California Politics: Madame Senator, this is a morgue

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silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

It's by virtue of successfully completing literally the most rigorous education in the country over a minimum of 7 years, in order to perform a job that is, again, literally saving lives for 80+ hour workweeks that frequently involve 36 hour shifts.

But yeah, they probably have it too good.

I have no doubt that they have to work hard in medical school, but being a doctor isn't the hardest job intellectually. I wouldn't say that it is the most rigorous education. The working long hours stuff is a situation that they themselves have created, so I don't feel sympathy for them when they complain about that. Most people who have high paying jobs have to work a lot too.

Don't get me wrong, I think that doctors provide an incredibly valuable service for society. However, in return they are rewarded handsomely and have incredible job security. They also have a lot of political clout and their interests are taken care of by the US government. They are doing fine.

silence_kit fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 31, 2014

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:38

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# ? May 12, 2024 10:37

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

silence_kit posted:

I have no doubt that they have to work hard in medical school, but being a doctor isn't the hardest job intellectually. I wouldn't say that it is the most rigorous education.

Hahahahaha

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:39

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Family Values posted:

None of this actually matters. it's a red herring. Working as a doctor could be like going to the spa or it could be like working in a mine, the working conditions of medical professionals don't excuse them from not loving maiming/killing patients because they're drunk or high. Pilots work long hours too but I still expect the pilot for my 14 hour flight to Hong Kong to be sober.

If you want to see their working conditions improved, campaign for that instead of dragging it into this debate and acting like you think that excuses them from acting responsibly; it doesn't and long hours are not a reason to vote against Prop 46.

Factors potentially leading to medical mistakes are a red herring? Why do you think theres stimulant abuse?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:39

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

Hahahahaha

Being a doctor isn't the hardest job intellectually. I don't see what's so controversial about that. It is much more difficult intellectually to be a mathematician, for example. However, doctors are more useful to society than mathematicians doing math research at universities, which is a lot of the reason why doctors get paid more.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:47

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Family Values posted:

None of this actually matters. it's a red herring. Working as a doctor could be like going to the spa or it could be like working in a mine, the working conditions of medical professionals don't excuse them from not loving maiming/killing patients because they're drunk or high. Pilots work long hours too but I still expect the pilot for my 14 hour flight to Hong Kong to be sober.

If you want to see their working conditions improved, campaign for that instead of dragging it into this debate and acting like you think that excuses them from acting responsibly; it doesn't and long hours are not a reason to vote against Prop 46.

Pilots are legally prohibited from working long hours. On your 14 hour flight example the same crew cannot fly the entire flight. It turns out when you fly while sleep deprived people die.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:47

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

silence_kit posted:

Being a doctor isn't the hardest job intellectually. I don't see what's so controversial about that. It is much more difficult intellectually to be a mathematician, for example. However, doctors are more useful to society than mathematicians doing math research at universities, which is a lot of the reason why doctors get paid more.

Uh, since you're talking about the entire field I've seen plenty of MDs do "math research" in the area of statistics. It's all been completely wrong though. :v:

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:48

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

silence_kit posted:

Being a doctor isn't the hardest job intellectually. I don't see what's so controversial about that. It is much more difficult intellectually to be a mathematician, for example. However, doctors are more useful to society than mathematicians doing math research at universities, which is a lot of the reason why doctors get paid more.

Are you for real?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:51

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

hobbesmaster posted:

Uh, since you're talking about the entire field I've seen plenty of MDs do "math research" in the area of statistics. It's all been completely wrong though.

They actually have a field dedicated to that which plenty of physicians get a masters in during med school: public health. It's all about outcome stats and whatnot; popular with MD researchers.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:55

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

Are you for real?

Yeah. I don't think that what I am saying is controversial at all. More people probably have the intellectual ability to be doctors than to be mathematicians at universities doing math research. Note that I am not saying that math research is more important to society than medicine. Most people, including me, think that the opposite is obviously true.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 18:55

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

silence_kit posted:

Yeah. I don't think that what I am saying is controversial at all. More people probably have the intellectual ability to be doctors than to be mathematicians at universities doing math research. Note that I am not saying that math research is more important to society than medicine. Most people, including me, think that the opposite is obviously true.

So what fight with the medschool did your department lose?

Oh fun fact: university professors of medicine need to teach, conduct research and work clinical hours.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:01

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

hobbesmaster posted:

Factors potentially leading to medical mistakes are a red herring? Why do you think theres stimulant abuse?

Why do you think stimulant abuse while on the job is OK? Like is that the real argument here, doctors can't be expected to do their job without drugs?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:06

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

silence_kit posted:

Yeah. I don't think that what I am saying is controversial at all. More people probably have the intellectual ability to be doctors than to be mathematicians at universities doing math research. Note that I am not saying that math research is more important to society than medicine. Most people, including me, think that the opposite is obviously true.

That's funny because I'm pretty sure that most people who would argue that point with you would also be aware of the significantly lower educational hurdles one must clear in order to acquire a PhD of Math, or any other liberal arts PhD, than they are to, say, treat someone for cancer.

Heck, if you screw up really badly and your university pulls your scholarships/grants/fellowships, you can always pay cash out of pocket to complete your PhD studies.

But of course I am very interested in hearing what other professions you feel require more of this "intellectual ability" than physicians.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:09

mike-: Jul 9, 2004; Phillipians 1:21

Arguing about whether medicine or math is more intellectually difficult is like arguing about whose dad has the biggest dick.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:17

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

mike- posted:

Arguing about whether medicine or math is more intellectually difficult is like arguing about whose dad has the biggest dick.

Which profession is the most noble? How do we best measure it?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:26

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

That's funny because I'm pretty sure that most people who would argue that point with you would also be aware of the significantly lower educational hurdles one must clear in order to acquire a PhD of Math, or any other liberal arts PhD, than they are to, say, treat someone for cancer.

Look, undoubtedly doctors have to work hard and learn a lot do be able to do their jobs well. I just don't think that being a medical doctor is the most intellectually demanding job out of all possible professions. How much job training you need in order to do your job is not what I am talking about. Especially, since if you are doing research, you work on problems where there is no one to train you exactly what technique or tell you the answer to how to solve a particular problem.

Again, I am not claiming that being a mathematician is more important to society than being a doctor.

hobbesmaster posted:

Uh, since you're talking about the entire field I've seen plenty of MDs do "math research" in the area of statistics. It's all been completely wrong though.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, but I don't think that you want to equivocate the mathematical abilities of medical researchers and mathematicians. There's a paper with quite a few citations where a medical researcher claims that he invented the trapezoidal method for numerical integration. Are you referencing that?

As a disclaimer to protect the fragile egos of medical doctors, I am not claiming that mathematical literacy at the level of freshman calculus is more important to society than knowing how to diagnose cancer in a patient. Obviously, understanding how to diagnose and treat cancer is extremely important to society.

Edit:

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

I think that maybe you might not be familiar with medical researchers, who also tend to be physicians.

Unless you feel that researching the cure for cancer is a less rigorous field of study? Or AIDS?

Ok, since now you have moved the goalposts, I think that this discussion is over.

silence_kit fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Oct 31, 2014

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:27

TACD: Oct 27, 2000

mike- posted:

Arguing about whether medicine or math is more intellectually difficult is like arguing about whose dad has the biggest dick.

Like saying that Pee-pee ≠ NP?

:v:

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:32

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

silence_kit posted:

Look, undoubtedly doctors have to work hard and learn a lot do be able to do their jobs well. I just don't think that being a medical doctor is the most intellectually demanding job out of all possible professions. How much job training you need in order to do your job is not what I am talking about. Especially, since if you are doing research, you work on problems where there is no one to train you exactly what technique or tell you the answer to how to solve a particular problem.

I think that maybe you might not be familiar with medical researchers, who also tend to be physicians.

Unless you feel that researching the cure for cancer is a less rigorous field of study? Or AIDS?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:37

raminasi: Jan 25, 2005; a last drink with no ice

So, if I'm understanding the last few pages right, a "Yes" vote on Prop 46 means that I want to selfishly punish doctors simply because they make more money than I do, and a "No" vote means that I think doctors should be able to freely kill patients left and right because they're hammered on the job.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:39

Slobjob Zizek: Jun 20, 2004

Lol, you are absurd - go ask any MD/PhD which degree they thought was harder.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:40

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

GrumpyDoctor posted:

So, if I'm understanding the last few pages right, a "Yes" vote on Prop 46 means that I want to selfishly punish doctors simply because they make more money than I do, and a "No" vote means that I think doctors should be able to freely kill patients left and right because they're hammered on the job.

Sounds about right; good work everyone

*pats you all on the butts*

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:44

Slobjob Zizek: Jun 20, 2004

Also, professions rise and fall. It was more noble to be part of the clergy or the military than of medicine 150 years ago. Now it's the opposite. So it goes.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:55

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Slobjob Zizek posted:

Also, professions rise and fall. It was more noble to be part of the clergy or the military than of medicine 150 years ago. Now it's the opposite. So it goes.

The really crazy one was that lawyerin was considered the #2 most ethical profession up through the 50s.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 19:58

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

GrumpyDoctor posted:

So, if I'm understanding the last few pages right, a "Yes" vote on Prop 46 means that I want to selfishly punish doctors simply because they make more money than I do, and a "No" vote means that I think doctors should be able to freely kill patients left and right because they're hammered on the job.

Yes.

Can we let this stupid loving derail die already, or are three pages of wanking/crying about doctors not enough yet?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 21:01

Bizarro Watt: May 30, 2010; My responsibility is to follow the Scriptures which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns.

Out of curiosity, could an LA-area residents give their thoughts on Garcetti's term as mayor so far?

# ? Oct 31, 2014 22:29

Proust Malone: Apr 4, 2008

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

The really crazy one was that lawyerin was considered the #2 most ethical profession up through the 50s.

I can't imagine what could have changed to make people think differently.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 22:43

Family Values: Jun 26, 2007

Field Poll's final poll (PDF) before Tuesday:

code:

                                                                     Voting  Voting 
                                                                     Yes     No       Undecided
Prop. 1 (Water Bonds)
Late October                                                         54%     22       24
Late August/early September                                          52%     27       21

Prop. 45 (Health Insurance Rate Changes)
Late October                                                         30%     42       28
Late August/early September                                          41%     26       33
Late June/early July                                                 69%     16       15

Prop. 46 (Drug Testing of Doctors/Medical Negligence Lawsuits)
Late October                                                         32%     49       19
Late August/early September                                          34%     37       29
Late June/early July                                                 58%     30       12

Prop. 47 (Criminal Sentences)
Late October                                                         51%     23       26
Late June/early July                                                 57%     24       19

Support for ~~all~~ most of them has declined since spring/summer.

e: oops I missed that Prop 1 is slightly up

Family Values fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Oct 31, 2014

# ? Oct 31, 2014 22:45

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

by virtue of successfully completing literally the most rigorous education in the country

You are pretty far down the rabbit hole.

silence_kit posted:

Yeah. I don't think that what I am saying is controversial at all.

Its not.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 22:46

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

Family Values posted:

Field Poll's final poll (PDF) before Tuesday:

Support for ~~all~~ most of them has declined since spring/summer.

e: oops I missed that Prop 1 is slightly up

That's quite the reversal on Prop 45. As slimy as these insurance companies are, I can't help but admire their propaganda skills.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 23:32

Tacier: Jul 22, 2003

Leperflesh posted:

Water storage includes underground, e.g. aquifer replenishment. And, many of our dams and reservoirs are a hundred years old and need maintenance or reconstruction. And, it leaves it up to the legislature to direct that funding where needed, so any entirely new project would still have to pass environmental impact studies, etc.

This is true, and no doubt some of the money will go toward much needed maintenance of our aging dams and water infrastructure (our levees are a ticking time bomb), but realistically I don't think we're going to spend $2.7 billion on groundwater recharge and ongoing maintenance. I'll be very surprised if Prop 1 passes and we don't see any new dams built in the next 10 years.

Tacier fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 31, 2014

# ? Oct 31, 2014 23:37

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

Tacier posted:

This is true, and no doubt some of the money will go toward much needed maintenance of our aging dams and water infrastructure (our levees are a ticking time bomb), but realistically I don't think we're going to spend $2.7 billion on groundwater recharge and ongoing maintenance. I'll be very surprised if Prop 1 passes and we don't see any new dams built in the next 10 years.

I'm not going to post the full text of the Prop (you can read it here, rules regarding the $2.7 billion in question on Page 10) but basically there are a ton of environmental protections on the money, so nobody is throwing up a new dam without clearing some serious hurdles. The projects proposed for the money are also ranked via public benefit metrics created by the Department of Water, and ecological impact metrics created by the Department of Fish and Wildlife. I'm not saying it's impossible some of it will go to funding new dams, but it's not like the Prop is giving carte blanche to throw them up at taxpayer expense.

# ? Oct 31, 2014 23:54

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Sydin posted:

That's quite the reversal on Prop 45. As slimy as these insurance companies are, I can't help but admire their propaganda skills.

Yeah the Prop 45 against campaign is funded by the likes of Kaiser and Blue Cross.

They mad because it would add more state oversight for things such as rate hikes or benefit changes.

# ? Nov 1, 2014 00:14

Shear Modulus: Jun 9, 2010

Sydin posted:

That's quite the reversal on Prop 45. As slimy as these insurance companies are, I can't help but admire their propaganda skills.

The messaging of "it gives one politician too much power! :supaburn:

" really is ingenious since as a country we're terrified of elected officials making sweeping decisions but a-okay with unelected monopolists and cartels doing so.

# ? Nov 1, 2014 00:16

Tacier: Jul 22, 2003

Sydin posted:

I'm not going to post the full text of the Prop (you can read it here, rules regarding the $2.7 billion in question on Page 10) but basically there are a ton of environmental protections on the money, so nobody is throwing up a new dam without clearing some serious hurdles. The projects proposed for the money are also ranked via public benefit metrics created by the Department of Water, and ecological impact metrics created by the Department of Fish and Wildlife. I'm not saying it's impossible some of it will go to funding new dams, but it's not like the Prop is giving carte blanche to throw them up at taxpayer expense.

Thanks for the link. It looks like there's more accountability than I thought regarding how that that $2.7 billion is spent. I'm less concerned about the environmental issues and mainly opposed to the principle of new publicly funded dams which disproportionately benefit big ag, but I'm probably leaning towards Yes on Prop 1 now. The stuff I don't like about it is increasingly overshadowed by the stuff I do.

What the hell happened to Prop. 45 since June? Was it scare tactics about the one politician who will single-handedly decide your treatment options while laughing maniacally?

# ? Nov 1, 2014 01:00

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Tacier posted:

Thanks for the link. It looks like there's more accountability than I thought regarding how that that $2.7 billion is spent. I'm less concerned about the environmental issues and mainly opposed to the principle of new publicly funded dams which disproportionately benefit big ag, but I'm probably leaning towards Yes on Prop 1 now. The stuff I don't like about it is increasingly overshadowed by the stuff I do.

What the hell happened to Prop. 45 since June? Was it scare tactics about the one politician who will single-handedly decide your treatment options while laughing maniacally?

The insurance companies spent 56 million in funding attack ads against Prop 45.

It's hilarious dishonest campaign too claiming that the current system already has adequate protection against big rate hikes or voting for 45 will funnel more money to crooked doctors.

etalian fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Nov 1, 2014

# ? Nov 1, 2014 01:19

FilthyImp: Sep 30, 2002; Anime Deviant

Bizarro Watt posted:

Out of curiosity, could an LA-area residents give their thoughts on Garcetti's term as mayor so far?

He's not quite the empty suit that Tony Villar was, at least not yet.

He's been pretty non-controversial, came off very average due to his off the cuff cuss a few months ago. I think his biggest critique so far involved the recent tax bonuses to Hollywood and the Made in L.A. music fair in DTLA being a bit too friendly to moneyed promoters. I think he's also a big fan of the idiotic NFL Stadium in DTLA (let's run the ConCenter to do it!), so that's a strike.

LA is currently going through an infrastructure crisis (100 year old water mains are popping through the westside on a disturbingly regular basis), so he probably gets some bad juju for the work crews that impede traffic while they're being fixed.

As of yet the dude hasn't tried to charterize schools or stamp down the teacher's union, so on the education front he's pretty OK. (John Deasy, who resigned as LA superintendent of schools due to his billion dollar iPad boondoggle/a messed up student information system rollout that rivals ACA for ineptness, was a Villaraigosa appointee).

He's also backed a MinWage hike to 13.25, as well as made noise about adding affordable housing. So basically some nice progressive action that we'll have to wait and see about.

FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Nov 1, 2014

# ? Nov 1, 2014 07:29

cmerepaul: Nov 28, 2005; That's not chapstick!

Sydin posted:

Yes.

Can we let this stupid loving derail die already, or are three pages of wanking/crying about doctors not enough yet?

Let's try for 4.

# ? Nov 3, 2014 20:02

cmerepaul: Nov 28, 2005; That's not chapstick!

Tacier posted:

What the hell happened to Prop. 45 since June? Was it scare tactics about the one politician who will single-handedly decide your treatment options while laughing maniacally?

A common thing people complain about regarding the political process these days is how a person or group with a lot of money and a good propaganda campaign can trick huge amounts of people into voting for candidates who are not actually in their best interest.

The direct democracy ballot initiative process is no different.

# ? Nov 3, 2014 20:06

Zeitgueist: Aug 8, 2003; by Ralp

FilthyImp posted:

He's not quite the empty suit that Tony Villar was, at least not yet.

He's been pretty non-controversial, came off very average due to his off the cuff cuss a few months ago. I think his biggest critique so far involved the recent tax bonuses to Hollywood and the Made in L.A. music fair in DTLA being a bit too friendly to moneyed promoters. I think he's also a big fan of the idiotic NFL Stadium in DTLA (let's run the ConCenter to do it!), so that's a strike.

LA is currently going through an infrastructure crisis (100 year old water mains are popping through the westside on a disturbingly regular basis), so he probably gets some bad juju for the work crews that impede traffic while they're being fixed.

As of yet the dude hasn't tried to charterize schools or stamp down the teacher's union, so on the education front he's pretty OK. (John Deasy, who resigned as LA superintendent of schools due to his billion dollar iPad boondoggle/a messed up student information system rollout that rivals ACA for ineptness, was a Villaraigosa appointee).

He's also backed a MinWage hike to 13.25, as well as made noise about adding affordable housing. So basically some nice progressive action that we'll have to wait and see about.

Yeah he's a somewhat inoffensive Dem so far, might be too early to tell. You have to have some bodies in your closet to be Mayor of LA so I'm just assuming that he's successfully hid the evil for now.

# ? Nov 3, 2014 21:45

Aeka 2.0: Nov 16, 2000; Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.; Dinosaur Gum

It is amazing that it is legal to just outright lie to get people to vote for your prop/measure. I just got a flyer in the mail that says "Vote yes on Measure L" for Riverside.

In reality it opens up the land for a Las Vegas contractor. What the gently caress?

# ? Nov 4, 2014 03:57

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# ? May 12, 2024 10:37

ComradeCosmobot: Dec 4, 2004; USPOL July

Gonna vote the hell out of retaining Goodwin Liu tomorrow because meaningless judge retention elections are a thing in this state. :toot:

EDIT: Huh. I actually found a judge I won't vote for retaining (not like it matters)

ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Nov 4, 2014

# ? Nov 4, 2014 04:00

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > California Politics: Madame Senator, this is a morgue

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