p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Shaggar posted:

programing languages aren't math. they're for people.

tbc alt spotted

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:10

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 01:23

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

Shaggar posted:

ive never actually found this to be true and irl most of those container specific features are actually just other JEE components that you could include as a application dependency instead of a server dependency.

aren't there massive extensions to jsp syntax that are container-specific? it has been a long time since i did any of this, maybe they've all been standardized

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:16

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

tef posted:

petulant elitism peddled by the smug

new thread title found

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:16

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

rjmccall posted:

aren't there massive extensions to jsp syntax that are container-specific? it has been a long time since i did any of this, maybe they've all been standardized

jsp was designed to be extended and lots of extensions were built for it. what you're probably seeing are extension sets that come with the default libraries in a container. there is nothing that prevents you from including those same libraries in your war and deploying to to another container.

also you're right that a lot of extensions get absorbed into JEE via the JCR over time.

but for real don't use jsp

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:20

hepatizon: Oct 27, 2010

tef posted:

this whole "people who use X language aren't as capable of code thought because X doesn't have <feature>" is petulant elitism peddled by the smug.

it's not elitist to say that people are largely limited by their tools. the ratio of tool creators to tool users is always gonna be low

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:29

GameCube: Nov 21, 2006

hey i didn't think to ask the PL thread: what's some good sites/books/whatever to recommend to, say, a high school student who thinks they might be interested in programming

so far i've got a couple python and arduino tutorials because those seem like the most fun and easy things to gently caress around with, along with some sorting algorithm visualizers just to introduce the concept to em

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:35

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

tell him to go play sports and hang out w/ girls instead of being a nerd.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:36

triple sulk: Sep 17, 2014

Shaggar posted:

tell him to go play sports and hang out w/ girls instead of being a nerd.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:38

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

quote:

the ratio of tool creators to tool users is always gonna be low

programmers are people who write tools, literally/figuratively creating an entity to deal with a specific problem. we create so many that we throw them away almost instantly after using them.

hepatizon posted:

it's not elitist to say that people are largely limited by their tools.

we are talking about Sapir-Whorf applying to programmers, and programming languages, that their language shapes their mental model of the world, in such a way to constrain or limit their model. in the strong version at least, which you hint at by "limited"

and you say, po faced, that these tools are limited, despite the ability for pretty much all of them to simulate each other.

you say it's limiting despite compilers being bootstrapped. despite interpreters. despite meta programming. despite all of the changes we see in mainstream languages as compared to decades ago.

if this were true we'd never have gotten this far out of the tarpit.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:39

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

if you use p-langs you have a distorted view of what good tools look like.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:40

qntm: Jun 17, 2009

why would a high school student have the slightest interest in a book

tell them to hit F12 in a web browser and go nuts

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:40

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Werthog 95 posted:

hey i didn't think to ask the PL thread: what's some good sites/books/whatever to recommend to, say, a high school student who thinks they might be interested in programming

i hate to atwood and link to something i've written but i hate repeating myself, so here i the long version http://programmingisterrible.com/post/40453884799/what-language-should-i-learn-first

Werthog 95 posted:

so far i've got a couple python and arduino tutorials because those seem like the most fun and easy things to gently caress around with, along with some sorting algorithm visualizers just to introduce the concept to em

the short version is: things they want the computer to do, and maybe you can help them narrow it down a bit. i found people liked being able to script or control a tool or game they enjoyed (minecraft mods are a gateway to programming), but really they're only going to learn something if they have some goal to achieve from it
y

your job is to break down their goal into smaller steps, find out what they want to do, get them something they can do in an aftrnoon or so, and then see where they go off too

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:49

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

way to recommend a bunch of p-langs so they start off down the wrong path.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:51

GameCube: Nov 21, 2006

shaggar, you are my bus-friend, but not my programming-friend.

tef posted:

i hate to atwood and link to something i've written but i hate repeating myself, so here i the long version http://programmingisterrible.com/post/40453884799/what-language-should-i-learn-first

the short version is: things they want the computer to do, and maybe you can help them narrow it down a bit. i found people liked being able to script or control a tool or game they enjoyed (minecraft mods are a gateway to programming), but really they're only going to learn something if they have some goal to achieve from it
y

your job is to break down their goal into smaller steps, find out what they want to do, get them something they can do in an aftrnoon or so, and then see where they go off too

well at this point i'm just adding to a list of general intro stuff to look at. i went in and gave a little presentation on what my college degree was about but didn't have any time to actually work with 'em on anything, but i gave them my email address and some links to tutorials. if any of them follow up with me i'll definitely try to find something more personal

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:56

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

give them unity and some youtube tutroial links

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:56

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

tef posted:

thanks paul graham.

really, no thanks for bringing in the linguistics tabs vs spaces, nature vs nurture alike thing. blub paradox, or the "may language makes me smarter" school of argument.

i mean, you could have at least argued that either strong or weak holds, but the thing is it denies that languages are fluid, and many not c language features are implemented in c, or that compilers exist. the set of features used in a language is not limited to the features the language starts with.

the whole growing a language schitck. i mean it's real great that some languages have endofunctors, inline method caches, ad-hoc polymorphic substructural typing, asynchronous message passing with linear types. some languages just have boilerplate instead of language supported features.

but woah what's that it's a turing machine gently caress me

there is an argument to be made that a language promotes some features over others, but then we can look at java where there is a lot of best practices that go against the grain of the language, i.e punished syntactically. (for ex: final and syncrhonized). cultural norms often dictate the use of features and styles, often overwhelmingly so. python has pep-8 and go has gofmt.

this whole "people who use X language aren't as capable of code thought because X doesn't have <feature>" is petulant elitism peddled by the smug.

sry the idea that the language u code in affects how u approach problems is totally real

not to the extent of the actual Sapir whorf but frankly someone programming in haskell will choose a different approach than a c programmer

not a bad thing but if a language and runtime make something difficult to express then people will avoid it

the smugness poo poo is totes pg I mean I'm a loving ivory tower haskell but I get things done in c#

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:57

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Shaggar posted:

way to recommend a bunch of p-langs so they start off down the wrong path.

i actually recommend scratch a lot to get something done in an afternoon

the tools you recommend need a lot of up front investment, which makes them bad introductions to programming, and cause "public static void main" disease.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:59

GameCube: Nov 21, 2006

hmm. yeah i definitely need something a little more "fun" than the logo turtles and text adventures in these python tutorials. maybe something with L�VE. do i want to expose children to lua though

# ? Oct 24, 2014 19:59

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

tef posted:

i actually recommend scratch a lot to get something done in an afternoon

the tools you recommend need a lot of up front investment, which makes them bad introductions to programming, and cause "public static void main" disease.

use groovy in eclipse and then graduate them into proper java.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:01

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

actually I would start with karel the robot/turtle graphics .

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:02

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/

this is an awesome book. it lets you develop a really good conceptual approach while still being able to make cute little programs that display animations and so on from very early on. the response to it is pretty much that once they started teaching it to undergrads, the companies they interned for were like "wtf why are your undergrads better than your grad students"

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:03

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

i like tef having a job because he rants more

tef posted:

programmers are people who write tools, literally/figuratively creating an entity to deal with a specific problem. we create so many that we throw them away almost instantly after using them.

we are talking about Sapir-Whorf applying to programmers, and programming languages, that their language shapes their mental model of the world, in such a way to constrain or limit their model. in the strong version at least, which you hint at by "limited"

and you say, po faced, that these tools are limited, despite the ability for pretty much all of them to simulate each other.

you say it's limiting despite compilers being bootstrapped. despite interpreters. despite meta programming. despite all of the changes we see in mainstream languages as compared to decades ago.

if this were true we'd never have gotten this far out of the tarpit.

is there anything in sapir whorf hypothesis that talks to how i a structure a solution rather than whether i can build the solution? both how i go about solving a problem in the languages and what languages i choose (lol) in the first place.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:06

GameCube: Nov 21, 2006

fleshweasel posted:

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/

this is an awesome book. it lets you develop a really good conceptual approach while still being able to make cute little programs that display animations and so on from very early on. the response to it is pretty much that once they started teaching it to undergrads, the companies they interned for were like "wtf why are your undergrads better than your grad students"

i'll take a look at this, thx

i considered adding SICP to the list. lmao

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:11

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Malcolm XML posted:

sry the idea that the language u code in affects how u approach problems is totally real

not to the extent of the actual Sapir whorf but frankly someone programming in haskell will choose a different approach than a c programmer

i argue that the community and libraries make this more of a difference, usually more so than the language itself encourages, and what the language encourages doesn't always end up as common or idiomatic practice.

quote:

not a bad thing but if a language and runtime make something difficult to express then people will avoid it

somewhat, although people will avoid anything that involves work, including things that are difficult to understand, difficult to deploy, difficult to maintain.

although a lot of people do write code that is optimised towards writing it

quote:

the smugness poo poo is totes pg I mean I'm a loving ivory tower haskell but I get things done in c#

well they're both microsoft languages, and they have a lot of overlap. i mean, java would never get linq, or rx

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:12

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Haskell is a research language maintained by Microsoft for mining ideas for real languages like c#.

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:19

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

tef posted:

the biggest success was getting it taught in lots of universities, which in my case replaced the c course. it was felt that it made a better teaching language, being documented, no cost, cross platform, with graphical libraries. this created a pool of people who could write it, which in turn powered its adoption by enterprise.

people were hugely excited about server-side java before it ended up in schools.

sun pushed it hard, ibm pushed it hard, every unix vendor tried to ship a jdk. java was just obviously the Next Big Thing in the 1990s, long before it actually worked well. java 1.0 and 1.1 were basically alpha tests, they were hilariously bad/slow in every way you can imagine

as an example: apple migrated its main (only) enterprise product to java in 1997. (it comes to mind easily because it came up in another thread)

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:22

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

when java came along it had been many years since anyone had tried to ship a complete language with a huge standard library. and nobody had even tried to do it multi-platform.

hype levels were off the charts

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:23

suffix: Jul 27, 2013; Wheeee!

tef posted:

i argue that the community and libraries make this more of a difference, usually more so than the language itself encourages, and what the language encourages doesn't always end up as common or idiomatic practice.

somewhat, although people will avoid anything that involves work, including things that are difficult to understand, difficult to deploy, difficult to maintain.

although a lot of people do write code that is optimised towards writing it

ime if there are two ways to do a simple thing, programmers tend to do it either the way that's convenient to write, or the way that's most performant, by whatever little margin

community best practices are more the exceptions that proves the rule,
they acknowledge that the language guides you to certain ways to do things and note some special cases where they're bad

like how 5 == x is objectively the better way to do comparisons in C from a purely technical pov, but there's a reason they call it yoda style

the large things you can abstract out and paper over however you want, even java can be pleasant with good libraries, but it's the little things that get you

# ? Oct 24, 2014 20:58

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

tef posted:

i argue that the community and libraries make this more of a difference, usually more so than the language itself encourages, and what the language encourages doesn't always end up as common or idiomatic practice.

somewhat, although people will avoid anything that involves work, including things that are difficult to understand, difficult to deploy, difficult to maintain.

although a lot of people do write code that is optimised towards writing it

well they're both microsoft languages, and they have a lot of overlap. i mean, java would never get linq, or rx

java got streams = linq

# ? Oct 24, 2014 21:56

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

suffix posted:

like how 5 == x is objectively the better way to do comparisons in C from a purely technical pov, but there's a reason they call it yoda style

uh isn't this the compiler's job

# ? Oct 25, 2014 00:47

ryde: Sep 9, 2011; God I love young girls

fleshweasel posted:

uh isn't this the compiler's job

no, the point of doing it that way is to avoid typos where you accidentally assign rather than compare. in c, an assignment would return a value which could be evaluated as a bool (5 would be true for example). this way the compiler would complain.

# ? Oct 25, 2014 01:25

Dicky B: Mar 23, 2004

compilers already complain about that. Turn on warnings as errors

# ? Oct 25, 2014 01:28

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Dicky B posted:

compilers already complain about that. Turn on warnings as errors

What compiler would complain about the statement "x = 5;"?

Blotto Skorzany posted:

new thread title found

is python still, really, the new hipste

# ? Oct 25, 2014 01:48

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

fleshweasel posted:

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/

this is an awesome book. it lets you develop a really good conceptual approach while still being able to make cute little programs that display animations and so on from very early on. the response to it is pretty much that once they started teaching it to undergrads, the companies they interned for were like "wtf why are your undergrads better than your grad students"

wow this book is great so far

quote:

Later, we shall show you really strange facts about �computer numbers,� and you will then truly appreciate that DrRacket issues such warnings.

thanks for this, my new go-to answer to "what book should i read to really learn how to program"

# ? Oct 25, 2014 01:49

raminasi: Jan 25, 2005; a last drink with no ice

PleasingFungus posted:

What compiler would complain about the statement "x = 5;"?

if you put it in an if statement a bunch will

# ? Oct 25, 2014 02:40

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

PleasingFungus posted:

What compiler would complain about the statement "x = 5;"?

what program would contain the statement "x == 5;"?

# ? Oct 25, 2014 09:28

Wheany: Mar 17, 2006; Spinya^{ha^{ha^haha}ha}ha_{ha_{ha_haha}ha}ha!; Doctor Rope

Werthog 95 posted:

shaggar, you are my bus-friend, but not my programming-friend.

well at this point i'm just adding to a list of general intro stuff to look at. i went in and gave a little presentation on what my college degree was about but didn't have any time to actually work with 'em on anything, but i gave them my email address and some links to tutorials. if any of them follow up with me i'll definitely try to find something more personal

take a look at http://www.greenfoot.org/door

it's java without "public static void main public static void main public static void main public static void main"

# ? Oct 25, 2014 10:31

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

when java came along it had been many years since anyone had tried to ship a complete language with a huge standard library. and nobody had even tried to do it multi-platform.

hype levels were off the charts

for all its warts, java is a really comprehensive language with massive amounts of documentation and tooling, and that's just when it was launched.

Shaggar posted:

use groovy in eclipse and then graduate them into proper java.

tbh if the person wants to get minecraft modding, this might be an easier way to do it. although groovy is a bit rubbyesque for my taste and ends up in dsl hell

# ? Oct 25, 2014 11:07

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

a big part is really that sun had excellent engineers and very little business sense. really solid investment into something that predictably got them pretty much nothing

# ? Oct 25, 2014 11:12

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 01:23

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

Itt Shaggar is right

# ? Oct 25, 2014 16:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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