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TIC you are free to engage with the rest of us and not those two or three rabid pro-murder-settler-kids people that got ran out of the last thread for being crazy fucks. I mean, you could do that, but that would get in the way of you snidely painting the entirety of anti-occupation criticism in this thread as coming from hateful antisemites, so nvm I guess. But what do I know, posting as I do from Eurabia, noted bastion of antisemitic terror and weekly purges of the rapidly dwindling Jewish population. Having said that I hope to gently caress that this blows over soon without another mountain of corpses, but that seems unlikely. Jesus christ
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Nov 19, 2014 17:00
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team overhead smash posted:I'm not even sure if there is room for debate there. After the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that the wall was okay with some minor changes based on it being for security purposes, didn't the government (much to the chagrin of the court) admit that the purpose of the wall was to annex the land and lead to the court condemning the government for lying to them? I'm sure I've seen that mentioned, possibly in Finkelstein's books, but I don't have any of them in front of me at the moment. The purpose of bringing that up was more of a "why don't you apologists defend actual meaningful policy decisions undertaken by the Israeli government rather than calling the rest of us anti semites". As for Rabin, the myth of "Rabin, the dove carrying the olive branch" is extremely overstated, he was a cynical politician like the rest of them, during the early stages of the Oslo accords implementation he built as many settlements as he could, in fact (as Norm often points out) it is historically evident that the Labor party has actually been de-facto a lot more pro settlements than the Likud. The Oslo accords themselves should not be viewed as a "roadmap for peace that got horribly sidetracked" like most Israeli centrists tend to claim, Chomsky's analysis has always seemed spot on to me: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199601--.htm
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Nov 19, 2014 17:02
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Atrocious Joe posted:Palestinians themselves are a weapon just by existing. Even palestinian reproduction is a threat to Israel, as the phrase "demographic bomb" illustrates... In a twisted way this guy gets it. At the end of the day the best weapon the palestinans have are the wombs of their young women. It`s the one weapon that Israel can not competently deal with. Rockets do not threaten them, suicide-bombers merely terrify and going around hacking random jews to death won`t stop them either. But demographics will make the current situation untenable for Israel. Forget about Arafat or Hamas, it is young mothers that will bring defeat to Israel.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:02
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murphyslaw posted:Having said that I hope to gently caress that this blows over soon without another mountain of corpses, but that seems unlikely. Jesus christ Gaza is still pretty fresh and this is West Bank. Israel can't bomb East Jerusalem now, can it? We'll see police assaults and collective punishment but that is nothing new when you live under apartheid and colonialism. Unless this really turns into another Intifada for real I think a massive death toll is unlikely.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:03
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Friendly Tumour posted:So what's the anti-israeli side's take on killing rabbis in synagogues with meat cleavers? Killing innocent civilians is wrong and the perpetrators are murderers as well as either criminals or more specifically war criminals depending on whether their actions would classify them as combatants or not. That said, leaving it at that and pretending that this happened in a vacuum doesn't serve anybody and is just burying our heads in the sand. This attack was clearly a response to the occupation and although the latter doesn't justify the former, the attack also doesn't justify Israel's response which even at this stage is to collectively punish civilians for daring to be related to criminals. This is also a war crime. Basically take is that people should stop committing all war crimes, including murders, retaliations against civilians and the illegal occupation of the Palestinian Territories.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:04
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Baudolino posted:In a twisted way this guy gets it. At the end of the day the best weapon the palestinans have are the wombs of their young women. It`s the one weapon that Israel can not competently deal with. Rockets do not threaten them, suicide-bombers merely terrify and going around hacking random jews to death won`t stop them either. But demographics will make the current situation untenable for Israel. Forget about Arafat or Hamas, it is young mothers that will bring defeat to Israel. And they know it, and will sink to much lower depths than this before Israel is defeated. 
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Nov 19, 2014 17:08
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Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? As I mentioned before, they are a militarized state with a significant part of the population having a military background. Let's ensure it's not the same "they're attacking civilians" bullshit argument used when Hamas uses rockets since the IDF puts military compounds next to hospitals.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:10
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"My war crime is justified by your crime"  Job Truniht posted:Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? As I mentioned before, they are a militarized state with a significant part of the population having a military background. Let's ensure it's not the same "they're attacking civilians" bullshit argument used when Hamas uses rockets since the IDF puts military compounds next to hospitals. Like their rockets have a legacy of being accurate or actually capable of doing significant damage, either. Not that it justifies their use....
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Nov 19, 2014 17:12
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Job Truniht posted:Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? As I mentioned before, they are a militarized state with a significant part of the population having a military background. Let's ensure it's not the same "they're attacking civilians" bullshit argument used when Hamas uses rockets since the IDF puts military compounds next to hospitals. Someone who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces or who is not taking a direct part of hostilities in an armed conflict. Certain people like medics and religious professionals could also be members of the armed forces without being combatants. Edit: Also the arguement against rockets is their disproportional casualty rate. It's not a war crime just because some civilians die because that is an unfortunate inevitability in war, it's that they mostly kill civilians. Rockets (although they don't kill many) are about 20 times more likely to kill a civilian than a soldier and combatants are required to make sure that attacks are concentrated against opposing armed forces rather than civilians, hence rockets being a war crime. Although it's worth noting that this arguement doesn't extend to mortars which are fairly accurate (although have much shorter range) and have mostly caused military deaths. They can be used without inherently being a war crime because although some civilians die they meet the criteria of proportionality in terms of mostly killing combatants. Source for death stats team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 17:13
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Job Truniht posted:Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? The cats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpqiHchsbE0
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Nov 19, 2014 17:16
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Job Truniht posted:Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? As I mentioned before, they are a militarized state with a significant part of the population having a military background. Let's ensure it's not the same "they're attacking civilians" bullshit argument used when Hamas uses rockets since the IDF puts military compounds next to hospitals. People shouldn't shoot rockets into Israel. The intent clearly isn't to hit military targets, and if it were, that wouldn't justify what is done.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:17
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Slightly off topic, but from our good friends at Dry Bones comics:pwn posted:
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Nov 19, 2014 17:18
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No True Scotsman, indeed.
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team overhead smash posted:Someone who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces or who is not taking a direct part of hostilities in an armed conflict. Certain people like medics and religious professionals could also be members of the armed forces without being combatants. A good answer and a good post.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:23
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CommieGIR posted:Slightly off topic, but from our good friends at Dry Bones comics: No. 03 would be "Reform Jews" and No. 04 would be "Beta Israelis", I presume.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:24
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I'm just fascinated by this conflict in terms of the moral quandaries it poses. Both Israel and Palestine (such as it is) are to a large extent, societies engaged in a very weird form of low-intensity total war. Both sides evidently consider each other's nominally civilian population as legitimate targets in a war of attrition.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:25
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http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-demolishes-family-home-of-palestinian-driver-who-killed-2-pedestrians.htmlquote:Israel sealed or destroyed the homes this summer of four other Palestinians who killed Jews, and did so twice in 2009, after halting the widespread practice in 2005 when a commission found that it rarely worked as a deterrent and instead inflamed hostility. They definitely aren't looking for a fight so they can take some more land, it's all about protecting themselves.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:27
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Friendly Tumour posted:I'm just fascinated by this conflict in terms of the moral quandaries it poses. Both Israel and Palestine (such as it is) are to a large extent, societies engaged in a very weird form of low-intensity total war. Both sides evidently consider each other's nominally civilian population as legitimate targets in a war of attrition. However one side is purposefully aggravating the other through slow annexation and colonization, while at the same time ensuring their victims are embargoed of necessary food, medical supplies, and shelter materials and segregating them from both themselves (walls running through the middle of Palestinian towns) and the state of Israel.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:27
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CommieGIR posted:However one side is purposefully aggravating the other through slow annexation and colonization, while at the same time ensuring their victims are embargoed of necessary food, medical supplies, and shelter materials and segregating them from both themselves (walls running through the middle of Palestinian towns) and the state of Israel. Oh the scales of power are definately stacked against Palestinians in this war, no doubt about it. Yet they too engage in with tactics in the same level of moral reprehensibility as their opponents by deliberately targeting civilians and innocent bystanders.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:32
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Friendly Tumour posted:Oh the scales of power are definately stacked against Palestinians in this war, no doubt about it. Yet they too engage in with tactics in the same level of moral reprehensibility as their opponents by deliberately targeting civilians and innocent bystanders. Desperation and the appearance of no hope do funny things to people.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:33
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CommieGIR posted:Desperation and the appearance of no hope do funny things to people. Do they? I'm not so sure about the truth of that common wisdom. I'm not convinced that these attacks were motivated by desperation as much they were by ideology and hatred. People are capable of sacrificing themselves if they believe they serve some greater good, which is sort of the opposite of desperation.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:37
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Friendly Tumour posted:Do they? I'm not so sure about the truth of that common wisdom. I'm not convinced that these attacks were motivated by desperation as much they were by ideology and hatred. People are capable of sacrificing themselves if they believe they serve some greater good, which is sort of the opposite of desperation. No, these attacks were not, but then again, if you are unwilling to accept the idea that the Israeli government is largely responsible for creating the very demons it claims to fight, the ideology and hatred is still largely their fault. Ideology and hatred comes from SOMETHING, and considering the most common cause in Palestine right now is the actions of the Israel government and their campaign of settlement building and disenfranchisement of the Palestinian population, the root blame is still theirs. Stop trying to dance around the issues.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:41
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CommieGIR posted:No, these attacks were not, but then again, if you are unwilling to accept the idea that the Israeli government is largely responsible for creating the very demons it claims to fight, the ideology and hatred is still largely their fault. I don't think moral condemnations of one or the other side of this conflict provide us with any new insights or create interesting discussions.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:46
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Friendly Tumour posted:Oh the scales of power are definately stacked against Palestinians in this war, no doubt about it. Yet they too engage in with tactics in the same level of moral reprehensibility as their opponents by deliberately targeting civilians and innocent bystanders. This argument only works within the framework of collective punishment of the Palestinians, which Israel wholly subscrbes to. The Palestinian as a whole operate on different frameworks of legitimacy, and the UN at least recognizes that fact. Nobody should be held accountable for the stabbings except the perpetrators themselves. Israel's vision of perceived racial punishment needs to stop. That is why everyone in this thread thinks this is going to escalate.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:47
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Friendly Tumour posted:I don't think moral condemnations of one or the other side of this conflict provide us with any new insights or create interesting discussions. Nor does denial of root causes of the conflict at large. You are trying to pull a 'Eye for an Eye' scenario where it doesn't work.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:47
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Friendly Tumour posted:I don't think moral condemnations of one or the other side of this conflict provide us with any new insights or create interesting discussions. Are new insights possible, or interesting discussions?
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Nov 19, 2014 17:48
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Job Truniht posted:This argument only works within the framework of collective punishment of the Palestinians, which Israel wholly subscrbes to. The Palestinian as a whole operate on different frameworks of legitimacy, and the UN at least recognizes that fact. Nobody should be held accountable for the stabbings except the perpetrators themselves. Israel's vision of perceived racial punishment needs to stop. That is why everyone in this thread thinks this is going to escalate. Oh I think it's going to escalate too, what I'm interested in are the possible outcomes of that escalation.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:48
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Effectronica posted:Are new insights possible, or interesting discussions? Well I don't know, but one surefire way to ensure that none arise is to keep banging the "Israeli is the baddie here" drum until the thread gets locked again
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Nov 19, 2014 17:50
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well I don't know, but one surefire way to ensure that none arise is to keep banging the "Israeli is the baddie here" drum until the thread gets locked again I think that the last one was closed due to a certain poster drumming the "Israel is totally gonna nuke Iran, it's gonna be awesome!!!" drum. Israel is the bad guy, the only reason this thread devolves into poo poo is due to certain posters insisting that anyone criticizing Israel must have a secret anti-semitic agenda.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:52
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well I don't know, but one surefire way to ensure that none arise is to keep banging the "Israeli is the baddie here" drum until the thread gets locked again Well, I don't know, committing recognized war crimes and defying the UN tends to make you look kinda bad. Oh, and mass punishment. That's an acceptable thing, right? Totally can't understand why the Palestinian's are peeved.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think that the last one was closed due to a certain poster drumming the "Israel is totally gonna nuke Iran, it's gonna be awesome!!!" drum. Well whichever drum it was, together they make a lovely drum orchestra that drowns out everything of possible interest. In my opinion anyway. I'm probably wrong, since I'm not a veteran of I/P threads.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:55
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well whichever drum it was, together they make a lovely drum orchestra that drowns out everything of possible interest. In my opinion anyway. I'm probably wrong, since I'm not a veteran of I/P threads. Discussing the I/P conflict involves knowing the root cause and the issues presented that are standing in the way, which, like it or not is largely the Israeli Government and their actions. Sorry. That's just the way it is. If you do not wish to discuss this, you should probably not be in the I/P thread. But to treat the conflict as if both sides are equally responsible is just bad rationale.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:58
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well I don't know, but one surefire way to ensure that none arise is to keep banging the "Israeli is the baddie here" drum until the thread gets locked again Thing is, there aren't many moderates. If you aren't pro-Palestinian, you either don't care or are pro-Israeli 99% of the time, which limits discussion, because pro-Israel correlates strongly with believing Palestinians are plotting genocide. And the situation is basically static.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:00
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CommieGIR posted:Discussing the I/P conflict involves knowing the root cause and the issues presented that are standing in the way, which, like it or not is largely the Israeli Government and their actions. Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:01
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Friendly Tumour posted:Oh I think it's going to escalate too, what I'm interested in are the possible outcomes of that escalation. It's been half-a-century of the same in one way or the other, we pretty much know for sure what the outcome is. Discussing that isn't going to lead into avenues that are any more interesting. Israel has Palestinians completely at their mercy in every possible way, they are a subject population with no capacity to change their fortunes. No matter if Palestinians have been peaceful or violent, Israel has never stopped it's colonization. Only actors who can change anything are Israel itself and United States that stands in the way of rest of the world sanctioning Israel (because everybody hates Israel). The most logical outcome is a single-state solution when US inevitably stops supporting Israel and the rest of the world sanctions it into submission and the end of the Jewish State when that state wont be allowed to be an apartheid state. There will be too many settlers by then for anything else to be feasible. Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out. No but if you don't recognize it's main motives - preserving Jewish supremacy and acquiring more land - you have no hope of analyzing it's actions or predict accurate outcomes to anything about the conflict. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 18:01
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Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out. No, what I was saying is your failure to recognize the issues behind the I/P conflict probably explains why you are becrying us for being critical of the Israeli Government and their actions.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:03
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DarkCrawler posted:The most logical outcome is a single-state solution when US inevitably stops supporting Israel and the rest of the world sanctions it into submission and the end of the Jewish State when that state wont be allowed to be an apartheid state. There will be too many settlers by then for anything else to be feasible. Is there any reason to think that both sides are willing to bury the hatchet and live in a single state without killing each other?
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Nov 19, 2014 18:03
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Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out. You shouldn't post here because you're posting lovely concern trolls, but that's not really new for these threads so you should probably be fine here.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:03
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CommieGIR posted:No, what I was saying is your failure to recognize the issues behind the I/P conflict probably explains why you are becrying us for being critical of the Israeli Government and their actions. I said no such thing, but since you seem to be a pretty bad poster I'm willing to allow you to continue believing that without argument.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:04
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well I don't know, but one surefire way to ensure that none arise is to keep banging the "Israeli is the baddie here" drum until the thread gets locked again I think everyone will agree that both sides are poo poo. I think however most of us would also specify is that Israel are shittier. Neither side should be committing awful war crimes, but in terms of quantity and scope Israel commits far more and far worse than all the Hamas militants put together. Every day every single Palestinian in the territories wakes up in an illegal occupation where their freedoms are restricted. Where if they're unlucky or perhaps to vocal in their dissent they might be arrested without trial and tortured. Or where they could lose their house because a relative commits a crime. Or they could lose their fields or groves because Israel simultaneously restricts access to areas and confiscates Palestinian land if it isn't worked enough. Even when we look at the type of war crimes where people die, Israel has killed more people and committed more war crimes. Just as every missile fired into Israel is inherently a war crime because of their inability to properly focus on legitimate military targets, so is every artillery shell with a large area of effect which is fired into a dense urban environment - of which Israel fired more than 4,000 just this year. However the big thing for me is that I view Israel as having the majority of the agency in the situation. The onus is on the occupier, not the occupied, to end the occupation. Israel has far more ability to effect radical change and strive for peace than Palestinians but it doesn't do so. The problem being, to me, that a notable minority of Israels want to annex the entirety of the West Bank and that (based on the last poll I saw) a majority of Israelis are not willing to accept peace on what I and the international community would consider a fair and reasonable basis (Peace, split Jerusalem, small exchange of land, a 'fair' but undefined resolution for refugees) even though this exceeds what Israel has any legal right to demand.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:06
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Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out. It's more about having the willingness to engage in honest good faith discussion, please see MIGF's posts in the first couple of pages of this thread for an example of dishonest posts that are intentionally designed to derail the thread, or TIC's posts that are just underhanded snide attacks against the "D&D hivemind" and claims that we're all antisemitic (despite the weird fact that some of us are actually Jewish Israelis but hey you know, it's not like this 'self hating jew' thing is new). If you want to have an open minded discussion about any aspect of the conflict there are many posters around here who'd love to give you a run for your money, most of us can even do so while remaining polite and civil.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:06
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