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A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you sure these are the same people though? Plus, grudging acceptance is not the same as actually getting used to the map, so much as everything else being good enough to make up for it. What a shame that we no longer have the old map styles.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:23
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Please do not read the Paradox forums. I would expect that this is at least partly why he doesn't like those overractions  PleasingFungus posted:What a shame Oh god the original EU3 map was so bad I had forgotten  Why is it worse than the EU2 map? You would have thought that they would stick with 2D until the 3D map actually looked half decent.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:25
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I actually like that style. Only for that distance though. Gives it more of a map feel.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:32
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PleasingFungus posted:What a shame I admit I like Triangle/Heart Germany a lot.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:34
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Zeron posted:Personally I like the change. The new counter system displays exactly as much information as the old NATO counters(except it groups similar units so it's way easier to actually look at!) so as far as I can tell the only difference is that you get to look at pretty models if you zoom in close enough and you aren't likely to need all that info at that point anyway. Would also be nice to have the ability to manually give divisions said icons. It could also be used for hilarious counterintelligence purposes in multiplayer: all my infantry are now called tank divisions, and all my planes are now boats.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:49
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PleasingFungus posted:What a shame There's a nice vintage Austria Snake in the first one! The DW map (second image, for people who never played EU3) was really nice though. EU4's is certainly prettier but I don't think it's much better really.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:53
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Gimmick Account posted:I understand what you are trying to say (and I agree), but that's not the point that statement was making. Things like not being able to hold tournaments or go on hunts are unnecessary feature removals, even in a highly sexist medieval setting. You'd need to code a different set of tournament events for women (see Another Human's linked post above), but I really don't think that this aspect of the game should be any less interesting from a female perspective, even if you are more socially constrained in your options. I agree with you, but luckily it's really easy to mod and change yourself.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:54
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GSD posted:I admit I like Triangle/Heart Germany a lot. IIRC, it was an attempt to recreate the Imperial Eagle of Germany. It kinda works!
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Nov 10, 2014 22:01
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It's interesting to see where critique's of Paradox's design decisions go now that there are developers calling from inside the house.
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Nov 10, 2014 22:03
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PleasingFungus posted:What a shame I do think the current crop of modded maps for EU4 are starting to look really good, but I can't help but wonder what the "Strannik's HandDrawn Map" equivalent for EU4 could have looked like. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 22:03
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Jazerus posted:There's a nice vintage Austria Snake in the first one! I would have agreed with you before but the modded map I'm using now is just head and shoulders above anything I ever saw in EU3 in terms of visual clarity, presentation of information to the player (e.g. borders, terrain) and just straight up aesthetics. Though there were some pretty nice EU3 map mods (I especially remember that one which looked like an old flat map with little drawings of forests and marshes etc on it) and I feel like EU3 gave more options in that area for modding - or perhaps people just had more time to play with it to get results.
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Nov 10, 2014 22:03
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PleasingFungus posted:What a shame The DW zoomed-out map actually looks better than EU4's though.
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Nov 10, 2014 22:17
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Jazerus posted:There's a nice vintage Austria Snake in the first one! My personal favourites were the pre-DW map texture mods for EU3. Specifically TOT and HDM, from a purely aesthetical perspective. For usability, V2's map had all a man could ever ask for: a political mapmode in which you could see province terrain. Epinephrine posted:I think we'll survive with icon counters IF sufficient variety in icon counters to account for the varying types of divisions. Are those tanks light, medium, or heavy? Are those infantry motorized? NATO counters tell us at a glance. Icons could if done right (after all, NATO counters are icons) but so far all we have seen are infantry and armor icons. From the statements made, their icons/sprites will be made to maximise usefulness. The counters have a sort of aesthetic that makes me revolted that they're cut from the game.
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Nov 10, 2014 22:17
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RabidWeasel posted:Oh god the original EU3 map was so bad I had forgotten That's not even the original, it's from Heir to the Throne    This is the original original 
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Nov 10, 2014 22:27
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GrossMurpel posted:The DW zoomed-out map actually looks better than EU4's though. Nah. (I honestly have never really felt there was anything wrong with EU4's map. People say it looks doughy and weird but I think it looks fine  )
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Nov 10, 2014 22:33
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SeaTard posted:I agree with you, but luckily it's really easy to mod and change yourself. Funny, I've actually had this exact exchange with someone in the other thread. It's easy to mod Crusader Kings 2 superficially, yes, but as I found out during a reformed Suomenusko game waaay back, just having your realm set to an absolute cognatic law will not change a lot of things that are going on 'under the hood', so to say. Many events have flat 'female = no' conditions snuck into them somewhere that disregard all laws, so I couldn't actually go on hunts, for example. The viking warrior events do not happen for reformed Norse queens who have absolute cognatic primogeniture modded in, either. There's a lot that needs to be changed internally about the way the game treats gender issues, so that they can be decided by realm law instead. Only THEN will this stuff actually be 'easy to mod'.
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Nov 10, 2014 22:41
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SeaTard posted:I agree with you, but luckily it's really easy to mod and change yourself.  As someone who mods this game, there's nothing easy about modding.
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Nov 10, 2014 22:59
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Also there's plenty of things that can't be easily modded, like the AI marrying off women in Absolute Cognatic realms almost the same way they could marry off women in Agnatic realms, and I end up noticing the sister I gave the Duchy of Normandy to decided to regular marry her second oldest to a 56 year old hunchback Count. Yeah thanks, I was totally trying to give that dude's dynasty a claim on the Kingdom of France. I get that the middle ages were not a time of progressive thought or anything, but a lot of these restrictions and problems with female rulers really can make the game feel unfun at times. Plus if my realms succession laws treat women and men equally, I find it hard to believe everyone would still be marrying off their 16 year old daughters with strong claims to the kingdom to random counts.
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Nov 10, 2014 23:02
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:
Maybe I've just been doing it for too many years, but it's pretty straight forward, especially when you are simply changing something that already exists. AI things of course are a whole different story, which as the others said, is a definite downside to making Absolute Cognatic available to everyone. It seems to work best when combined with a religion that allows sibling marriages, especially if you make sure that the majority of your realm is also the same dynasty.
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Nov 10, 2014 23:16
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Farecoal posted:
Oh God, I remember this. And when EU3 came out Austria was red for some reason. Good times.
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Nov 10, 2014 23:25
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SeaTard posted:Maybe I've just been doing it for too many years, but it's pretty straight forward, especially when you are simply changing something that already exists. I've also been modding Paradox games for over a decade, but there's seriously nothing 'straightforward' about, for example, finding every single reference to females scattered across all the event files and then trying to engineer a solution that does what you want without making the whole interconnected thing collapse. Note that I'm not arguing for a removal of the female ban on certain activities, just for making it based on realm law and opening THAT part up where appropriate. I would really appreciate it if the people who did this kind of stuff for a living every day tried their hand at repairing the gender/fun divide instead of me, the happy amateur.
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Nov 10, 2014 23:30
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Hey y'all whats going on in here? Sorry just rollin' out in my flame tank.
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Nov 10, 2014 23:37
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ArchangeI posted:I feel like the counter/sprite distinction in HoI is such a core part of the series Hey I just wanted to back this conversation up and ask to you: are you loving serious right now
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Nov 11, 2014 00:00
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BBJoey posted:Hey I just wanted to back this conversation up and ask to you: are you loving serious right now Perhaps the distinction less than the ability to play with counters at every level, but yeah. Counters have been in the HoI series longer than pretty much every other part of the game you see. It just seems silly to now suddenly decide that they were actually bad all this time. It'd be like EA going "You know, vehicles in Battlefield are actually not that fun, so we're going to only make them available as killstreak bonuses from now on."
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Nov 11, 2014 00:53
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except not because counters have literally no effect on the gameplay. Just say its a creature comfort your irrationally attached to. Christ, this aint debate club, you aint gotta explain poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:00
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ArchangeI posted:Perhaps the distinction less than the ability to play with counters at every level, but yeah. Counters have been in the HoI series longer than pretty much every other part of the game you see. It just seems silly to now suddenly decide that they were actually bad all this time. It'd be like EA going "You know, vehicles in Battlefield are actually not that fun, so we're going to only make them available as killstreak bonuses from now on." Counters have been in the game longer than Germans, battles, tanks, Europe
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Nov 11, 2014 01:00
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Wait, where are you all seeing this? What do you see on HoI4 if you're all zoomed out? Do you just see helmets in the distance or something?
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Nov 11, 2014 01:05
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   This is the closeup stuff.  This is what you see if you're zoomed out.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:07
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ArchangeI posted:Perhaps the distinction less than the ability to play with counters at every level, but yeah. Counters have been in the HoI series longer than pretty much every other part of the game you see. It just seems silly to now suddenly decide that they were actually bad all this time. It'd be like EA going "You know, vehicles in Battlefield are actually not that fun, so we're going to only make them available as killstreak bonuses from now on." Okay. Looking at this picture:  Could you please explain to me how the difference between the unit icons in HoI 4 and the counters in HoI 2 or 3 is in any way, shape or form comparable to removing a major gameplay feature from a different game? Like I honestly do not comprehend what you are saying. When I think "major gameplay features" of the Hearts of Iron games, I think combat systems (for land, air and sea), army creation (down to at least the division level), industry management and a bit of politics/espionage/diplomacy. I do not think "the exact specifics of how units are represented on screen", because as long as it's functional (and based on the screenshots we know that is the case - we see unit type, number, strength and organisation all on the same card which is either the same as or more than HoI 2 or 3 had) it doesn't loving matter. e: and keep in mind, those unit icons are visible at every single zoom level. Is it seriously a deal breaker for you that in addition to the most detailed and intuitive unit icons Paradox has made, a little sprite is there as well? BBJoey fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 01:08
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I think I've figured out what everyone is so upset about. See the unit icon and counter? Now look left, more left, there. Benghazi.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:14
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fermun posted:
Guys... ...guys. Guys. loving guys. You still haven't fixed the flags of the Netherlands and Yugoslavia. You still have the two the wrong way around! Like, come the gently caress on, you had this poo poo wrong back in DD8 at the very least, and that was three months ago! Oh, and yes, it's "Netherlands", not "Holland". It doesn't work that way. I only live next to the Netherlands and I worked this out.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:23
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BBJoey posted:Okay. Looking at this picture: Deal Breaker? No. Important enough to make a post in an internet message board thread about the game? Yes. I just thought that the counter/sprites system was something that paradox had gotten perfectly right before and that didn't need any improvements. It's not just the way information is presented on the screen, it is also part of the entire look and feel of the game. Sprites are not something I think of when I think HoI. As long as I could chose between one or the other, there was no problem, but now paradox has apparently decided that mandatory soldier figurines are necessary instead of optional. But like I said, I'm perfectly willing to wait for a demo to be proven wrong and stupid. Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:Counters have been in the game longer than Germans, battles, tanks, Europe They have been in exactly as long as Germans, battles, tanks and Europe, yes.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:24
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I'm less concerned about the counters and more concerned that I'm definitely gonna need a better computer to have a hope in hell of displaying that map. I can't even drag-select in EU IV without things breaking, this is gonna destroy me  .
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Nov 11, 2014 01:44
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As a new player to the series I have no idea what any of this is about but I find it very amusing that people are so concerned about lines/map colors/unit icons.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:47
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You guys are really worked up on how the map looks in map game.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:50
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Rutibex posted:As a new player to the series I have no idea what any of this is about but I find it very amusing that people are so concerned about lines/map colors/unit icons. As an old player of this series I know exactly what this is about, and I find it absolutely hilarious that some of the people here complaining about the lack of counters or the extra prettiness on the map are the same people who railed against the guy who wanted population pyramids in V3. Also I really like the new hybrid counter/model system and if you have the option to change the little helmet icons to NATO mode that'll be enough for me.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:55
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Rutibex posted:As a new player to the series I have no idea what any of this is about but I find it very amusing that people are so concerned about lines/map colors/unit icons.   Each counter represents ~10,000 soldiers, and the type of soldiers they are represented by symbols. That has been changed to the new setup where there's a symbol of a helmet to say they are infantry instead of a counter with an X on it and a number 1 means ~10,000 soldiers, whereas 2 means ~20,000 soldiers, etc.. Additionally there is now a small icon of a man on the map instead of just being the counter and people do not want that man to be there. Then there's also been a change to make the terrain map have a ~1 province wide colored border instead of coloring every province on the map to show control.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:58
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I just hope that in hoi4 there's enough room in the tech tree for the inevitable cold war extension mods.
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Nov 11, 2014 01:58
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fermun posted:Then there's also been a change to make the terrain map have a ~1 province wide colored border instead of coloring every province on the map to show control. Which, frankly, is probably the most offensive change. Purely political map mode FOREVER!
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Nov 11, 2014 02:05
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Dang that's blue.  That's really blue. Like, Beyond Earth fails to look as unearthly as that. (I like it) My only real concern about the counters is that the new ones seem a lot smaller and potentially easy to read. Also it fucks up the atmosphere of the thing, but that one was a goner as soon as the bright and cheerful map walked in the door.
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Nov 11, 2014 02:07
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