
computer parts posted:And then the Doctor threw him into a Black Hole at the end for daring to escape. He was strongly implied to literally be the Devil and the bane of all existence, and at least acted the part pretty well. How do you feel about the extra-judicial execution of Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
Other things aside, did the Doctor say that Courtney becomes president? ...Cause isn't she British?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
Burkion posted:
It actually was cracking, that's what the images they found in the base were about.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
vegetables posted:But it's awful as a moral even if the analogy doesn't exist. The analogy just sort of takes it to a new level of horrible. Without the analogy drawn, I think it works fairly well actually. How do you decide if you have so much agency that you can exterminate a unique lifeform? I'd like to think it was more about conservation than conservatism, at least. Arsonist Daria fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Oct 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:17
|
|
|
A Steampunk Gent posted:He was strongly implied to literally be the Devil and the bane of all existence, and at least acted the part pretty well. How do you feel about the extra-judicial execution of Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings? "Oh good, we can execute people, but only if we depict them as literally the embodiment of Evil first".
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:18
|
|
|
computer parts posted:It actually was cracking, that's what the images they found in the base were about. It was cracking because of the baby though-not because of them landing on it. I may have misheard, but weren't they also drilling into the moon? that research station? Bad science is bad science-I can and would bitch about the 'germs' all day long and how moronic that was, but bad writing is something else entirely.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:19
|
|
|
Burkion posted:Bad science is bad science-I can and would bitch about the 'germs' all day long and how moronic that was, but bad writing is something else entirely. Hahahahah, I almost forgot about spider germs with that weird-rear end ending. The gently caress was with that? They had teeth for gently caress's sake.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Why did he keep saying 100 million years?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Burkion posted:It was cracking because of the baby though-not because of them landing on it. Yeah, I thought you meant that the increase in gravity/mass alone would cause the shell to collapse on itself. They were doing mineral surveying but apparently they didn't find anything of value at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
EatinCake posted:Other things aside, did the Doctor say that Courtney becomes president? ...Cause isn't she British? Either the Doctor was lying / bullshitting, or she's got US citizenship, or there's a referendum, or the writer didn't know US law.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
Burkion posted:And the Doctor could have easily just taken a short jaunt into the future with Clara and seen for himself if he truly did not know what would happen to the shell. Unkempt posted:I haven't watched it in years and can't remember, sorry. But seriously, if that bit of Kill the Moon wasn't about abortion, then I'd be astonished. I mean, Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Without the analogy drawn, I think it works fairly well actually. How do you decide if you have so much agency that you can exterminate a unique lifeform? I'd like to think it was more about conservation that conservatism, at least.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
Also, how the hell is the moon getting more massive? I don't care if they baby monster is growing, eggs are a closed system. This whole episode was stupid and a bit racist.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:24
|
|
|
Burkion posted:And the Doctor could have easily just taken a short jaunt into the future with Clara and seen for himself if he truly did not know what would happen to the shell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJkTDPSenBg
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm pretty sure if The Doctor did that then the events on the moon would become a "fixed point" (since he already knows the outcome), and he'd be unable to go back and change it. Otherwise The Doctor could resolve 90% of episodes by just doing that. Bullshit for one reason. They play fast and loose with the rules all the goddamn time. This was something the Doctor did in Pyramids of Mars actually- he took a quick visit to the future to show Sarah Jane what would happen if Sutkeh got free. Found a desolate, barren Earth. You can't play fast and loose with the laws of gravity and common sense the way the episode did (and also expect us to get invested in the choice) and expect us not to question they you aren't treating the OTHER rules the same.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:26
|
|
|
Burkion posted:Bullshit for one reason. They play fast and loose with the rules all the goddamn time. You absolutely can by expecting the audience to just loving roll with it. You can't tell me you haven't done this a dozen other times with this show, this episode was just weird and made you think about it harder.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:28
|
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Without the analogy drawn, I think it works fairly well actually. How do you decide if you have so much agency that you can exterminate a unique lifeform? ...very, very easily? Perhaps I just differ from lots of people on this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:30
|
|
|
Oh, I keep meaning to mention it, but I loved the Doctor's little speech about not killing Hitler. I forgot entirely what it was, but I just remember I liked it. It made me laugh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
vegetables posted:...very, very easily? Perhaps I just differ from lots of people on this. I mean, I'd make the same decision, but it's a worthy question. The only thing that would really make us choose humanity over it is instinct. For all we know that butterfly is Space Jesus.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I mean, I'd make the same decision, but it's a worthy question. The only thing that would really make us choose humanity over it is instinct. For all we know that butterfly is Space Jesus. I would also say the decision was very, very easy if it was a human Moon-fetus over a butterfly civilization, for what it's worth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:34
|
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:You absolutely can by expecting the audience to just loving roll with it. You can't tell me you haven't done this a dozen other times with this show, this episode was just weird and made you think about it harder. There in lies the problem. It makes me think about it harder-and find more and more problems with it. Problems with very easy answers. Have the fact that the moon is about to shatter be a non issue. Have the Doctor or even the scientists explicitly say or discover that the moon fragments will not damage the Earth. Make the issue about what it SHOULD have been about. Killing something that hasn't been born yet, before it becomes a threat. IF it becomes a threat. The moon stuff just adds too much weight to the 'kill it' side of things, and trying to argue that it's a shell is moronic because, as even the scientists note, the moon is still made up of MOON STUFF-IE rocks. And even as a shell, it's a freaking heavy, dangerous thing to have shattering next to a planet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:35
|
|
|
McDragon posted:Oh, I keep meaning to mention it, but I loved the Doctor's little speech about not killing Hitler. I forgot entirely what it was, but I just remember I liked it. It just made me remember "Let's Kill Hitler", which makes this the second worst episode ever
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:35
|
|
|
I can't speak about the classic series because I haven't watched it (and in any case I think it's ok for the revival to do things differently and not be weighed down by decades of different writers with different ideas), but basically the entire revival has worked on the principle that "time travelers cannot change the outcome of events they know about". Rose couldn't save her father in Father's Day. The Doctor couldn't save Adelaide in The Water of Mars. The Doctor also made it abundantly clear that he and Donna couldn't save the general populace of Pompeii. Going against this would create a paradox (and would also ruin the narrative of the show by making every problem trivially easy to solve). The main exception I can think of is the Sound of Drums two-parter, but that involved The Master specifically loving up the TARDIS and reality in general to "keep the paradox in place", and I doubt The Doctor would ever want to do that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:37
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I can't speak about the classic series because I haven't watched it (and in any case I think it's ok for the revival to do things differently and not be weighed down by decades of different writers with different ideas), but basically the entire revival has worked on the principle that "time travelers cannot change the outcome of events they know about". Rose couldn't save her father in Father's Day. The Doctor couldn't save Adelaide in The Water of Mars. The Doctor also made it abundantly clear that he and Donna couldn't save the general populace of Pompeii. Going against this would create a paradox (and would also ruin the narrative of the show by making every problem trivially easy to solve). See I want to agree with that, but that was also one of the main elements of the loving Christmas Carol that pissed me off to no end, so I can't win with this show no matter WHAT some days. (Also the Doctor being an unBELIEVEABLE rear end in a top hat and not taking the sick girl to any of the numerous future hospitals and getting her better in their many, MANY trips)
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:40
|
|
|
vegetables posted:I would also say the decision was very, very easy if it was a human Moon-fetus over a butterfly civilization, for what it's worth. Again, yeah, it's just that risking everything for another is kind of the point. It's demonstrating a willingness to sacrifice everything for another that is supposed to demonstrate humanity's better nature. It's utterly unfair, but it would be meaningless were it not. I don't think it's a particularly great message but it is what it is. Burkion posted:There in lies the problem. I was totally all about the quandary until it turned out that it meant nothing at all, then it was bullshit. Even if the moon fragments didn't somehow create huge craters and stir up all kinds of dust on Earth, its absence would be enough to mean something. Then the stupid space butterfly laid a new egg the exact same density as the moon so nothing changed. gently caress that. That's the only thing that really bugged me, though, not if the Doctor really knew poo poo or if the space egg should have disintegrated. It's all about the dumb handwave.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:42
|
|
|
Cliff Racer posted:The Doctor wasn't respecting humanity's right at all. He dropped two time travelers in on the expedition which had already made its decision, when they failed to get their way they had the entire Earth vote and when Earth voted against them Clara said gently caress that and overruled them anyway. Then the Doctor showed up and congratulated everyone on making their decision. The smart decision would have been killing the space dragon and thats what I wished would have happened. I never said he was right in feeling that way. Just that Capaldi's performance as he said that was great.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:48
|
|
|
Striking Yak posted:And that "my granny used to post on Tumblr" line doesn't really make sense if it was 2049. Astronaut lady looked ~40, so she was born in, say, 2010 to be generous. So her mother would've been born, at the very earliest, in the mid-late 90s. Grandma was on Tumblr before it even existed? The delivery of that line was amazing so it gets a pass here Majorian posted:Also Timothy Dalton's performance basically justified all of Part 2. I don't care that he doesn't do much during it - the man made the Time Lords seem dangerous again just by gloating and scheming (which is pretty impressive when, you know, they're mostly supposed to be extinct). He really is a good actor - it's such a shame that he was in such dreadful Bond movies. They're some of the best Bond movies  Dabir posted:Hang on, how the gently caress was the moon getting more massive? Eggs don't get heavier over time, where was all the extra mass coming from? The question nobody is asking: Could it come from Sunlight? The answer: No - assuming the moon absorbed 100% of the sunlight, that the moon's radius was a constant 1734km, that the moon is never eclipsed by the Earth and that the power of sunlight at the Earth's orbital radius is a constant 1400W/m2, the maximum mass added would have been a measly thirty tons per year
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:50
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:So, because I am a giant nerd, I ran the numbers and, unless I hosed this up, for the moon to have a surface gravity the same as Earth's, the Moon would have to increase its mass by a factor of almost exactly six. I hope I'm missing a joke here or this is really sweet 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:51
|
|
|
Maybe it got hit by a huge spider-germ meteor  Burkion posted:See I want to agree with that, but that was also one of the main elements of the loving Christmas Carol that pissed me off to no end, so I can't win with this show no matter WHAT some days.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:52
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:The question nobody is asking: I don't see why people care so much about the hard science because Doctor Who so flagrantly disregards it all the time. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, and all that. The only reason why the butterfly making GBS threads out a new moon pissed me off was because it was so lazy, not because humanity couldn't have science-magiced up some bullshit around not having a moon in Doctor Who. gently caress, Capaldi even addressed that early on. Doctor Who is not actually sci-fi. It is fantasy which has both space travel and time travel. Any attempt to rope it in with scientific law is a fool's errand.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:56
|
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I don't see why people care so much about the hard science because Doctor Who so flagrantly disregards it all the time. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, and all that. The only reason why the butterfly making GBS threads out a new moon pissed me off was because it was so lazy, not because humanity couldn't have science-magiced up some bullshit around not having a moon in Doctor Who. gently caress, Capaldi even addressed that early on. You directed this at the wrong person because I don't really care, I just really like doing maths
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
Was that the same space dragon they used to save the United Kingdom when humans abandon the earth?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I can't remember A Christmas Carol that well, what aspect of the time travel rules annoyed you? He kept on changing aspects of the guy's character while talking to him, essentially. "Is he nice yet? Well, time to travel back in time to change him again"
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
On the Abortion thing: The story goes out of its way to give the decision-making to three women. The Doctor excuses himself from the narrative. I think that's more than enough effort and consideration to counteract what was probably an originally-accidental anti-choice subtext that was discovered during rewrites and thereafter addressed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Was that the same space dragon they used to save the United Kingdom when humans abandon the earth? No. That was a space whale, this is a space butterfly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 12:41 |
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:You directed this at the wrong person because I don't really care, I just really like doing maths Well hey man, I love me some maths. Just saying Doctor Who gives no shits. DoctorWhat posted:On the Abortion thing: I see what you're getting at, I just think that it's still utterly unfair. Only one of those women has any context at all for what humanity has been going through, and of course she gets shouted down by the ignorant ones (who coincidentally are childless or not actually an adult). It's not even about some ham-fisted abortion metaphor at that point, the other two just have literally no concept about the stakes with which humanity is playing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2014 18:09
|
|