|
Friendly Tumour posted:Is there any reason to think that both sides are willing to bury the hatchet and live in a single state without killing each other? Not for Israel, no. Their hardliners are too powerful.
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 10:24 |
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:I said no such thing, but since you seem to be a pretty bad poster I'm willing to allow you to continue believing that without argument. Friendly Tumour posted:I don't think moral condemnations of one or the other side of this conflict provide us with any new insights or create interesting discussions. Friendly Tumour posted:Do they? I'm not so sure about the truth of that common wisdom. I'm not convinced that these attacks were motivated by desperation as much they were by ideology and hatred. People are capable of sacrificing themselves if they believe they serve some greater good, which is sort of the opposite of desperation. I'm sorry, what was that? You are discussing a conflict has a clear root cause, and discussing why that root cause continues to inflame said conflict is pertinent to the discussion. Stop trolling and actually discuss.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:Is there any reason to think that both sides are willing to bury the hatchet and live in a single state without killing each other? Yep. They're educated first world humans who will choose living in relative peace and prosperity with their families over economic isolation and civil war. Palestinians have shown their willingness to this when given the impression their conditions will actually improve, it is the fact that there is nothing pressuring Israelis to do the same is the problem.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:I think everyone will agree that both sides are poo poo. I think however, what I would point out, is that Israel are shittier. All of this is definately true, but then what hope is there for a peaceful conclusion of this war? As for the onus being up the Israeli butt... Which side would you say made the most important acts during the struggle of Indian independence? Granted, it was a wholly different kind of conflict, albeit with atrocities of similar magnitude on both the side of the oppressor and the oppressed. And yet, the oppressors, the British, couldn't hold back against the tide of history or were unwilling or incapable of committing the level of brutality that holding on to the Indian Empire would have required. emanresu tnuocca posted:It's more about having the willingness to engage in honest good faith discussion, please see MIGF's posts in the first couple of pages of this thread for an example of dishonest posts that are intentionally designed to derail the thread, or TIC's posts that are just underhanded snide attacks against the "D&D hivemind" and claims that we're all antisemitic (despite the weird fact that some of us are actually Jewish Israelis but hey you know, it's not like this 'self hating jew' thing is new). Yeah well, I haven't said a thing about antisemitism or that Israel is in the right to commit the atrocities they have. Just that repeating that doesn't really move us anywhere closer to an interesting discussion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:12
|
|
|
Nothing in this thread will do that regardless. We have no control over Israel's military policy, and they actively oppose and work to remove the few clear and morally acceptable solutions available.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:15
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:All of this is definately true, but then what hope is there for a peaceful conclusion of this war? As for the onus being up the Israeli butt... Which side would you say made the most important acts during the struggle of Indian independence? Granted, it was a wholly different kind of conflict, albeit with atrocities of similar magnitude on both the side of the oppressor and the oppressed. And yet, the oppressors, the British, couldn't hold back against the tide of history or were unwilling or incapable of committing the level of brutality that holding on to the Indian Empire would have required. The two situations really aren't very comparable for a variety of reasons.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:16
|
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:All of this is definately true, but then what hope is there for a peaceful conclusion of this war? As for the onus being up the Israeli butt... Which side would you say made the most important acts during the struggle of Indian independence? Granted, it was a wholly different kind of conflict, albeit with atrocities of similar magnitude on both the side of the oppressor and the oppressed. And yet, the oppressors, the British, couldn't hold back against the tide of history or were unwilling or incapable of committing the level of brutality that holding on to the Indian Empire would have required. And yet the Indians had a legitimate claim, regardless of the crimes that some may have committed among them. Still not very comparable to what is happening between Palestine and Israel Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah well, I haven't said a thing about antisemitism or that Israel is in the right to commit the atrocities they have. Just that repeating that doesn't really move us anywhere closer to an interesting discussion. Question: What actions do you believe the Palestinians have at their disposal to ease the Israeli governments actions against them. I'm serious, explain to me what the Palestinians can do to ease their situation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:16
|
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:All of this is definately true, but then what hope is there for a peaceful conclusion of this war? As for the onus being up the Israeli butt... Which side would you say made the most important acts during the struggle of Indian independence? Granted, it was a wholly different kind of conflict, albeit with atrocities of similar magnitude on both the side of the oppressor and the oppressed. And yet, the oppressors, the British, couldn't hold back against the tide of history or were unwilling or incapable of committing the level of brutality that holding on to the Indian Empire would have required. Well the hope is to change Israel's opinion as happened with South Africa. As for the onus, Britain's acts were the most important as the decision to end the Empire was the most important act of all and was in Britain's hands. Even when we look at the acts which influenced this, these were predominantly British because the basis of Britain's rule over India was its economic supremacy and status as a Great Power which was rapidly fading throughout the 20th century. The end of British India wasn't down uniquely Gandhi's unique pacifism, Britain was decolonising all over the globe because it was a receding power and was no longer able to maintain its hold. In many places there were rebellions. In some places this helped force out the British, as in the Aden Emergency, in others it did little but cause more death such as in the Mau Mau uprising. It was also a case of small island nation trying to control a sub-continent on the other side of the world along typical economic and antiquated imperialist lines, which is very different from the larger and directly adjacent Israel trying to control the oPT for political and nationalist reasons. Not very applicable and I'm also not sure the point you are trying to make even if it were. If the Indian struggle had been militant and violent, would that have somehow made the imperialism and occupation acceptable? If not, then what point are you trying to make and how does it relate? Edit: Also you saying that all of what I said is definitely true, which includes Israel being worse than the Palestinians, does not seem to match your earlier statement of "Yet they too engage in with tactics in the same level of moral reprehensibility as their opponents by deliberately targeting civilians and innocent bystanders." Is Israel worse, as you agreed with in the post just above, or are they at the same level of moral reprehensibility as you stated before? As far as I can see you are contradicting yourself and I'm not 100% sure where you now stand. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:32
|
|
|
So a teacher in Ashqelon thought it would be a good idea to send the following message to her students using WhatsApp: "In days like these it's important to remember that some Arabs are good! and that's where you can find them". Israelis_say_the_most_racist_shit.txt
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:39
|
|
|
Here's another good one: Some woman writes to Naftali Bennet: "Naftali, as you've previously called to start the operation against the tunnels you should call for the cleansing of east jerusalem from terrorism, this should include stripping people of their citizenship, destroying houses and denying social security privileges. We're counting on you, please let Bibi know we're sick of him" Naftali replies: "That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment." Yay.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:44
|
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:I'm just fascinated by this conflict in terms of the moral quandaries it poses. What quandaries does Israel/Palestine pose that apartheid-era South Africa, colonial Algeria or the genocide of the Native Americans doesn't? The fact that (some) victims of racist oppression will resist violently, including attacks on civilians, rather than live under a status quo in which they are treated as subhuman? Israel/Palestine is a black-and-white oppressor v. oppressed paradigm. It's really not that fascinating; just infuriating. Friendly Tumour posted:And yet, the oppressors, the British, couldn't hold back against the tide of history or were unwilling or incapable of committing the level of brutality that holding on to the Indian Empire would have required. Israelis have a much higher tolerance for bloodshed than the Brits did. During the First Intifada, when Palestinian society rose up in an act of concentrated civil disobedience, Israel reacted by expelling foreign observers and humanitarian-aid workers, rounding up tens of thousands of activists and electrifying their genitals and plucking out their toenails for crimes such as handing out flyers or attending illegal protests(all protests are illegal for Palestinians in the OT because they are granted no human rights) or merely being named as a subversive by the last torture victim and putting down protests with live ammunition. The government's actions were supported by the Israeli public by wide margins.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:The most logical outcome is a single-state solution when US inevitably stops supporting Israel and the rest of the world sanctions it into submission and the end of the Jewish State when that state wont be allowed to be an apartheid state. There will be too many settlers by then for anything else to be feasible. Do you think another intifada will make the US more or less likely to stop supporting Israel?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:56
|
|
|
 This photo and status were uploaded by the soldier who murdered at least one person in the demonstration in Bitunia, in the post he celebrates the fact that he concluded his mandatory three year military service and thanks his friends and commanders for all the good times they had. See that picture framed in red? That's a photo taken of him by activists on the day of the murders where he is seen firing into the crowd. His attorney now claims that this was all unintentional and that the soldier had no idea his was firing live rounds (despite the fact that he did it at least 4 different times on the very same day, with several hours separating some of the incidents) but here he is sharing this photo himself and celebrating all the good times. the most moral army, the most moral soldiers. Oh and by the way, the rumors are that the murder charges have already been downgraded to manslaughter, at this rate he's not going to get more than a slap on the wrist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 18:59
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Do you think another intifada will make the US more or less likely to stop supporting Israel? The only way you will cut US support to Israel is if we kick out the Zionist GOP'ers in the Legislative branch. Its not likely to happen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:03
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The only way you will cut US support to Israel is if we kick out the Zionist GOP'ers in the Legislative branch. The Democrats are just as Zionist as the Republicans. Hell, getting even Bernie Sanders to be critical of Israel (much less get him to acknowledge it being an apartheid state) was a hell of a challenge.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:07
|
|
|
It's unfortunately not just the GOP who supports Israel. 65 percent of Americans support Israel versus 15 percent for Palestine. I think most Americans think Palestinian=terrorist, and I dare say tactics like indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations are unlikely to move that number in the right direction.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:11
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:It's unfortunately not just the GOP who supports Israel. 65 percent of Americans support Israel versus 15 percent for Palestine. I think most Americans think Palestinian=terrorist, and I dare say tactics like indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations are unlikely to move that number in the right direction. Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts. There are no justifications. Everyone in the region is poo poo. Israel happens to be slightly less poo poo to Americans than others, so you have widespread American support for Israel. What I fear, and what I'm sure many fear, is that this intifada is a combination of organized goading and truly random, sporadic attacks. How long will those attacks remain in the ME? Will they spread, and what happens if they do?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:18
|
|
|
even if you disagree with the opposition, your're going to have a hard time justifying Israel's loving insane judicial system. In no civilized country is bulldozing the houses of suspects acceptable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:22
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:It's unfortunately not just the GOP who supports Israel. 65 percent of Americans support Israel versus 15 percent for Palestine. I think most Americans think Palestinian=terrorist, and I dare say tactics like indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations are unlikely to move that number in the right direction. >If you asked them if Attacking children playing soccer on the beach was acceptable the majority and even a plurality of the GOP would say no.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:22
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts. Explaining why attacks take place and that Israel could take non-violent measures that reduce them isn't justifying them. You're seriously a really dishonest person.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:23
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts. Why would it be hard? It doesn't seem to be hard to sympathize with people who take carefree selfies in bomb shelters because they know there is no real danger, while voting in psychopaths who kill thousands of innocent people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:25
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts. Prove. NONE of us want to justify these acts, but these acts are rooted in a deeper problem. This is not an honest argument. By the way, hows the plan to nuke Iran going?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:27
|
|
|
I think those attacks would be justified if they actually contributed to throwing Israel out, but they don't. And as long as the rest of the world resists the impulse to occupy and oppress palestine, I really don't see the violence spreading. Crowsbeak posted:>If you asked them if Attacking children playing soccer on the beach was acceptable the majority and even a plurality of the GOP would say no. If you asked them about Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach I think they'd say "it depends on what they were up to". Just like if you asked them about a police officer shooting an unarmed black teen. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Nov 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:28
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Do you think another intifada will make the US more or less likely to stop supporting Israel? It doesn't matter, because younger Americans don't give any more of a poo poo about the conflict then they do about anything else in the ME. At best it would raise awaraness for few months and then fade away, and Israel's inevitable massacres wouldn't exactly increase their support. America doesn't actually have to become anti-Israel for the rest of the world to deal with them, it just has to become ambivalent.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:29
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts. None of Hamas' tactics would've been possible if Israel wasn't baited into sporadic shootouts involving the leveling of Gaza every goddamn time. Hamas knows Israel is pushing unsustainable policy. Israel has been digging itself into a foreign policy hole for 30 years. That's what happens when you push for contradictory goals and expect to be taken seriously, as Kerry said.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:I think those attacks would be justified if they actually contributed to throwing Israel out, but they don't. The victim should not struggle as they are subdued, just accept that its going to happen. The Legitimate Rape of Palestine argument.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:I think those attacks would be justified if they actually contributed to throwing Israel out, but they don't. Yeah I think thats just you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:32
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:It doesn't matter, because younger Americans don't give any more of a poo poo about the conflict then they do about anything else in the ME. At best it would raise awaraness for few months and then fade away, and Israel's inevitable massacres wouldn't exactly increase their support. America doesn't actually have to become anti-Israel for the rest of the world to deal with them, it just has to become ambivalent. Look at America's policy history in sub-saharan Africa to see what happens when policy becomes ambivalent on outcomes. America has done, and continues to do, business with far worse actors than Israel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:32
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Look at America's policy history in sub-saharan Africa to see what happens when policy becomes ambivalent on outcomes. America has done, and continues to do, business with far worse actors than Israel. But seeing as this thread is about our abhorrent actions in supporting the Israeli government an the resulting Israeli-Palestinian conflict, MAYBE we should discuss that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:34
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Look at America's policy history in sub-saharan Africa to see what happens when policy becomes ambivalent on outcomes. America has done, and continues to do, business with far worse actors than Israel. I don't think the "business" is as much as a problem as the heaps of aid and weapons. Can you just stop posting stupid things for like a day?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:35
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Look at America's policy history in sub-saharan Africa to see what happens when policy becomes ambivalent on outcomes. America has done, and continues to do, business with far worse actors than Israel. Well my tax dollars arn't paying for them. Nor do they like to make claims about being some outpost of western civilization that Israel does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The victim should not struggle as they are subdued, just accept that its going to happen. So you think the only possible resistance is indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi-cleaving? I'm not suggesting palestinians should sit around doing nothing, I'm suggesting that random violence directed at the most sympathetic Israelis is counterproductive. DarkCrawler posted:It doesn't matter, because younger Americans don't give any more of a poo poo about the conflict then they do about anything else in the ME. At best it would raise awaraness for few months and then fade away, and Israel's inevitable massacres wouldn't exactly increase their support. America doesn't actually have to become anti-Israel for the rest of the world to deal with them, it just has to become ambivalent. Ok, do you think high-profile attacks on Israeli civilians hasten or slow that slide to ambivalence?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:43
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:So you think the only possible resistance is indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi-cleaving? I'm not suggesting palestinians should sit around doing nothing, I'm suggesting that random violence directed at the most sympathetic Israelis is counterproductive. It is counter productive, and wrong. You're perfectly correct. What actions should they take that will bear any productive fruit compared to the last 40 years?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:So you think the only possible resistance is indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi-cleaving? I'm not suggesting palestinians should sit around doing nothing, I'm suggesting that random violence directed at the most sympathetic Israelis is counterproductive. So Jefferson if a people try peaceful siolutions and all it gets them is ethnic cleansing by the other side should they keep up being peaceful?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
The idea that this tragedy was a tactical action aimed at liberating Palestine seems improbable, unless you think Palestine is a totalitarian state.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:So you think the only possible resistance is indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi-cleaving? I'm not suggesting palestinians should sit around doing nothing, I'm suggesting that random violence directed at the most sympathetic Israelis is counterproductive. Oh we're at the "why doesn't every single palestinian act in the morally rational manner and die" stage of the conversation, less than 10 pages in?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:46
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Well my tax dollars arn't paying for them. Nor do they like to make claims about being some outpost of western civilization that Israel does. Yes, they are, and yes, they do, as much as if not more than Israel. If you think America gives away anything for free, you're wrong; sometimes, America will discount exports and provide them at-cost. At worst, we'll intervene when non-intervention threatens to show us video of starving and dying children in the street, or when it will impact our broader interests. Usually, Americans on this board don't pay attention to those, yet pay disproportionate attention to Israel. Effectronica posted:The idea that this tragedy was a tactical action aimed at liberating Palestine seems improbable, unless you think Palestine is a totalitarian state. It was a random attack more about ~personal honor~ than ~jurisprudence~. I condemn all honor killings, for personal consideration has little place in national policy. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, they are, and yes, they do, as much as if not more than Israel. If you think America gives away anything for free, you're wrong; sometimes, America will discount exports and provide them at-cost. At worst, we'll intervene when non-intervention threatens to show us video of starving and dying children in the street, or when it will impact our broader interests. Usually, Americans on this board don't pay attention to those, yet pay disproportionate attention to Israel. "Other states do just as much as Israel, so Israel doesn't deserve the criticism  "Are you sure you are in the right thread?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, they are, and yes, they do, as much as if not more than Israel. If you think America gives away anything for free, you're wrong; sometimes, America will discount exports and provide them at-cost. At worst, we'll intervene when non-intervention threatens to show us video of starving and dying children in the street, or when it will impact our broader interests. Usually, Americans on this board don't pay attention to those, yet pay disproportionate attention to Israel. Israel isn't the worst regime that the USA has supported. It's just pretty bad. This is valuable to discuss in an Israel thread because
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 10:24 |
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, they are, and yes, they do, as much as if not more than Israel. If you think America gives away anything for free, you're wrong; sometimes, America will discount exports and provide them at-cost. At worst, we'll intervene when non-intervention threatens to show us video of starving and dying children in the street, or when it will impact our broader interests. Usually, Americans on this board don't pay attention to those, yet pay disproportionate attention to Israel. Do you really not think the people you're posting this retarded poo poo at don't think it would also be worthwhile to ensure all of our international relations are just. Seriously, stop posting.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2014 19:50
|
|