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I'm playing loads of really terrible games on valve servers tonight. Like 5/6/7-0's etc? Am I just unlucky and people are stacking after they get balanced or is there some thing hosed up with the balancer?
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Nov 6, 2014 19:52
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Jippa posted:I'm playing loads of really terrible games on valve servers tonight. Like 5/6/7-0's etc? Am I just unlucky and people are stacking after they get balanced or is there some thing hosed up with the balancer? Once a team reaches Critical Mass of Useless Deadweight Classes, anyone who actually wants to play Team Fortress 2 instead of Mr Mundy's Shooting Gallery finds another server to play on. My personal opinion is that the changes to the anti-stacking mechanics have actually amplified this problem. Being able to switch to spectate eventually forces some of the stacked team onto the losing team, which evens stuff out. It's basically another way to force a mini-vote-scramble - you're basically saying that you don't like the current teams so much that you'd rather not be playing in hopes of a small balance adjustment. Instead, now good players will just quit and find another server that's hopefully not horribly stacked - which actually amplifies the stacking problem, because you're giving people more reason to leave. Most of the time, the only people who will stay on that kind of team are the ones who will do absolutely nothing to help break the stack. This is kind of a fundamental problem with Valve's laissez-faire attitude towards TF2 gameplay. You could fix it with class limits, which would prevent the "8/12 players are support classes" problem that usually causes this problem in the first place. You could fix it with a matchmaking system, where decent players will be matched with mostly decent players who won't be deadweight. But when you throw in high-powered veterans in the same servers with useless pubbies who just want to build sentries at spawn, it's an uphill battle at best. And really - there's nothing wrong with wanting to play on your friends' team. Going to such lengths to keep people from playing with their friends is fundamentally wrong-headed. We need match-making or class limits, not these dumb "no spectating allowed" workarounds. The only mechanic that would really keep that laissez-faire thing going is a MvM-like system, where you are penalized somehow if you are repeatedly joining and leaving servers in the middle of a round. Incentivize good players to stay and try to turn things around, instead of just finding a server that isn't mega-stacked. The easiest solution at a personal level is to play on community servers like those in the OP, where decent players hang out. However, most of my usual haunts haven't been starting up lately - I'm guessing midterms are to blame, maybe along with halloween. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 20:09
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Jippa posted:I'm playing loads of really terrible games on valve servers tonight. Like 5/6/7-0's etc? Am I just unlucky and people are stacking after they get balanced or is there some thing hosed up with the balancer? Halloween maps, so people drop all the time after getting their gifts maybe? The balancer doesn't work when there's a constant rotation of players joining and dropping.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:11
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Have their been changes to the balancing in systems in the recent updates?
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Nov 6, 2014 20:17
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Jippa posted:Have their been changes to the balancing in systems in the recent updates? Yeah, recently they changed it so that you're not allowed to switch to spectate if it would unbalance the teams. I think it encourages idling and quitting, because if you need to be momentarily AFK and your team is down you cannot switch to spec, you need to tie up a player spot while you're peeing or whatever - or just leave the game entirely and find a new game when you're back. If you switched to spec, they would get another player switched, and you could rejoin your team later. Also, as mentioned above, I think it amplifies the team-stacking problems. The intention was to keep players from switching to spec, forcing another player to autobalance over, and then re-joining the stacked team. However, that mechanic could also be used by the losing team to try and force stackers onto the losing team, and I think that one just encourages people to quit. Sooner or later the stackers will always get a chance to restack, but players who quit and find another server are just gone. And again, I think it's an uphill battle to keep people from playing with their friends. "Stacking" (read: playing with friends) isn't the problem with TF2 balance, it's the lack of class limits and skill-based matchmaking that let the teams get unbalanced in the first place. If both teams had roughly equal numbers of good players playing useful classes in the first place, it wouldn't be a problem. I reaeeallly hope that Valve is serious about matchmaking. TF2 really needs it, particularly as the game ages and the divide between high-skill players and pubbies widens.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:26
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Paul MaudDib posted:And really - there's nothing wrong with wanting to play on your friends' team. Going to such lengths to keep people from playing with their friends is fundamentally wrong-headed. I disagree on this particular point. You have to be willing to be on the opposite team from a friend. Maybe it's fine at first (sometimes, though pure luck, there are enough competent players opposing to put up a reasonable fight), but if things are too one-sided and a scramble occurs, and you insist on undoing the scramble, then you're basically having your TF2 fun at the expense of everyone else on the server. Especially on those occasions where three (or even more?) people come with pre-arranged teamwork, against a server otherwise composed of total strangers, it's just an exercise in futility for their opponents. You can't create comparable teamwork on the fly using "thanks" emotes and one guy's lovely mic. I tend to stick it out through any unpleasant situation on a Valve server, but as soon as I see people re-stacking after a scramble, I'm out. They've claimed the server as their dominion and nobody else is allowed to have fun. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 20:27
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Ditocoaf posted:Sometimes, though pure luck, there are enough competent players opposing to put up a reasonable fight. But, if there aren't, and one side dominates, and a Scramble is necessary (either by vote, or by the automated system), you are totally a jerk in my book if you purposefully undo that scramble. See, you identified the core problem right here - there not being enough competent players to put up a reasonable fight. The problem isn't playing with your friends, it's the fact that you plus your friends are "playing against" (stomping) a bunch of gibus-wearing snipers and spies. I agree with you that in an ideal world people would be willing to play with whomever they're paired with. But tons of games have party-based quickplay systems, playing with your friends is arguably the norm at this point. Once you start trying to fight people's expectations like that, you need a pretty big stick before people start paying attention. By the way, that includes TF2 - MvM has party-based matchmaking, balanced with the stick of getting low-priority matchmaking if you dick over your teammates by leaving during a match or before playing at least one round with them. If you want to keep trying for a mulligan, you get low-priority matchmaking. You can minimize the damage with class limits, but TF2 really, really needs a ranking system to ensure that roughly comparable amounts of newbies and competent players are dumped into each team. Something like CS:GO matchmaking. That solves the core problem, and then people can play with their friends. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 20:33
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Well I have no feedback on how this is happening but it has completely failed. I've never experienced such unbalanced games as I have in the hours I have played tonight on valve servers. The previous balancing worked 100% better than this.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:36
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Haha, I kept editing and re-editing that post to adjust my wording. I need to stop doing that.Paul MaudDib posted:See, you identified the core problem right here - there not being enough competent players to put up a reasonable fight. The problem isn't playing with your friends, it's the fact that you plus your friends are "playing against" (stomping) a bunch of gibus-wearing snipers and spies. Like I said, it's fine to start out with your friend and give it a shot. But if a scramble happens, don't try to undo it. That's a jerk move. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 20:37
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Ditocoaf posted:Haha, I kept editing that post to re-adjust my wording. I need to stop doing that. Man, I knock down obvious friends alone all the time. New players starting out with a buddy must be a thing; you see the most obvious and oblivious Medic/Heavy or Engineer/Pyro (or Engineer/Engineer) bros constantly. Two good and coordinated players certainly can stomp, but I don't think it's the typical or average "two friends who want to play" experience.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:41
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You guys should stop wasting your time on Valve servers and help seed a decent community server where a balanced game can actually be enforced.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:45
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Ditocoaf posted:Like I said, it's fine to start out with your friend and give it a shot. But if a scramble happens, don't try to undo it. That's a jerk move. Sure, but Valve's fix for this also makes it so that you can't force a player from the stacked team to be auto-balanced to your losing team. Which just makes players on the losing team quit instead. Another problem: this encourages the stackers to just idle or grief the losing team instead of actually playing. You can't force players to play the game. So congrats, now the losing team has gained a player who sits in spawn staring at the scoreboard waiting for the opportunity to switch, or playing a peace heavy or an engineer whose teleporter leads off a cliff instead. And we all know how reliable a kick vote is... I mean, I agree with you that it's a fine moral principle that you should support your team if you get auto-balanced to the losing side. But I'm not sure if you're aware of this: people on the internet are dickheads. People want to play with their friends. People don't want to stare at a respawn screen until the stacked team finishes their roll. If your plan doesn't account for real-world human behavior, it's not gonna work. Solve the core problem and ensure that the veteran demo/heavy/medic trio are faced off against players who have equivalent experience. Matchmaking's not perfect, but as you put it, coming together and working with new players is part of the TF2 experience. A 30-minute game is plenty of time to get acquainted with a fellow vet, it just needs to be possible to actually compete using the team you're given. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 20:46
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BillehS posted:You guys should stop wasting your time on Valve servers and help seed a decent community server where a balanced game can actually be enforced. Right, and sometimes that server is full so while you're waiting for a spot to open (because using your donator privilege to kick someone feels wrong) you slum it on a valve server because those always are available.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:02
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None of my usual community servers have started since the halloween event began. I figure midterms are probably a factor too, it's probably about that time. CritSandvich, Lion's Den, -FAP-, and a bunch of miscellaneous servers - all dead for the last week. Rutas has been dead since forever. TN is the only one that's up, they're 100% packed and they auto-kick pubbies for donators. And frankly, having looked at the list of community servers that ARE populated - I'll take a Valve server over Skial or Lotusclan any day of the week, regardless of what some guy on the internet says about how great community servers are. I'd rather have pubstar combos than that bullshit. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 21:04
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It feels like good community servers are always either completely full or completely empty.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:10
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If players on the losing team quit then that also forces people on the stacked team to autobalance, I don't see how it's any different. In any case I don't think anybody ever did the spectator exploit to help their team, they did it to stack onto the other side and make it more unbalanced. I think ideally the only way to change to the other team after a game has started would be autobalance, that way you prevent the stacking from occurring at all. Doesn't matter if you go to spectate or leave and come back, it wouldn't let you on the other team.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:13
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BillehS posted:You guys should stop wasting your time on Valve servers and help seed a decent community server where a balanced game can actually be enforced. Years ago I would have agreed with you but not now.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:19
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Paul MaudDib posted:None of my usual community servers have started since the halloween event began. I figure midterms are probably a factor too, it's probably about that time. Well yeah, I meant the good ones; not the large server farms. Still I find you can usually fill an empty server quickly if you just join one and invite some of your friends.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:24
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The problem with pub servers is that they're usually most balanced with 16-24 people. Unless you have reason to believe that the server is going to fill up soon after you join, there's not much incentive to jump on a server with under 10 players. I'm not sure why Skial gets so much flak though. Their Badwater servers in particular are practically always populated with a fairly high skill level for pubs, especially compared to the average Valve server.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If players on the losing team quit then that also forces people on the stacked team to autobalance, I don't see how it's any different. In any case I don't think anybody ever did the spectator exploit to help their team, they did it to stack onto the other side and make it more unbalanced. I did it occasionally but really if things are that bad I'd just as soon go find another server.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:26
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What ever balancing that the valve servers used for the last load of years was great, I have no complaints. This new system is terrible I cannot stress this enough. Completely one sided rolls.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:34
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I don't see how you can play on non-Valve servers. They all have 0 respawn time bullshit. I was playing on some Skial servers, and it's not fun to kill someone and have them instantly respawn. You have to spawn camp to get anything accomplished.
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Nov 6, 2014 21:48
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Jippa posted:What ever balancing that the valve servers used for the last load of years was great, I have no complaints. This new system is terrible I cannot stress this enough. Completely one sided rolls.
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Nov 6, 2014 22:16
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Krenzo posted:I don't see how you can play on non-Valve servers. They all have 0 respawn time bullshit. I was playing on some Skial servers, and it's not fun to kill someone and have them instantly respawn. You have to spawn camp to get anything accomplished. Because a lot of them don't actually do this? We're talking about the community servers that are worth playing on; like the ones in the op.
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Nov 6, 2014 22:21
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Krenzo posted:I don't see how you can play on non-Valve servers. They all have 0 respawn time bullshit. I was playing on some Skial servers, and it's not fun to kill someone and have them instantly respawn. You have to spawn camp to get anything accomplished. Try using the server browser's filter function. You can filter out most of the servers with settings you don't want: norespawntime, alltalk, etc. Alternatively, consider checking out some of the recommended servers in the OP that your fellow posters think are fun places to video game.
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Nov 6, 2014 22:22
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Krenzo posted:I don't see how you can play on non-Valve servers. They all have 0 respawn time bullshit. I was playing on some Skial servers, and it's not fun to kill someone and have them instantly respawn. You have to spawn camp to get anything accomplished. Nocrit+nospread is definitely a better way to play, in the sense that you have to really kill someone and not just get a lucky number in the RNG. I could definitely go for a vote to turn those on, but I get the whole mechanic of letting bad players win too sometimes. But yeah, respawn time is a basic TF2 mechanic that heavily factors into all maps, but particularly the old ones. Instant-respawn Dustbowl or Goldrush Stage 3 is ludicrously easy to lock down if anyone on red is at the keyboard.
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Nov 6, 2014 22:47
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Alternatively, remove the Medic
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Nov 6, 2014 22:53
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qnqnx posted:Alternatively, remove the Medic 
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Nov 6, 2014 22:56
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qnqnx posted:Alternatively, remove the Medic Finally, the heavy/demo/soldier nerf we've all been waiting for.
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Nov 6, 2014 23:31
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I mean he's the second fastest, regenerates and has hands down the most powerful weapon in the game. Seems pretty obvious in retrospect.
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Nov 6, 2014 23:35
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10th class should be battle medic Give him something instead of a medigun that just turns him into a scoutheavy on steroids.
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Nov 6, 2014 23:55
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Remove the Engineer. I have compelling evidence that he's OP.
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Nov 6, 2014 23:55
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I would pay fat cash to be able to wrangle while using the rancho relaxo.
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Nov 7, 2014 00:03
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Moddington posted:I would pay fat cash to be able to wrangle while using the rancho relaxo. They robbed us of taunting detonations, I can't imagine they'll allow much else. Valve has taken away that and also the bottle breaking because they're apparently working off things that bring me joy.
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Nov 7, 2014 00:11
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CoolCab posted:They robbed us of taunting detonations, I can't imagine they'll allow much else. Valve has taken away that and also the bottle breaking because they're apparently working off things that bring me joy. If it makes you feel better, they added a broken model for the Scottish Handshake. ...In the same update they broke the Bottle's broken model from showing. 5 months ago.
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Nov 7, 2014 00:17
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Magypsy posted:If it makes you feel better, they added a broken model for the Scottish Handshake. Who do I email about this? How the gently caress am I supposed to get secret bonus damage now?!?
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Nov 7, 2014 00:35
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CoolCab posted:Who do I email about this? How the gently caress am I supposed to get secret bonus damage now?!? I love that this myth is so pervasive there's a tip that says "the broken bottle does NOT do more damage"
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Nov 7, 2014 00:39
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The medic is powerful but he a) requires some degree of teamwork and b) breaks stalemates, so I think he's fine.
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Nov 7, 2014 00:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The medic is powerful but he a) requires some degree of teamwork and b) breaks stalemates, so I think he's fine. It is also only countered by another medic.
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Nov 7, 2014 03:43
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cock hero flux posted:I was halloween santa the other day. Someone asked if I would give them any items for free. I was really generous and gave them 95 free items. I swear Gaston doubled the price of the pile of crates on his own. 
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Nov 7, 2014 03:51
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