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The Insect Court posted:You have this bizarre paranoia about being accused of being an anti-semite, C.G. Lots of the more extreme anti-Zionists who show up in I/P threads do. I'm not sure why, I haven't called you an anti-semite and don't plan to. Still, I have to wonder where that fear and preoccupation of yours comes from. Why don't you name the clear and obvious anti-semites in this thread, with their anti-semitic statements hopefully so we can avoid them instead of just making sweeping claims about how it is clear.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:24
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CommieGIR posted:Well, setting up couches and watching the carnage is probably not appropriate considering the danger of being hit by Hamas rockets....  In the process of being genocided. Somewhat nonchalant no?I forgot where I am for a second. Goodbye.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:25
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How come some posters in this thread hate Palestinians so much? Haha, I'd say they want them to be locked up in camps but there are 2 million Palestinians locked up behind walls in Gaza for the last 60 odd years. Its really embarassing to see people who think they have strong opinions just regurgitating bog standard anti-arab racism.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:26
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Lady Morgaga posted:
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Nov 19, 2014 22:29
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Lady Morgaga posted:
http://electronicintifada.net/content/blockade-denying-gaza-youth-education-employment/9270 quote:Blockade denying Gaza youth education, employment
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Nov 19, 2014 22:30
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nopantsjack posted:Also stop feeding the trolls, everyone knows MIGF is either trolling or barely sapient, the last 10 pages have been 70% MIGF posts and replies, please stop. There is nothing to be gained by debating with people who haven't gone to the basic effort of educating themselves. You wouldn't have a debate about WW2 with a guy who thought the allies were the ones with the pointy hats. Yeah I put a helpful guide to posting in the OP because of this nonsense.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:30
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CommieGIR posted:"You are paranoid of being called an anti-semite, YOUR'RE AN ANTI-SEMITE AREN'T YOU?!" Please do try to calm down, C.G. I'm not accusing you(or any other particular individual) of being an anti-semite. I'm just saying that the hatred directed towards Israel and Jewish Israelis is so disproportionate and so personal that I want to understand the motivations behind it. Why do some posters insist that Israelis are unfeeling, bloodthirsty monsters? Why do some seem to react to the prospect of Palestinian terrorist groups killing Israeli civilians with something ranging from indifference to glee? Where does this devaluation of the life of Jewish Israelis comes from? Besides, "anti-semite or not" is a clumsy and inaccurate way to discuss the role bigotry plays in shaping discourse. It would be foolish to insist that a person is either a racist or a non-racist, that it's a simple binary adjective, wouldn't it? The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 22:36
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The Insect Court posted:Try to calm down C.G. I'm not accusing you(or any other particular individual) of being an anti-semite. I'm just saying that the hatred directed towards Israel and Jewish Israelis is so disproportionate and so personal that I want to understand the motivations behind it. Why do some posters insist that Israelis are unfeeling, bloodthirsty monsters? Why do some seem to react to the prospect of Palestinian terrorist groups killing Israeli civilians with something ranging from indifference to glee? Where does this devaluation of the life of Jewish Israelis comes from? Besides, "anti-semite or not" is a clumsy and inaccurate way to discuss the role bigotry plays in shaping discourse. It would be foolish to insist that a person is either a racist or a non-racist, that it's a simple binary adjective, wouldn't it? Still waiting on that citation proof that I think Israelis in general are monsters and that I'm a raving anti-jew bigot, Strawman. "I didn't call you a anti-semite, but I'm calling you an anti-semite  " IDF provided map of rocket launch sites from the last Gaza conflict. There's only one way to handle this...  Wait, are some of those launch sites in the ocean? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 22:38
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According to twitter-homie Omar, drones are already back in Gaza. https://twitter.com/Omar_Gaza Its interesting following the Gazans on social media over the past year, almost all the moderates who hated the whole war and Hamas have been radicalised by the latest lawn-mowing. Most that I follow are still not Hamas followers but now support their resistance since... who else do you go to? All the other neighbouring states are turning a blind eye. (Their governments at least, Israel's treatment of the palestinians is still hugely incendiary to the actual populations of the middle east.) Its still somewhat up for debate if these attacks are incompetence on Israel's side or an intentional policy of provoking Palestinian violence so its immediate and mostly unplanned, similar to how police will provoke a protest then disperse it with violence. I'd go for a combo of the two, since the IDF and civilian government seem to be somewhat at odds.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:42
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The Insect Court posted:Please do try to calm down, C.G. I'm not accusing you(or any other particular individual) of being an anti-semite. I'm just saying that the hatred directed towards Israel and Jewish Israelis is so disproportionate and so personal that I want to understand the motivations behind it. Why do some posters insist that Israelis are unfeeling, bloodthirsty monsters? Do you operate in a vacuum or something? A lot of people in this thread believe, rightfully, that Bibi and his sycophant cabinet represent the general will of the Israeli public. If you want to ignore right wing extremism in Israel, let's pretend that Rabin never got assassinated and, if he did, it was by an Arab. It's not a question on whether or not the Israeli people and their government should be held accountable, but how much they should be held accountable.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:44
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Job Truniht posted:Do you operate in a vacuum or something? A lot of people in this thread believe, rightfully, that Bibi and his sycophant cabinet represent the general will of the Israeli public. If you want to ignore right wing extremism in Israel, let's pretend that Rabin never got assassinated and, if he did, it was by an Arab. It's not a question on whether or not the Israeli people and their government should be held accountable, but how much they should be held accountable. There's no doubt that Israelis have been leaning more and more right since Bibi's return to power, so much so that Bibi is now almost perceived as center. I fear the very real possibility that Bennett or Liberman will replace him once his term is up. Personally I think we're long overdue for a rude awakening of sorts, be it from the international community or elsewhere.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:51
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Job Truniht posted:Do you operate in a vacuum or something? A lot of people in this thread believe, rightfully, that Bibi and his sycophant cabinet represent the general will of the Israeli public. If you want to ignore right wing extremism in Israel, let's pretend that Rabin never got assassinated and, if he did, it was by an Arab. It's not a question on whether or not the Israeli people and their government should be held accountable, but how much they should be held accountable. I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? And that they all bear collective guilt for the crimes committed against Palestinians, and so all Jewish Israelis should be held "accountable" and the only question is what degree of accountability should be meted out(boycott, international court, rockets, hatchets, etc.) Was the recent occurrence in that synagogue in Jerusalem an example of accountability(even if a somewhat overzealous one)?
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Nov 19, 2014 22:55
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The Insect Court posted:I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? And that they all bear collective guilt for the crimes committed against Palestinians, and so all Jewish Israelis should be held "accountable" and the only question is what degree of accountability should be meted out(boycott, international court, rockets, hatchets, etc.) Was the recent occurrence in that synagogue in Jerusalem an example of accountability(even if a somewhat overzealous one)? "Ring-wing Strawman found here"
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Nov 19, 2014 22:57
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Job Truniht posted:Do you operate in a vacuum or something? A lot of people in this thread believe, rightfully, that Bibi and his sycophant cabinet represent the general will of the Israeli public. If you want to ignore right wing extremism in Israel, let's pretend that Rabin never got assassinated and, if he did, it was by an Arab. It's not a question on whether or not the Israeli people and their government should be held accountable, but how much they should be held accountable. I generally disagree with the assertion that, say, US and UK governments actually represent the will of the public let alone the government of a military theocracy. Its alarmingly evident that there is growing extremist sentiment, especially among Israeli youth, but I'd debate that its an untouchable majority and flat out disagree with people who put the responsibility of state actions on the public whose will is subverted. Israelis presumably want the same as everyone, opportunities and comfort in life and for their friend's and family to not get blown up. Its the job of lovely nation states to convert public opinion into whatever supports their schemes. In that way Israel is totally right when it claims to be an outpost of Western Civilisation.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:58
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The Insect Court posted:I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? And that they all bear collective guilt for the crimes committed against Palestinians, and so all Jewish Israelis should be held "accountable" and the only question is what degree of accountability should be meted out(boycott, international court, rockets, hatchets, etc.) Was the recent occurrence in that synagogue in Jerusalem an example of accountability(even if a somewhat overzealous one)? I asked you a question, which you deliberately ignored. Were you too busy raping and dismembering a homeless man to bother?
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Nov 19, 2014 23:03
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The Insect Court posted:Please do try to calm down, C.G. I'm not accusing you(or any other particular individual) of being an anti-semite. I'm just saying that the hatred directed towards Israel and Jewish Israelis is so disproportionate and so personal that I want to understand the motivations behind it. Why do some posters insist that Israelis are unfeeling, bloodthirsty monsters? Why do some seem to react to the prospect of Palestinian terrorist groups killing Israeli civilians with something ranging from indifference to glee? Where does this devaluation of the life of Jewish Israelis comes from? Besides, "anti-semite or not" is a clumsy and inaccurate way to discuss the role bigotry plays in shaping discourse. It would be foolish to insist that a person is either a racist or a non-racist, that it's a simple binary adjective, wouldn't it? Well, Israel is a special case. I mean I'm not from US so I can't attest to it personally, but it must suck that every source pretty much tells you that it is a great country, that your tax dollars go to it, that there is no politician willing to speak against it. As a Finn, it's normal to me just to consider Israel as another poo poo country among others. Europe and the rest of the world ranks it up to Iran and NK in positivity. But even for us, US blocks resolutions in UN, forces us to accept it in the "Western democratic clubs" and other such bullshit. People actually defend it online, which is loving bizarre. But unlike Americans, at least we don't pay for that "priviledge". Is it really so strange that the spoiled little bitch of rear end in a top hat countries in the world gets more hate then the rear end in a top hat countries that suffer for being that? If you really haven't looked at the special treatment of Israel as a reason that it's so hated, well maybe that is what you should do next. Because I really don't think your average left-wing American wakes up one day hating Jews out of nowhere. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 23:21
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One thing no one can accuse TIC off is that his posts are of inconsistent quality.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:23
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MeLKoR posted:One thing no one can accuse TIC off is that his posts are of inconsistent quality. I just wish they were a little less like a broken record.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:24
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The Insect Court posted:I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? And that they all bear collective guilt for the crimes committed against Palestinians, and so all Jewish Israelis should be held "accountable" and the only question is what degree of accountability should be meted out(boycott, international court, rockets, hatchets, etc.) Was the recent occurrence in that synagogue in Jerusalem an example of accountability(even if a somewhat overzealous one)? I don't know what sort of projection you've got going on TIC but it's always impressive and grandiose. I don't feel like hatchets can be accountability man, that's terrible.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:24
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if you folks hate reading MIGF (or whoever's) posts (I know I hope he never shows his idiot face in the Canpoli thread again) then put him on ignore and don't quote him so the rest of us don't have to read whatever nonsense he's spewing.
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Nov 20, 2014 00:56
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If only there was some forum feature that did that for everyone at once.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:01
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The Insect Court posted:I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? And that they all bear collective guilt for the crimes committed against Palestinians, and so all Jewish Israelis should be held "accountable" and the only question is what degree of accountability should be meted out(boycott, international court, rockets, hatchets, etc.) Was the recent occurrence in that synagogue in Jerusalem an example of accountability(even if a somewhat overzealous one)? I think that's another way to describe institutional racism. Does Zionists hold the same views on race? Absolutely. I don't think Jewish Israelis accidentally elected a government that supports settlement expansion and strongman bullshit every time a drop of blood spills on the street while simultaneously pissing away any chance at a peace process. I know you're not that interested in holding Israel accountable for just about everything, but the US State Department nor the White House view it that way. Even if you ignore the concept that there might be repercussions for anything Israel ever does, Israel is well on its way to become a failed state economically, ideologically, and militarily. They hold the highest military spending as a % of GDP and income inequality of any OECD country.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:22
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The Insect Court posted:It's clear that there are some posters who have a very intense, very personal hatred of Jewish Israelis that goes beyond mere disagreement with the policies of the current Israeli government. Their regular characterization of many or most Jewish Israelis as bloodthirsty, unfeeling, inhuman, greedy, dishonest, etc., and the almost violent loathing expressed exceeds what you'll see in any other thread, opinions towards ISIS end up being sedate in comparison. I'm simply trying to understand where such intense and near murderous hatred comes from, especially when it's coming from people with no personal connection to the conflict. What motivates such hatred? I'm just asking question here, I don't have any answers and it just seems so bizarre to me Many, probably most, posters here are Westerners -- from the USA, Canada, the EU, ANZ, or similar. We're from Judeo-Christian cultures. In the Middle East thread, to someone arguing that Daeshites did not merit being treated as human beings, I said it wasn't about them, but about us. Israel is us. They are a Western country, they are deeply tied humanly and economically to other western countries, and they keep boasting about how they're the only country in the area upholding our values. And you know what? They are complete assholes. They're gleefully committing the worst of our colonial sins, which we stopped over two generations ago and now see with great shame, and they're arguing it's their God-given birthright to keep doing these awful things. That's why Israel is unbearable. Here we have an age of international Islamic terror, where Saudis and Pakistani salafists are abducting, ransoming, and torturing people, committing large-scale slaughters, oppressing women, destroying heritage sites, even striking on our home countries. We're better than them, right? Wrong! Here comes Israel on its mission to demonstrate that Arabs are really extremely justified in hating us. As for your "goes beyond mere disagreement with the policies of the current Israeli government" thing, well yeah, it's also disagreement with the policies of the previous Israeli government, and the one before, all the way back to when the Israeli government was still just the Irgun. The Insect Court posted:I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 01:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
It's not relevant that Hamas is regularly firing rockets, intentionally maximizes Palestinian civilian deaths, and has a long history of suicide bombings? quote:Let's start with the famous Norman Finkelstein talking point, if Israel has to build a wall to defend its citizens, why doesn't it build it on the internationally recognized 1967 armistice border, instead building it on Palestinian land? I think this is a fair starting point. Sure. The Palestinian Authority has already agreed in negotiations with Barak and Olmert that 1967 borders will have to be adjusted at multiple points. They weren't able to resolve conflicts over Jerusalem and refugees however. Do keep in mind that BDS, which Finkelstein speaks for in that video, isn't about settlements and the West Bank. BDS is for boycotting the entire state of Israel, a one state solution, and the immediate return of all descendants of 1948 refugees. emanresu tnuocca posted:I think that the last one was closed due to a certain poster drumming the "Israel is totally gonna nuke Iran, it's gonna be awesome!!!" drum. No, I think it's due to making blanket collective justifications like this. If you get to say that Likud speaks for all of Israel, then it's a lot easier to argue that Hamas speaks for all of Palestinians. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 03:33
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team overhead smash posted:
I think economically things would be a lot better for Palestinians and a lot fewer of them would have died in Cast Lead and Protective Edge. In terms of settlements though, he'd be the Obama to Bibi's Bush. A nicer face on the same policy, but also Fatah would have gotten a lot more deserved blame for punting on agreements when they were in reach like in 2001 and 2007. Job Truniht posted:I don't think Jewish Israelis accidentally elected a government that supports settlement expansion and strongman bullshit every time a drop of blood spills on the street while simultaneously pissing away any chance at a peace process. No, they just reflexively turn to right wing morons when they're terrified of being killed like, I don't know, everyone in every society ever? Like Hamas on the other side, or Americans after 9/11? Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 03:36
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Kim Jong Il posted:No, they just reflexively turn to right wing morons when they're terrified of being killed like, I don't know, everyone in every society ever? Like Hamas on the other side, or Americans after 9/11? I can't equivocate Hamas to the Likud government. Their influence only extends so far into the West Bank. And Israelis have made every effort to prevent a unified government body for Palestine from ever happening. The PA has the advantage of arguing that they're separate and distinct mouthpiece from Hamas every time they visit the UN. Bibi doesn't have that luxury. He never did.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:41
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Cat Mattress posted:Israel is us. They are a Western country, they are deeply tied humanly and economically to other western countries, and they keep boasting about how they're the only country in the area upholding our values. And you know what? They are complete assholes. They're gleefully committing the worst of our colonial sins, which we stopped over two generations ago and now see with great shame, and they're arguing it's their God-given birthright to keep doing these awful things. Interesting. So that sort fanatical loathing of Jewish Israelis is a sort of externalized self-hatred? I hadn't considered that possibility, to be honest, but it does help explain how irrational such fervor is. It also indicates an orientalizing and almost dehumanizing belief that non-Westerners(however defined) are an inscrutable "other", as if Arabs or Africans were some other species. But perhaps exploring that is best left to another thread. quote:As for your "goes beyond mere disagreement with the policies of the current Israeli government" thing, well yeah, it's also disagreement with the policies of the previous Israeli government, and the one before, all the way back to when the Israeli government was still just the Irgun. So in your "metaphor" here: Cat Mattress posted:So there's this guy who rapes a woman. The woman struggles, and hurts the guy. A policeman arrives on the scene. The guy cuts the woman's hands off, saying he has the rights to defend himself. The policeman agrees with his assessment and turns away. The guy keeps on raping the woman. What proportion of Jewish Israelis do you consider (morally akin to) rapists? All of them who don't share your opinion on Israel? Can you be a little more concrete as to what portions of the Israeli public may be killed by Palestinian terrorists without moral censure?
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Nov 20, 2014 05:21
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jesus christ can we just stop the rape analogies they are creepy and unproductive.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:22
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The Insect Court posted:What proportion of Jewish Israelis do you consider (morally akin to) rapists? All of them who don't share your opinion on Israel? Can you be a little more concrete as to what portions of the Israeli public may be killed by Palestinian terrorists without moral censure? The Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:23
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The Insect Court posted:Interesting. So that sort fanatical loathing of Jewish Israelis is a sort of externalized self-hatred? I hadn't considered that possibility, to be honest, but it does help explain how irrational such fervor is. "Right Wing Strawman found here" Please stop trying to equate criticism of Israel or the Israeli government to Jew hating. Thanks.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:24
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It's antisemitic of y'all not to have called me to this thread earlier. What have I missed?
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Nov 20, 2014 05:28
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It's been, what, four threads at this point and you dumb fuckers still haven't learned to ignore The Insect Court's attempts to de-rail it with accusations of anti-semitism?
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Nov 20, 2014 05:29
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Heavy neutrino posted:It's been, what, four threads at this point and you dumb fuckers still haven't learned to ignore The Insect Court's attempts to de-rail it with accusations of anti-semitism? It's not a derail, this is literally what the arguments on the other side are. We can have an echo chamber or we can have poo poo lies and wild accusations of anti-semitism. These are your choices in debating and discussing I/P.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:33
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SedanChair posted:It's not a derail, this is literally what the arguments on the other side are. We can have an echo chamber or we can have poo poo lies and wild accusations of anti-semitism. These are your choices in debating and discussing I/P. Just remember, going hog wild just ain't kosher.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:35
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Just remember, going hog wild just ain't kosher. Unless its going hog wild on the colonies
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Nov 20, 2014 05:36
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Holy poo poo, reading this guy's posts is like reading a scientologist harass someone. Replace "what are your crimes?" with "why do you loath jews?" That you do loath jews is a given, the only thing that we are discussing is why do you have this loathing of jews. Everybody can tell it's not about politics, it's something else... What could possibly make you loath jews and think they are subhuman scum? I'm not saying you are an anti-semite, I'm just asking questions because I truly don't understand why you hate all jews and want them dead. Please stop replying to this disingenuous rear end in a top hat, he's not arguing with you, he's just framing anything you say as coming from
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Nov 20, 2014 05:36
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CommieGIR posted:Unless its going hog wild on the colonies How DARE you? Clearly they're going Hebrew National Kosher Frank (tm) wild.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:39
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MeLKoR posted:Please stop replying to this disingenuous rear end in a top hat, he's not arguing with you, he's just framing anything you say as coming from It makes a ton of sense if you read his strawmen as "things I fear are true."
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Nov 20, 2014 05:40
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I wonder why TIC people feels the need to trivialize antisemitism by insinuating that every joe schmoe that comes along with a few "oh dears" about the colonial project of the State of Israel are antisemites. Can't they see that it is antisemitic in itself to reduce the term to an ineffectual soundbyte, a catty little come-back, a cute little "no you"? What happens when actual antisemitism takes place, but people are so sick and tired of being labeled antisemites for having legitimate concerns about Israel that no one cares when it is actually applicable? It's what neo-nazis and other legitimate antisemites want to happen, and do themselves. To make the concept of antisemitism into a joke so that it loses all meaning and effect to make people reflect over their actions. Then they can be free to engage in it as they please with fewer repercussions. Is that not a concern for TIC, or do they just want to score cheap points on an internet forum?
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Nov 20, 2014 06:18
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murphyslaw posted:I wonder why TIC people feels the need to trivialize antisemitism by insinuating that every joe schmoe that comes along with a few "oh dears" about the colonial project of the State of Israel are antisemites. If your rivals are caricatures, you do not need to examine yourself or your views. It's really that simple. Now, as for content: has anybody yet brought up how the head of the Shin Bet openly contradicted Netanyahu by saying that Abbas was actually helping Israeli security, rather than hindering it and inciting for violence against Jews and all that other rubbish?
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Nov 20, 2014 06:22
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