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Sounds like a good idea to me. We already do the same thing for passports so it only makes sense to implement similiar mechanisms for the personal ID card, because that one gets increasingly accepted as a travel document.
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Oct 19, 2014 14:45
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I've got to be honest here, I was under the impression that we have some form of law or laws that would allow us to punish citizens that go abroad and, I don't know, do terroristy things. So while I get the point that people would want to pride themselves on being proactive rather than reactive, why are they opening the can of  with the identification of those people to begin with?On a scale of 1 to Sherrif Joe Arpaio, the Verfassungsschutz seems to have been able to maintain a fairly non-profiley track record when it comes to extremist muslim groups so far, whatever happened to the whole concept of anklaging a person that is under the suspicion of plotting to commit a crime, regardless of the crime being in- or out of country?
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Oct 19, 2014 16:17
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On the other hand, isn't it a bit lovely to do nothing when people join extremist Muslim groups here in Germany and then go off to the Middle East to blow up poo poo? It's a bit heartless to say "Ooh we are so sorry that one of our citizens killed twenty schoolgirls in your country because he thinks women don't deserve education, but don't worry! We will arrest him if he ever comes back!". We wouldn't like it if radical Poles wanted to commit terrorism here in Germany as revenge for WW2, and the Polish government did nothing to stop them coming here. The fact that neither Iraq nor Syria control their borders makes it very much our problem if we just let them leave the country.
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Oct 19, 2014 16:34
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Even accepting these premises - wouldn't it be a lot simpler for literally anyone involved to leave them their cards and instead flag the ID chip? And as a bonus, it'd look like the 3rd Reich a bit less.
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Oct 19, 2014 16:45
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Cingulate posted:Even accepting these premises - wouldn't it be a lot simpler for literally anyone involved to leave them their cards and instead flag the ID chip? No, because it cannot reasonably be expected that other countries will check the electronic ID chip. That's why they go for the "Only valid within the Federal Republic of Germany" notice on the replacement card, which you consider to look 3rd Reich-ish.
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Oct 19, 2014 16:49
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A measure aimed to prevent people from leaving the country will not work once people have left the country. ... Yes.
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Oct 19, 2014 16:50
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Cingulate posted:A measure aimed to prevent people from leaving the country will not work once people have left the country. You seem to be under impression that all European borders are exclusively controlled by Germans authorities. Maybe you should focus your outrage on a more wortwhile cause like the politicians testing the waters for revoking citizenships of militants.
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Oct 19, 2014 16:54
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So we don't have some EU-wide coordination about border control?
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Oct 19, 2014 16:55
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Cingulate posted:So we don't have some EU-wide coordination about border control? I have been unable to find any EU related regulation or directive that requires other states to check the electronically stored information on ID cards during ID checks. Besides the voluntary fingerprints, the chip does not contain information that is not already written on the card itself, so it usually isn't necessary to check the chip itself.
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Oct 19, 2014 17:10
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So IF I was working on any kind of legislation in that regard, I'd probably work on that front.
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Oct 19, 2014 17:20
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An issue with electronics/ID cards is that anyone can read that poo poo (you can buy the personal reader for 50euro or so which apparently does ~stuff~), so if someone got their hands on some cards and could access a lot of other information there would be privacy concerns.
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Oct 19, 2014 20:10
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The more important aspect is that there are other situations beside (non existent) border controls where you have to show your ID, in which the law enforcement personel does not carry RFID reading devices. You can even imagine situations in which the individual is controlled outside the EU, where it is unfeasible to enforce any kind of RFID standard. I'm pretty sure that individuals will be able to appeal the exchange of their ID card before a Verwaltungsgericht.
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Oct 19, 2014 20:55
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Wait, what? How does this even work? Don't you need a passport& ID check to leave the Schengen area through an airport? How do you even get to the caliphate from Germany, if you're on a no-fly list? (asking for a friend)
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Oct 20, 2014 18:57
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waitwhatno posted:Wait, what? How does this even work? You go to Turkey and when you're there you (illegally) cross the border to Syria. Because you don't need a passport to go to Turkey. Randler fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Oct 20, 2014 |
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Oct 20, 2014 19:00
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I had no idea that we don't use a no-fly list in Europe. Maybe it's a good idea to finally get one, probably cheaper in the long run.
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Oct 20, 2014 19:12
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waitwhatno posted:I had no idea that we don't use a no-fly list in Europe. Maybe it's a good idea to finally get one, probably cheaper in the long run. Ah Europe, famous land of liberty and civil rights lol
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Oct 20, 2014 20:08
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icantfindaname posted:Ah Europe, famous land of liberty and civil rights I've had it with your attitude, no more flights for you!
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Oct 20, 2014 21:00
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icantfindaname posted:Ah Europe, famous land of liberty and civil rights Are you seriously implying that it's not...? 
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Oct 20, 2014 21:01
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You're talking about implementing a no fly list, so, uh, yes? Like I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying "we're not beheading infidels so you can't criticize what we do ever", if so you've made Dick Cheny proud. Are you saying "we're still better than the Americans" because if so no, actually now you're just as bad.
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Oct 20, 2014 21:05
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icantfindaname posted:You're talking about implementing a no fly list, so, uh, yes? But there is no no-fly-list?
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Oct 20, 2014 21:16
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icantfindaname posted:You're talking about implementing a no fly list, so, uh, yes? I think there's a looooooooooong distance between beheading infidels and the kind of civil society that Europe has painstakingly built over the past 60 years, but okay, let's ask another way: is there any country/region in the world that's a "land of liberty and civil rights"? Or are you just saying the whole world is simply hosed? (If you were gonna say New Zealand or Canada, my instant counter would be that they get to look a lot cleaner because they piggy back off their respective big brother countries to do all the dirty work.)
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Oct 20, 2014 21:32
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I'm saying that you're fast approaching post 9/11 America levels of disregard for civil liberties
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Oct 20, 2014 21:36
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icantfindaname posted:I'm saying that you're fast approaching post 9/11 America levels of disregard for civil liberties That's not possible we would have to use necromancers to resurrect Hitler to make that happen
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Oct 20, 2014 21:48
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Libluini posted:That's not possible we would have to use necromancers to resurrect Hitler to make that happen Probably happening as we speak somewhere in the bowels of
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Oct 20, 2014 21:51
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Torrannor posted:On the other hand, isn't it a bit lovely to do nothing when people join extremist Muslim groups here in Germany and then go off to the Middle East to blow up poo poo? It's a bit heartless to say "Ooh we are so sorry that one of our citizens killed twenty schoolgirls in your country because he thinks women don't deserve education, but don't worry! We will arrest him if he ever comes back!". We wouldn't like it if radical Poles wanted to commit terrorism here in Germany as revenge for WW2, and the Polish government did nothing to stop them coming here. The fact that neither Iraq nor Syria control their borders makes it very much our problem if we just let them leave the country. I don't really get this. If they're actively being terrorists, or you can prove they're about to commit crimes, lock them up, if not, where do you get off telling them they can't leave the country? I'm probably missing the context but from what I've read the whole plan just sounds like a way to gently caress with brown people (and sympathizers) requiring a lower burden of proof than outright incarceration. I can't come up with a hypothetical situation where stopping people from leaving a country isn't hosed up, as long as they aren't in prison and don't have legal proceedings running against them.
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Oct 20, 2014 22:04
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Vanadium posted:I don't really get this. If they're actively being terrorists, or you can prove they're about to commit crimes, lock them up, if not, where do you get off telling them they can't leave the country? I'm probably missing the context but from what I've read the whole plan just sounds like a way to gently caress with brown people (and sympathizers) requiring a lower burden of proof than outright incarceration. Except for the part where this is merely the extension of a long-established pre-existing practice with passports that was not aimed at loving with brown people.
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Oct 20, 2014 22:08
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icantfindaname posted:I'm saying that you're fast approaching post 9/11 America levels of disregard for civil liberties I think you must have very little idea of how bad poo poo is in the U.S. if you think this is true. As a very basic matter, for instance, having lived in the U.S. for most of my adult life, I have learned as second nature to avoid the police. I would never talk to a police officer (or any law enforcement officer) in the U.S. or volunteer any information to them unless I or someone else was in real danger. I wouldn't ask them for directions or say a friendly hello or anything. It's just something you learn is a dangerous thing to do. You can't with a straight face tell me that this is the same anywhere in the E.U.
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Oct 20, 2014 22:44
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eviljelly posted:I think you must have very little idea of how bad poo poo is in the U.S. if you think this is true. As a very basic matter, for instance, having lived in the U.S. for most of my adult life, I have learned as second nature to avoid the police. I would never talk to a police officer (or any law enforcement officer) in the U.S. or volunteer any information to them unless I or someone else was in real danger. I wouldn't ask them for directions or say a friendly hello or anything. It's just something you learn is a dangerous thing to do. You can't with a straight face tell me that this is the same anywhere in the E.U. Are you black or Arab?
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Oct 20, 2014 22:46
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eviljelly posted:I think you must have very little idea of how bad poo poo is in the U.S. if you think this is true. As a very basic matter, for instance, having lived in the U.S. for most of my adult life, I have learned as second nature to avoid the police. I would never talk to a police officer (or any law enforcement officer) in the U.S. or volunteer any information to them unless I or someone else was in real danger. I wouldn't ask them for directions or say a friendly hello or anything. It's just something you learn is a dangerous thing to do. You can't with a straight face tell me that this is the same anywhere in the E.U. I like EU policemen. I feel safer when they are around. In the US, I quickly learned you best try to avoid them. That's indeed a scary thing. Germany feels much more like a society to me. icantfindaname posted:Are you black or Arab?
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Oct 20, 2014 22:47
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icantfindaname posted:Are you black or Arab? Cingulate posted:This was a thing that totally caught me by surprise when I first visited the US. I totally agree. I really love the U.S. in a lot of ways but I don't feel like they have this whole "civil society" thing figured out. For the record, while I do still have a lingering distrust of cops, I have never ever had a bad dealing with a German cop and for the most part they've been no ruder than the average cashier at the Rewe.
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Oct 20, 2014 22:51
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Cingulate posted:Germany feels much more like a society to me. I would say it probably doesn't feel like much more of a society for the people whose civil liberties you're planning to poo poo all over. The only way your comment makes sense is if you only care about how comfortable you, as a white European, feel. So, in other words, welcome to the USA, pick up your passport at your neighborhood consulate, I guess
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Oct 20, 2014 23:04
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icantfindaname posted:I would say it probably doesn't feel like much more of a society for the people whose civil liberties you're planning to poo poo all over. The only way your comment makes sense is if you only care about how comfortable you, as a white European, feel. So, in other words, welcome to the USA, pick up your passport at your neighborhood consulate, I guess *shrugs* I'm not white and I'm clearly a foreigner anyway because I don't speak German, so I definitely feel like an outsider here in Germany but I feel a lot safer and feel like people don't live in constant fear. In the U.S., I never felt like an outsider but I had to be constantly at alert. Things are different in Europe as a matter of kind, not just of degrees. I'm not saying Europe is a paradise (I really dislike how bad customer service is in Germany, for instance), but you're way off base when you compare it to places that behead infidels or even to the U.S. when it comes to liberty and civil rights.
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Oct 20, 2014 23:19
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icantfindaname posted:I would say it probably doesn't feel like much more of a society for the people whose civil liberties you're planning to poo poo all over. The only way your comment makes sense is if you only care about how comfortable you, as a white European, feel. So, in other words, welcome to the USA, pick up your passport at your neighborhood consulate, I guess I'm not saying Germany or the EU are utopian paradises, that's really not a fair representation of what I said, of course there is so much bad stuff going on on the continent. But just comparing the US to Germany, I feel Germany is somewhat more of a civil society. e:f,b
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Oct 20, 2014 23:21
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Cingulate posted:I know being a white guy I'm on the sunny side of almost all of these situations, but I've heard the same from for example black american friends - that they feel better in Germany. Yeah, for one thing black people in Germany don't have to fear some random schmuck walking before them suddenly drawing a gun and shooting them down because they felt "threatened by this obvious criminal". Fake Edit: As long as they don't have a nasty run-in with Neo-Nazis of course, but at least not every German has a gun and the will to use it, is what I'm getting at.
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Oct 20, 2014 23:34
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Well, after the Bundeswehr being poo poo, German intelligence being busy helping out the NSA, "extremists" losing their passport and the CSU even demanding that they lose their citizenship, what is left to say but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXs6-cgOP88 
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Oct 21, 2014 16:36
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System Metternich posted:Well, after the Bundeswehr being poo poo, German intelligence being busy helping out the NSA, "extremists" losing their passport and the CSU even demanding that they lose their citizenship, what is left to say but... 
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Oct 21, 2014 17:05
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System Metternich posted:Well, after the Bundeswehr being poo poo, German intelligence being busy helping out the NSA, "extremists" losing their passport and the CSU even demanding that they lose their citizenship, what is left to say but... And still, hundreds of American soldiers have deserted and gone into hiding in Germany. Fancy that.
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Oct 21, 2014 17:14
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System Metternich posted:Well, after the Bundeswehr being poo poo, German intelligence being busy helping out the NSA, "extremists" losing their passport and the CSU even demanding that they lose their citizenship, what is left to say but... It's a good thing that the CDU is a moderating influence on the CSU. I don't think they will allow the CSU to take away anybody's citizenship.
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Oct 21, 2014 18:50
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I started looking up which countries would get to keep their governments if only Bundesregierungen were deposed, but it turns out I'm too lazy. The guy is certainly not making a very well thought through demand, though.
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Oct 21, 2014 19:01
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Smirr posted:I started looking up which countries would get to keep their governments if only Bundesregierungen were deposed, but it turns out I'm too lazy. The guy is certainly not making a very well thought through demand, though. Pretty sure only Germany and Austria would lose theirs (Switzerland isn't in Europe).
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Oct 21, 2014 19:15
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