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Indolent Bastard posted:I have some recollection of the "artist" saying that the 40k empire of man was a fascist regime and so using nazi iconography seemed appropriate. Less, "Hitler had some good ideas", and more "fascists are fascists so why not use potentially offensive imagery"? Which begs the question of, "why not use actual fascist iconography like the Italian fasces?" Why does it have to be Nazis? Why can't you reference WWII Germany without going head over heals into Nazi fetishism? Like I said in my previous posts, it is possible to build and paint an army that exudes the feel of WWII Germany without being "that Nazi guy". Use the camo schemes the Germans used, but use the Imperium's own iconography. Anyone with knowledge of historical gaming or WWII in general will be able to pick out the three-tone camo pattern fairly easily and you can be chummy chums. Don't make your tanks lumbering shrines to Hitler and Nazism.
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Nov 19, 2014 05:56
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moths posted:That poo poo pisses me right off, while at the same time I'm OK playing historical games that have actual model Nazis in them. It's also at least partly because military sci-fi has often been used as a cover for people who really wish they could be writing about exterminating the jews, but understand they'll get a lot further writing about purging 'the unclean' and the 'Hascidivan Xenos of Jehoshaphat V' or whatever. I think there was a book written about that, about what kind of sci-fi Hitler would've written if he'd become a moderately successful sci-fi writer, called the Iron Dream. So when someone straight up paints their Catholic Space Nazis as actual Catholic Space Nazis full of swastikas and racial purity crap, it's easy to get the sense that whatever they say, it really means 'Hitler Had Him Some Ideas.'
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Nov 19, 2014 06:09
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Genghis Cohen posted:I found that guy's conversions and followed his rough guide. As an aside, can you link to the guide? I want to look it over, maybe something to try my hand at if I ever decide to put together another GW model.
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Nov 19, 2014 06:26
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YF19pilot posted:Hell, the Germans learned that big obvious markings make excellent targets when the Polish anti-tank gunners kept hitting their tanks in that exact spot! 40k is obviously meant to be over the top in it's premise and regalia, but if you want "German WWII" aesthetic without being "that guy" who puts swastikas on everything, why not just stick to basic German Field Gray or the classic trio of Dunkelgelb/Olivgrun/Rotbraun that adorned so many PIVs? Or you know what, don't paint loving space Nazis in a game that doesn't have space Nazis! I'm totally fine with people painting stuff up German Field Grey with converted period helmets, because that can look pretty cool and it reminds me of the Dust Tactics stuff which is tastefully done Axis in alternate WWII and most Axis players don't throw swastikas everywhere because a) they fluffed it so Hitler and all his main men got killed off and replaced by people who weren't frothing mad over segregation, and b) painting bigass swastikas on your tanks is a sure-fire way to make sure you get shot there. It also makes you look like a white supremacist.
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Nov 19, 2014 08:19
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That's a bit of a myth. While Poland trained with lances up to the start of the war and still fielded cavalry, they never tried to charge tanks with them. It makes for a neat mental image and a good Corb Lund song, but that's about it.
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Nov 19, 2014 08:26
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BULBASAUR posted:Yeah, being from Russia I would not be surprised to see a swastika on a tank some boy is playing with or some model an older dude modeleded up. The war is not forgotten over there. On the other hand 40k minis aren't at all connected and here in the west I fully expect anybody painting one to be doing it because they are a closet white power supporter. Slimnoid posted:It has to do with context. This right here is why I answered the way I did earlier when someone was like "why do you have to assume someone is a literal Nazi if they have a Nazi-themed army?" I don't have to assume it but I'm going to assume that they're either the specialest edgelord or a closet white power schmuck if they go to the trouble of doing up their spacemans army in Hugo Boss outfits, even if they dance around it and go "teehee, but they're not literally Nazis you see." You're free to bring your Nazi-themed army to the table but I'm free to make uncharitable assumptions about you because context is a thing that exists. If you really, really want to move Nazi army men around there are plenty of historical games (and even in historical gaming there are those folks who always insist on playing Nazi Germany and that seems a little weird but whatever, it's historical gaming, riiiiiight up until the point where they decide to tell you all about how Hitler was really misunderstood and how the Holocaust statistics were completely overblown and hey where are you going).
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Nov 19, 2014 08:36
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HiveCommander posted:I find the thought of Polish military doing something effectively to be quite unbelievable, considering they were the ones that issued the last cavalry charge in history (against a Panzer division of all things, which is like sprinting at a double-brick wall and expecting to go through!). Good job falling for Nazi propaganda 70+ years after the fact. While the Polish did use cavalry during WW2, so did every other army. And while they did do a few charges on horse back, they mostly fought as dismounted infantry, using their horses to get near the fighting. The charge where the Nazi's said they attacked tanks was actually a charge against infantry that successfuly caused the German infantry to flee, before a counter attack of armored cars and light tanks forced the Polish Calvary to retreat. The Germans after the fact claimed the Polish cavalry charged theirs tanks and were cut down.
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Nov 19, 2014 11:32
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ElBrak posted:Good job falling for Nazi propaganda 70+ years after the fact. While the Polish did use cavalry during WW2, so did every other army. And while they did do a few charges on horse back, they mostly fought as dismounted infantry, using their horses to get near the fighting. The charge where the Nazi's said they attacked tanks was actually a charge against infantry that successfuly caused the German infantry to flee, before a counter attack of armored cars and light tanks forced the Polish Calvary to retreat. The Germans after the fact claimed the Polish cavalry charged theirs tanks and were cut down. Thank gently caress someone else said it. Every time with this poo poo.
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Nov 19, 2014 11:55
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Since we're already a bit OT with the Nazy thing, I'll add my 2 cents as an historical German player. Yes, it is very different to collect a German army for a game like Bolt Action or Chain of Command. Historical gamers usually have an actual interest in the period and campaigns and such, but are also usually a lot more detached from the actual forces involved. If we want to play Barbarossa battles at the club, we'll simply need a Russian army and a German army. While I might try to win a game with my Germans against the Russians, I'm not sighing when reading about how "my" force got trashed during Operation Bagration. I'm not rooting for Germany in WW2: I'm reading up about the entire conflict as a hobby history buff, and collecting and painting a specific slice of the forces involved in that conflict. I'm interested in how the infantry tactics on both sides gradually evolved, how equipment changed and how new tank models replaced the old ones and why. But I'd be just as likely to help the Italian player paint up some Bersaglieri or the Russian player some BT-7 tanks. I'm simply less detached to "my" force, and I'm already planning to paint up some British guys when I feel satisfied with the German force that I'm currently working on. (Of course there are the odd creepy guy who just have to play SS in every game ever, but those are a small minority and I've never seen one in person.) Also, I would agree that it is bizarre how obvious the 40K Nazi stuff is. How many swastikas do I have on my historically painted 1941 Heer infantry company? Not a single one. How many swastikas are on my historically painted tank support? Not a single one. They used the simplified black and white iron cross that is almost identical to the one used by the German army today. If you want your army to look like German WW2 forces, just paint your uniforms feldgrau and your tanks schwartzgrau, and you're home. Not even the SS used that kind of stuff in the field.
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Nov 19, 2014 12:05
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Now all we need is a Rommel fan to drop in and talk about the African war being clean and good!  Ogre kingdom pro painted conversion warhammer asian japanese  I'd call it tabletop standard, but uhh.
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Nov 19, 2014 12:06
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I have to say that I am surprised that I have yet to see some closeted Nazi try and adapt the 21st SS Panzer Division logo for his 40k Nazi division.  "Oh that? That is just an innocent Aquila." Edit: The Crotch posted:That's a bit of a myth. While Poland trained with lances up to the start of the war and still fielded cavalry, they never tried to charge tanks with them. It makes for a neat mental image and a good Corb Lund song, but that's about it. Actually, it wasn't a myth, it actually happened once, and only once during the campaign, though it wasn't as much of a "there are some tanks over there, charge them" tactical decision as much as it was more of an accident combined with very poor intelligence/propaganda on the part of the Polish. (They attacked what was thought to be a light infantry brigade and ran into an armored column) Some Polish cavalry did survive somehow. Now I need to read that book about tank warfare in the early war again. jadebullet fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 13:24
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35th SS must have been all "Yeah... we got the most boring symbols for our division..." Also that ogre... I am thinking it's supposed to be a Slaanesh Chaos Ogre? Why else would it have a bunch of 'man' symbols all over it? Unless he wants his opponents to know that he's comfortable in his sexuality whilst wearing Oriental garb and some kind of... hat, which looks like a semi-cooked pizza base.
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Nov 19, 2014 13:36
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Fun fact: the worst tabletop player I've ever met was a guy who has no qualms about his Holocaust denial beliefs. He was a Space Marine player. Now shut up about Nazis. Communists are in thing right now. 
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Nov 19, 2014 13:38
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YF19pilot posted:As an aside, can you link to the guide? I want to look it over, maybe something to try my hand at if I ever decide to put together another GW model. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?210465-Arnan-317th-quot-Death-s-Own-quot-iPaint-s-IG-Log/page9 Starts on there and goes on to the next page of the thread. To the kind comments, thanks. I do think it's a point of unspiration though when I see someone doing a scratchbuild or similar that displays so much precision, and loving talent, and then the guy goes and does it all over the place so it's obviously not taking him that long, etc. It's depressing - why/how are some people so loving great at this? I'm talking dudes who scratchbuild (good) titans, or some custom made full terrain boards. It's amazing what you can see these days and I think it sort of warps our perception of everyday 'good' modelling.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:08
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I'm pretty sure they just do it once and cast molds of their conversion. That's what I tell myself, anyway.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:16
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A few days ago, one guy on FoW FB page posted something about feeling "uncomfortable" about playing WWII Germans. I managed to refrain from calling him a few choice words I learned during my tenure on 4Chan, but only barely so. I'd say this kind of sentiment is no less absurd than atheist not playing DnD because there are gods or a Christrian not playing DnD because there a gods (instead of God). Now, Communist party is illegal in my country, since we had 50 years to see the good it could bring (and any kind of commie sympathizer is Russian puppet waiting to happen). But I would never assume that a commie player on FoW is an actual commie. Probably same with playing SS. What you seem to forget is that SS lists are usually the super elite lists and some people just like power gaming/saving on miniatures. ...the preceding may or may not have anything to do with the topic at hand. I guess it might be cultural thing in the US, all the closeted Nazis. At least, I assume most of the stuff I read comes from US player experience. Any Brits, Canadians, non-english speakers want to pitch in?
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Nov 19, 2014 17:51
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JcDent posted:A few days ago, one guy on FoW FB page posted something about feeling "uncomfortable" about playing WWII Germans. I managed to refrain from calling him a few choice words I learned during my tenure on 4Chan, but only barely so. I'd say this kind of sentiment is no less absurd than atheist not playing DnD because there are gods or a Christrian not playing DnD because there a gods (instead of God). I think that it's entirely understandable to be uncomfortable about playing Germans in World War II games, and I don't see the linkage between religion in a fantasy world and an actual army that supported a fascist, racist ideology that cost million of lives.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:05
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JcDent posted:A few days ago, one guy on FoW FB page posted something about feeling "uncomfortable" about playing WWII Germans. I managed to refrain from calling him a few choice words I learned during my tenure on 4Chan, but only barely so. I'd say this kind of sentiment is no less absurd than atheist not playing DnD because there are gods or a Christrian not playing DnD because there a gods (instead of God). As a Canadian I wouldn't personally want to play a WWII German army but I wouldn't care if someone else did (assuming that they weren't a neo-nazi). The problem is that neo-nazis are still around in many parts of the world and the nazis did some pretty loving horrific things and that kinda sucks the fun out of pushing little tanks around and rolling dice. Also, stop getting so mad about tabletop games, it isn't healthy. E: Half your posts have been about how you get knee-jerk mad about things, I'm worried about you Improbable Lobster fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 18:09
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Why do people take doll games so seriously? Is it the spectrum?
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Nov 19, 2014 18:13
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Darren MacLennan posted:I think that it's entirely understandable to be uncomfortable about playing Germans in World War II games, and I don't see the linkage between religion in a fantasy world and an actual army that supported a fascist, racist ideology that cost million of lives. I think people uncomfortable with playing Germans in a WW2 game are just as stupid and weird as the ones who will only play Germans. If you cannot divorce the aesthetics of miniatures from the human tragedy of the concentration camps then you have the emotional development of a child. My friend's Grandad was on HMS Barham when it was torpedoed, doesn't mean that he didn't enjoy sinking the Barham in Silent Hunter III.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:30
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:I think people uncomfortable with playing Germans in a WW2 game are just as stupid and weird as the ones who will only play Germans. If you cannot divorce the aesthetics of miniatures from the human tragedy of the concentration camps then you have the emotional development of a child. If you can't accept people feeling differently about the things you like and have to call them children for not liking them the way you do then you have the etc. etc.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:32
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:I think people uncomfortable with playing Germans in a WW2 game are just as stupid and weird as the ones who will only play Germans. If you cannot divorce the aesthetics of miniatures from the human tragedy of the concentration camps then you have the emotional development of a child. "...and that's turn six, game. Alright, the German side won! I wonder what happens next?" "Well, I guess they'll probably filter out all of the Jews, shoot them in a ditch outside of town, burn the place down and throw some bodies down the well so that the advancing Russian hordes can't use them." "...yaaaaaayyy..."
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Nov 19, 2014 18:32
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That plus emotional, time, and monetary investment. But I both like this and have autism, so I might not be a good source.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:33
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jadebullet posted:I have to say that I am surprised that I have yet to see some closeted Nazi try and adapt the 21st SS Panzer Division logo for his 40k Nazi division. 25ss and 26ss are canon space marine markings (sans the crowns) :iamafag:
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Nov 19, 2014 18:37
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JcDent posted:But I would never assume that a commie player on FoW is an actual commie. Probably same with playing SS. WWII games have this weird circular thing about them, where at first it feels super weird to see people having fun playing nazis, then you begin to get the idea behind historical games and then finally you realise there actually are quite a few nazi fetishists among the gamers. Not as much holocaust deniers, but rather Hugo Boss and chivalrous wehrmacht myth afficionados. The SS list thing, the exaggerated elitism, is actually spawned from these guys being a very real market force. I mean, it's fine to follow history and have them be dudes with like, higher morale or shiniest new tanks available, but is there really a reason nearly all WWII board wargames find it imperative to differentiate SS units by a separate, black, color scheme of the counters, instead of just giving them better numbers? That's like, skeezy fanservice for grogs. PS. I recall some old Avalon Hill game having pink SS counters. Sadly, I can't recall which one was that.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:40
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Darren MacLennan posted:"...and that's turn six, game. Alright, the German side won! I wonder what happens next?" If someone is so traumatised by an event that happened seventy years ago to other people that they cannot play a game based upon an abstracted recreation of history involving bad people then perhaps they should either grow the gently caress up or consider just playing something based in pure fiction. The Nazis were undeniably evil. The Soviets were equally evil. The British Empire wasn't very pleasant, and the US isn't a stranger to genocide either. Do people feel uncomfortable playing those factions as well within the confines of an abstract game, or is it just the Germans? "I'm not comfortable playing the Germans" reeks of hypocritical hand-wringing bullshit.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:41
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Darren MacLennan posted:"...and that's turn six, game. Alright, the German side won! I wonder what happens next?" Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhah. Edit: haha
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Nov 19, 2014 18:43
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:"I'm not comfortable playing the Germans" reeks of hypocritical hand-wringing bullshit. There is no legitimate way someone wouldn't want action figures of the assholes who shot his grandpa, no way at all no sir. E: Gaming has a massive shortage of respect for others' boundaries and comfort levels. Going 4chan on someone because they're uncomfortable playing on team "literally threw millions of human beings into ovens" is not a sign that you're better-adjusted. Jesus. moths fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 18:48
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moths posted:There is no legitimate way someone wouldn't want action figures of the assholes who shot his grandpa, no way at all no sir. Hey man, his mate enjoyed sinking the ship that his grandpa served on, clearly these guys need to just deal with it 
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Nov 19, 2014 18:58
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In gaming it's never on people to behave and be respectful, it's always on everyone else to tolerate your poo poo no matter what and on you to complain when someone doesn't like you inside their boundaries.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:01
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I grew up playing historicals with my dad. He has no problem running really any army in any setting, whether it's Imperial Guard in 40k, Romans, Nazis, Polish, whatever. I never saw it as a big issue unless you start getting a little too into it and bringing your weird ideologies into other games where they don't belong. That being said, most of the Jewish guys he met playing WW2 games were playing SS and panzer korps armies so who the gently caress knows.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:33
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:If someone is so traumatised by an event that happened seventy years ago to other people that they cannot play a game based upon an abstracted recreation of history involving bad people then perhaps they should either grow the gently caress up or consider just playing something based in pure fiction. I'd be hesitant to call 'WWII' an 'event', first of all. Second of all, most people still have a personal connection with someone involved. My great-grandmother died in a concentration camp, and my grandmother only just survived one. My grandfather flew transports, and his brother fought in the Pacific. Secondly, most people don't really care about being 'the Germans', they care about being 'Germans during WWII', the same way I think people would probably have qualms about being 'the American soldiers killing lots of Indians' while they're fine with being just 'Americans'. I don't think people are having strokes or conniptions over being Germans in historical games, but the fact of the matter is they don't have to, and people are adults and can make their own choices, based upon whatever reasoning they'd like, and 'I don't want to be a Nazi in this game' isn't really a very juvenile stance to have.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:35
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No but you see, if I collect hundreds of toy soldiers representing the forces of Nazi Germany, but someone else finds that they personally would not want to, that means they're judging me and that makes me uncomfortable. And since I know I'm not doing anything wrong, it must be something wrong with them. How else can I resolve this cognitive dissonance? Heyyyy, so different people can have different feelings about a subject, and that doesn't mean one "side" is "wrong"? No, nope, I can't integrate that view, because I'm the one being an immature baby.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:51
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Leperflesh posted:No but you see, if I collect hundreds of toy soldiers representing the forces of Nazi Germany, but someone else finds that they personally would not want to, that means they're judging me and that makes me uncomfortable. And since I know I'm not doing anything wrong, it must be something wrong with them. How else can I resolve this cognitive dissonance? This, a thousand times. If you get all  up over whether or not someone else feels comfortable or not playing the Nazis in a tabletop wargame, then I humbly suggest that the problem does not lie with the other person.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:55
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Sydney Bottocks posted:This, a thousand times. If you get all I humbly suggest that such a person should not be playing historical war games then. Wanting to play war but then getting into a CARE-OFF about Nazis just means you're confused at best and a big gay baby at worst. And as you're all goons here i'm afraid it's likely to be terminal gay babyism.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:02
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I just think Nazi imagery in 40K is turd in a punchbowl levels of subtle and desirable, personally. It's an old line with lots of horrible, gross and stupid things going on in it, both in context and as a business, but that just gives you a lot of perfectly contextual horrible, gross and stupid things to slap on for your iconography. For any game? Do or don't play whatever side you want to, but don't be a loving creep about it. That shouldn't be difficult.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:04
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Regarde Aduck posted:I humbly suggest that such a person should not be playing historical war games then. Wanting to play war but then getting into a CARE-OFF about Nazis just means you're confused at best and a big gay baby at worst. And as you're all goons here i'm afraid it's likely to be terminal gay babyism. Which person should not be playing historical war games? The person who gets all  over not wanting to play the Nazis, or the person who gets all  over people who don't want to play the Nazis? I can kind of understand the former, but don't really get the latter. v v
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Nov 19, 2014 20:09
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You're dead right about the 40k imagery. A few weeks ago my wife asked why we own so much "Nazi poo poo" and I eventually worked out that she was talking about some Warhammer promo material I'd left upstairs. That was awkward.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:11
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I am pretty tired of the whole fascist Imperium aesthetic at this point.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:15
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Which person should not be playing historical war games? The person who gets all He means the person who will tell you they find playing Germans in WW2 #problematic, but have no such qualms about playing another faction which was also not very pleasant during that period. Wanting or not wanting to play any faction is fine, it's a personal preference. My point was that the people who go out of their way to say "I can't play Germans because it triggers me" are just as weird as the people who are over enthusiastic about why they only play them.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:16
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