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Basically I'm trying to find a "repeatable" strategy for Deity that can win on any map. Maybe there isn't such a thing(?) and I should stick to Immortal, as you can usually win from any map position there.
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Oct 13, 2014 02:26
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toasterwarrior posted:Ok, lesson learned: don't invade city-states unless eternal war is your goal. Four civilizations went to war with me after I took a CS for my final city Yeah, the AIs treat each City-State as their own nation, and the warmonger penalty for taking a nation's last city is gigantic, especially if you can't mitigate it with "I never liked that rear end in a top hat anyway" modifiers like denunciations or war.
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Oct 13, 2014 02:33
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That's why if you plan on taking a city state by force you do it either very early, preferably before meeting any other civs, or much later when you're on solid footing and have at least a slight tech edge over the next civ.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:26
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Pvt.Scott posted:That's why if you plan on taking a city state by force you do it either very early, preferably before meeting any other civs, or much later when you're on solid footing and have at least a slight tech edge over the next civ. Or right before the Ideology splits start coming into play. The Ideologies seem to practically force a hard-reset of diplomacy.
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Oct 13, 2014 04:04
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alcaras posted:Basically I'm trying to find a "repeatable" strategy for Deity that can win on any map. Maybe there isn't such a thing(?) and I should stick to Immortal, as you can usually win from any map position there. Four-city Tradition -> 2 Patronage -> 3 Rationalism -> Freedom as Babylon is probably the most repeatable. Poland may also be good - take more Patronage with their free policies. Korea's also strong.
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Oct 13, 2014 09:00
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Hey just letting you know that you should try the Polynesian civ split mod - it splits Polynesia into Hawaii Tonga the Maori and easter islands. As a new Zealander I love it and the civ s are well balanced.
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Oct 13, 2014 12:15
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I have won a few times on deity and play exclusively on it now. On pangea maps and standard speeds. It is ridicolously hard though, and you need to get lucky unless you are at Maddjinn level. I find early warmongering to be almost impossible. Even civs like India has lots of units, and the composite bowmen I am able to produce are not enough to take them out quickly enough. They keep getting ridicolous science while the war is ongoing and Pikemen and Knights are not that far away for the deity AI. The times I have tried it I have not accomplished much. I haven't even tried to do a late game domination victory as I don't have the patience for the endless shuffling of units. Science and culture is possible, however you are dependant on there not being a runaway civ that just crushes that area. Culture seems possible even then, with some luck with getting culture wonders and maybe picking up the Louvre and beelining for the Internet and Airports. Science does not work for me if one of the civs take rationalism and build the Porcelain Tower. Diplomacy seems to be the easiest if the game is relatively peaceful and enough citystates survive into the endgame. Even if an AI has 30000 gold in reserve they will not burn it on buying citystates. I guess the point of my post is that I agree with the above posters, you need to get lucky to win a standard game on Deity. And in my experience you need to follow a standard tradition opener. The times I have tried honor, liberty and piety has just been pathetic. Just fall way too far behind in science.
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Oct 13, 2014 12:48
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That's why you play with mods that make Liberty, Piety and Honour not-worthless.
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Oct 13, 2014 13:51
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Ok well I started a Spain game on Immortal, send my scouts out and at turn 10 find the great barrier reef. Settle that, then 10 or so turns later find Lake Victoria. Took the faith from natural wonders pantheon so now I have 2 4 food, 2 prod, 2 gold, 4 science, 8 faith tiles, and a 12 food 8 faith tile in my empire. And of course the 1500 gold from finding all those wonders first. Is it safe to assume that I've already won the game at this point?
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Oct 13, 2014 13:52
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Is it safe to assume that I've already won the game at this point? Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Immortal No, but you've got a good start. Keep playing and see how the AI cheats to catch up.
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Oct 13, 2014 13:57
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berryjon posted:No, but you've got a good start. Keep playing and see how the AI cheats to catch up. This makes me think of CiV with a rubberband balancing mechanic. Oh, you've conquered 90% of the world by the Renaissance? Your last target inexplicably has tanks and bombers. Massively ahead on science? Everyone elses' spies become unstoppable and can steal a tech in a single turn. Just about to assemble the spaceship? Bam, You know. Fun.
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Oct 13, 2014 14:48
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Gort posted:That's why you play with mods that make Liberty, Piety and Honour not-worthless. And of course there's always the pyramid pillaging exploit 
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Oct 13, 2014 15:15
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Well, there is a tech catchup mechanic, as techs will get a little bit of their beaker quota filled based on how any civs have it already. Then there's that world congress policy you can pass. Scholars in Residence ? Which does a similar thing. And trade route science based on techs the target has that you don't know and espionage. So there's lots of tools for a civ behind in tech to get a leg up . Not really rubberbanding, though.
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Oct 13, 2014 15:21
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I really want to try that "small" Piety diplo strategy that got posted earlier precisely because it uses those catch-up mechanics and is something else besides grabbing and holding the tech lead or warmongering. I have four-city Tradition wired into me so deeply, though, and trying to play anything else feels weird and gross like I'm doing things wrong.
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Oct 13, 2014 16:30
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It's really not that bad to open Liberty or Honor or Piety as long as you know what you're losing from Tradition that you need to compensate for. Rationalism later is nice, too, but not essential. You can beat the game going all in on Piety-Exploration-Autocracy or what the gently caress ever. You just have to ride your edge as hard as you can, whereas Tradition is comfortable and safe and good for most approaches. If you're bored of Tradition, double down on Honor and farm barbs and choose a city-state to perma-war with. Carthage is great for early money. They have the strongest Trireme replacement and once you get them the three Coastal Raider promotions you get a fat pile of cash every time you attack a coastal city. Have 3-4 of those rotating out to heal and you can make bank. Have fun, exploit dumb things! E: also try starting in a later era if the early game has you down. Pvt.Scott fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 16:48
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berryjon posted:No, but you've got a good start. Keep playing and see how the AI cheats to catch up. The AI's main advantage is their stronger start, once you catch up to the AI they're toast. The only way to lose a start like that is getting hit with a turn 50 rush before you have a chance to build a military--but with that much money you can buy most of the military you need.
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Oct 13, 2014 17:27
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berryjon posted:No, but you've got a good start. Keep playing and see how the AI cheats to catch up. I'd say the opposite, playing at the harder difficulties is more about you playing catch up and then snow balling your advantage. I've never seen an AI 'effectively' catch up to me once I've begun to pull ahead.
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Oct 13, 2014 17:40
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So what is the build/tech/policy order for the standard Tradition 4 city opener?
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Oct 13, 2014 17:42
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I decided to try to go against my natural urge which turns every game into a domination fest and am going for a peaceful victory this time. I started up Emperor, huge Pangea, as Babylon and am consciously making nice nice with all my neighbors. So it turns out I don't really have any neighbors except Harry Bluetooth (everyone else is literally 30+ tiles away - although Shaka is next closest). Of course true to form eventually Denmark's horde attacks only to die futilely against the walls of Babylon under a hail of composite bow arrows. Normally I would now punish him for his treachery by exterminating his puny civilization, but I fear that will take me down the Domination rabbit hole again. Is there a way to get Denmark to back off and make peace without invading and taking a few cities first?
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Oct 13, 2014 17:47
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I really don't think Liberty is that bad in vanilla BNW, and I've seen some advocacy for it in the higher difficulty levels. Sure, you don't really want to go wide, but it helps you establish the few cities you are going to settle quickly and cheaply, which helps their development and prevents the AI from gobbling up all the good land. The only real issue is that its opener is much worse. It's really bad. Happiness is the main problem with going wide, and the "wide" social policy tree gives you less happiness than the tall one. Think about it this way. Tradition gives you half your capital size in free happiness, Liberty gives you 1 per city. In order to catch up to the free happiness a moderate, size 30 Tradition capital generates, Liberty requires a 15-city empire. Meanwhile Tradition also gets vast gold bonuses (half your capital in size plus the maintenance cost of four units, which is 20 GPT easily), growth bonuses, free monuments, free aqueducts, faster border expansion, is faster out of the gate due to a better opener... It's not even close. In my balance mod I literally doubled the happiness Liberty gets and you still sometimes think, "Maybe I would have been better off going Tradition instead". It's crazy. alcaras posted:So what is the build/tech/policy order for the standard Tradition 4 city opener? Policy order: Tradition opener - free monuments - +2 food/+10% growth in capital - happiness/gold in capital - your choice in order of the last two. Tech order: Pottery for granaries - whatever you need to work your nearby resources - construction if you feel threatened, philosophy if you don't, then the other - civil service - metal casting - education - etc Capital build order: Warrior - worker - granary - random poo poo until your capital is size 5 - settler - worker - settler - worker - settler - worker - library - national college Other cities build order: Granary - library - colosseum - stuff ----- Try not to neglect your army, I like to have four warriors early on so the AI doesn't think I'm too much of a pushover. Gort fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 17:48
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Oliax posted:Of course true to form eventually Denmark's horde attacks only to die futilely against the walls of Babylon under a hail of composite bow arrows. Normally I would now punish him for his treachery by exterminating his puny civilization, but I fear that will take me down the Domination rabbit hole again. Is there a way to get Denmark to back off and make peace without invading and taking a few cities first? Everything I've heard says that once he invades you once and is repulsed, he'll get along with you just fine. He doesn't really mind getting his nose bloodied in a war.
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Oct 13, 2014 17:48
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Don't worry about taking cities in a war. As long as you give them away afterwards, you should lose a fair chunk of the warmonger penalty. Give them to someone who has no chance of winning and you'll earn a friend for life.
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Oct 13, 2014 17:57
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alcaras posted:So what is the build/tech/policy order for the standard Tradition 4 city opener? Build Scout, monument,worker/granary( whichever gets you the most food fastest) Library, Settler, Settler, Settler. Only make and plant the third Settler if you have a good spot with a new luxury to pit it in. Otherwise, three cities is fine for now. Build granaries and libraries in all of your new cities, so you can build the National College and send food to your capital. Make some caravans or cargo ships and begin shipping food to your capital. Do this the entire game and never stop.Maybe build some archers or something now. Tech Whatever tech gets you access to at least one of your luxuries, followed by Pottery and then Writing. Pick up Animal Husbandry next to reveal horses and open up caravans. You'll want to unlock and build the National College and then Engineering for the free Aqueducts. Research any tech to unlock remaining luxuries and the do whatever. Policy Opener, Legalism, Landed Elite, Monarchy, Aristocracy, Oligarchy. If you absolutely must have an early wonder for whatever reason, take Aristocracy first.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:01
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What happens to your units when they are in another civ's territory and you declare peace or open borders expires? Can they just stay there?
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Oct 13, 2014 18:08
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Mentos Dan posted:What happens to your units when they are in another civ's territory and you declare peace or open borders expires? Can they just stay there? They get shunted out of enemy territory, usually back into your own borders.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:14
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Pvt.Scott posted:They get shunted out of enemy territory, usually back into your own borders. I thought they just got teleported to the closest space they're allowed to be in. Certainly the game doesn't let you pull that "get open borders, march army up to their capital, declare war" trick. It didn't work in Civ4 either; I can't speak to Civ3.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:29
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IIRC you could do that in Civ 3, also there was no truce timer so you could extort peace from someone and then immediately declare war again. Also, you could move into enemy territory and all you could do about it was threaten to go to war, so your rear end in a top hat neighbor that build nothing but settlers and archers could move right through you territory and drop a city in that one mountain range you didn't put anything into and if you told him to pull out odds were 50/50 he'd declare war on you and bankrupt himself throwing endless stacks of archers at you.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:40
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Is there a mod that allows you to exclude certain civs from being selected randomly at game start? I want random civs but I'm so fed up with Hiawatha making GBS threads out cities everywhere.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:43
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Everything I've heard says that once he invades you once and is repulsed, he'll get along with you just fine. He doesn't really mind getting his nose bloodied in a war. I take wardecs too personally and I know I should really treat these things more like the board game it is, but when I get attacked, especially a sneak attack, I feel like it should be fair for me to strike back at the opponent's territory, even just to cripple their war-making capacity. But if I do that, suddenly I become the villain. I really liked the vassalage options in Civ IV for that reason.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:52
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StashAugustine posted:Also, you could move into enemy territory and all you could do about it was threaten to go to war, so your rear end in a top hat neighbor that build nothing but settlers and archers could move right through you territory and drop a city in that one mountain range you didn't put anything into and if you told him to pull out odds were 50/50 he'd declare war on you and bankrupt himself throwing endless stacks of archers at you. Oh god, now I remember setting up a picket line of units to stop the AI's settler from getting through to the single tile of coastline I hadn't covered yet. Goddamn that was a pain in the rear end.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:53
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Oliax posted:I decided to try to go against my natural urge which turns every game into a domination fest and am going for a peaceful victory this time. I started up Emperor, huge Pangea, as Babylon and am consciously making nice nice with all my neighbors. So it turns out I don't really have any neighbors except Harry Bluetooth (everyone else is literally 30+ tiles away - although Shaka is next closest). Don't worry about it. Many of the warmongering AIs simply consider sending a friendly army to their neighbor much like sending a fruitbasket. Hell, I think Harald actually gets a positive friendship modifier for "we fought in the past but they hold no grudges". As long as you don't actually take a city, Harald will still likely become best of friends with you sooner or later, especially if you end up with the same Ideology. Basically, when it comes to diplomacy with Bluetooth, just imagine that the guy literally thinks he's gone to Valhalla and that he and his citizens think war is fun. As long as no cities are actually taken it's all just fun and games for him. Shaka on the other hand, well you know all about him.
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Oct 13, 2014 19:07
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LogisticEarth posted:Is there a mod that allows you to exclude certain civs from being selected randomly at game start? I want random civs but I'm so fed up with Hiawatha making GBS threads out cities everywhere.
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Oct 13, 2014 19:10
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Man, this game I *wanted* to play nice (even with Alex right on my border) but that rear end in a top hat parked his capital in just such a way that he was blocking my only exit out into the ocean. And then he'd parked *that* in such a way that it would have literally meant marching trebuchets right up to Athens to hit anything. Well, ironic punishment, dickhead. Eat my never ending swarm of rickety-rear end ancient ships.
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Oct 13, 2014 19:47
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If you're playing on higher difficulties and you have a City-State neighbor, you should skip building a Worker and instead just DoW and snatch the starting Worker from the City-State. You can do this and then declare peace on the very same turn, making it essentially risk-free. It's also significantly easier to pull off than demanding a Worker as tribute. Also, while it will cause a minor warmonger penalty, it is nowhere near as drastic as if you were to actually capture the CS and can easily be recovered from. Be careful if, say, Alexander has already pledged to protect the CS.
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Oct 13, 2014 20:04
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It seems like every time a city-state finally gets a worker out they are already protected by somebody that I don't want to go to war against.
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Oct 13, 2014 20:22
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Gaggins posted:It seems like every time a city-state finally gets a worker out they are already protected by somebody that I don't want to go to war against. You should always want to go to war with everyone 
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Oct 13, 2014 20:38
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Who has that kind of time?!
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Oct 13, 2014 22:58
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Vicevirtuoso posted:If you're playing on higher difficulties and you have a City-State neighbor, you should skip building a Worker and instead just DoW and snatch the starting Worker from the City-State. You can do this and then declare peace on the very same turn, making it essentially risk-free. You can do this and grind some xp against the city as well. If your units are at the max from barbs you can get xp above 30 at little risk. Early city states will have small capitals that don't put out much damage. It is even better if you can catch their archer out so there is only one damage source. Cheesy but effective.
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Oct 13, 2014 23:06
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To be extra-cheesy, play Shaka for cheap promotions, take the policies in Honour that give you extra XP, and play on Marathon to give you the maximum number of turns to be cheesy in. Conquer the entire planet with double-shooting archers with +1 range.
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Oct 13, 2014 23:24
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Gaggins posted:It seems like every time a city-state finally gets a worker out they are already protected by somebody that I don't want to go to war against. Just because a civ is "protecting" a city-state doesn't mean they'll do anything about it or even really care in the long run. Like, how many times have you ignored all of the assholes coming over to tell you that they "accidentally" rolled your city-state for cash? Plus, the actual declaration of war on their protectorate is the only diplomacy malus I can think of. Continuing to be at war with one of a civ's pets forever shouldn't continue to accrue bad blood, which is good if you want someone to train your military up. Just never take the city-state and you'll be fine.
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Oct 14, 2014 00:03
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