|
My Imaginary GF posted:Foreign intervention against your state development always occurs. You don't develop a strong nation by complaining about how unfair those with an interest in your failure are treating you, you do it by developing a stable political order with its own tax base that doesn't rely upon foreign interests playing by your rules. This is the last time I am going to tell you this: ISRAEL EXPLICITLY COLLECTS TAXES "ON BEHALF" OF THE PA. THE PA CANNOT COLLECT TAXES.
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 22:53 |
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:This is the last time I am going to tell you this: ISRAEL EXPLICITLY COLLECTS TAXES "ON BEHALF" OF THE PA. THE PA CANNOT COLLECT TAXES. Foreign intervention against your state development always occurs. Suck it up PA. 
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:11
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Unfortunately, this requires leadership of the like which Palestinians haven't ever seen. A good first step would have been for Hamas to condemn the synagogue attack in Jerusalem--now that would have demonstrated that the organization has leadership with ambition greater than pure genocidal intent. Ambition greater than pure genocidal intent? What in the absolute gently caress are you rambling about?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:12
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, that's why Abbas has been repeatedly proving his security forces as useful for Israeli safety (as the Head of Shin Bet recently admitted to the Knesset), and why Hamas has, when treated fairly, enforced ceasefires on other armed groups. They have proven themselves quite a bit more reliable than Israel, only to be shat upon. Abbas is the best leader Israel could have hoped for, and the fact that they lack the political will to reign in the militant settler faction and their own right wing in order to give him something to take back to his constituency is a loving travesty. I suspect his presidency is going to end up being considered a massive missed opportunity. Hamas is an ideologically driven radical group and only keeps peace when it is in their strategic interest. They make no secret of this. It's possible that their more extreme rhetoric is only for domestic consumption, but if that's the case, resolving the tension between realistic goals and the expectations they've built up is going to be a problem. That's the crux of the issue: neither side has any reason to trust the other to keep promises, neither side is willing to police its own radicals, the factions that profit from ongoing conflict are too deeply entrenched, and anyone willing to take a risk for peace will be outflanked from the right when hostilities flare again, if not outright shot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:16
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:That's the crux of the issue: neither side has any reason to trust the other to keep promises, the factions that profit from ongoing conflict are too deeply entrenched, and anyone willing to take a risk for peace will be outflanked from the right when hostilities flare again, if not outright shot.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:17
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:They are asking Israel to stop genociding Palestinians.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Foreign intervention against your state development always occurs. Suck it up PA. Also never have any of your armed groups attack the occupying force.  Dead Reckoning posted:That's the crux of the issue: neither side has any reason to trust the other to keep promises, neither side is willing to police its own radicals, the factions that profit from ongoing conflict are too deeply entrenched, and anyone willing to take a risk for peace will be outflanked from the right when hostilities flare again, if not outright shot. No, there is a trustworthy side, it's Palestinian and speaks Arabic.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:19
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:What exactly would that entail? Not striking against sites used to plan, coordinate, and launch attacks against the state of Israel, obviously
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:19
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:What exactly would that entail? I dunno, stopping poo poo like this would be a good start: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-attack-16-killed-at-un-school/2014/07/30/4a643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html My Imaginary GF posted:Not striking against sites used to plan, coordinate, and launch attacks against the state of Israel, obviously Is the UN a terrorist organization now?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:20
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:I dunno, stopping poo poo like this would be a good start: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-attack-16-killed-at-un-school/2014/07/30/4a643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html Don't want a school hit? Don't store or launch rockets from the school. It's that simple; unfortunately, Hamas lacks the leadership to protect Gaza's children. down with slavery posted:Is the UN a terrorist organization now? Has the UN ever committed or allowed to be committed acts of terrorism of which its had advanced notice? Yes. Its even stood aside when machette-in-the-street genocide has occured.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:21
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Don't want a school hit? Don't store or launch rockets from the school. It's that simple; unfortunately, Hamas lacks the leadership to protect Gaza's children. So you're agreeing then that the UN is a terrorist organization? Because that's who controlled the school that was "storing or launching rockets" according to you. My Imaginary GF posted:Has the UN ever committed or allowed to be committed acts of terrorism of which its had advanced notice? "Allowed to be committed", what a great way to weasel out of saying anything quote:Its even stood aside when machette-in-the-street genocide has occured. And what's your thoughts on that?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:22
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:So you're agreeing then that the UN is a terrorist organization? Because that's who controlled the school that was "storing or launching rockets" according to you. If the school grounds were used to store, manufacture, assemble, or launch rockets, then the schools weren't under UN authority. down with slavery posted:And what's your thoughts on that? The UN is decent at providing a venue to solve inter-state disputes. The UN has done little to impact state conflicts with sub-state organizations, and has neither the authority, the capability, the capacity, nor the will to do so.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:24
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:If the school grounds were used to store, manufacture, assemble, or launch rockets, then the schools weren't under UN authority. Go back and read the article edit. gently caress it, I'll do it for your dumb rear end quote:The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which operated the school-turned-shelter in the Jabalya refugee camp, said it had gathered evidence, analyzed bomb fragments and examined craters after the attack. Its initial assessment was that three Israeli artillery shells hit the school where 3,300 people had sought refuge.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:24
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Foreign intervention against your state development always occurs. You don't develop a strong nation by complaining about how unfair those with an interest in your failure are treating you, you do it by developing a stable political order with its own tax base that doesn't rely upon foreign interests playing by your rules. I can't stress this enough. MIGF has argued that Palestinians ought to "bend the knee" to the Israelis, and when pressed for details about who this strategy has worked out for in history, cited the Native Americans. You know, the peoples who are badly impoverished and confined to ghettos (called 'reservations') within the United States. MIGF's version of reasonableness for the weaker party is condemning your side to perpetual suffering.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:25
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Go back and read the article Its a conflict zone. If a school is used to launch attacks on a foreign state, expect that school to be targeted in retaliation. Don't use schools to affect attacks on foreign states if you value or respect those schools. Obviously, Hamas neither values nor respects the rights of Palestinian children to obtain an education.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:27
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Its a conflict zone. If a school is used to launch attacks on a foreign state, expect that school to be targeted in retaliation. Don't use schools to affect attacks on foreign states if you value or respect those schools. Obviously, Hamas neither values nor respects the rights of Palestinian children to obtain an education. You mean the UN? What does Hamas have to do with that school?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:27
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:You mean the UN? What does Hamas have to do with that school? Hamas has a history of using humanitarian zones to launch attacks on foreign states. If they were to use those same grounds to launch an attack on Egypt, I would respect no less a response from the Egyptians as has been seen from the Israelis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:29
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Hamas has a history of using humanitarian zones to launch attacks on foreign states. If they were to use those same grounds to launch an attack on Egypt, I would respect no less a response from the Egyptians as has been seen from the Israelis. Again, it was a UN school that was shelled. Nothing to do with Hamas.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:31
|
|
|
MIGF and TIC were making what may as well be identical c/p posts back in July and August. Why do you people keep responding? We're all the way back to terror schools and human shields. TERROR MIDGETS ON THE BEACH HAMAS MOLE WARRIORS DOMMAGE COLLATéRAL
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:33
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Again, it was a UN school that was shelled. Nothing to do with Hamas. It was no more a UN school than it was an Israeli school when Hamas used its grounds to attack a foreign power. vintagepurple posted:MIGF and TIC were making what may as well be identical c/p posts back in July and August. Why do you people keep responding? That does not validate Hamas' use of neutral ground and human shields for propaganda purposes when launching attacks against foreign powers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:33
|
|
vintagepurple posted:Why do you people keep responding? Because I'm bored and debunking really stupid arguments is good practice for when a worthwhile one comes along.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:34
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:It was no more a UN school than it was an Israeli school when Hamas used its grounds to attack a foreign power.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:35
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:It was no more a UN school than it was an Israeli school when Hamas used its grounds to attack a foreign power. So just to be clear, you are accusing the UN of harboring terrorists and their supplies in that school? ...based on the fact it got shelled by Israel? Well isn't that an adorable chain of logic.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:36
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Citation needed quote:I guess that's why the US kept dropping Nukes on Japan.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:38
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:So just to be clear, you are accusing the UN of harboring terrorists and their supplies in that school? ...based on the fact it got shelled by Israel? Well isn't that an adorable chain of logic. I've had people tell me, straight-up, that the IDF itself in its press releases is a more reliable, less biased source than the UN or Amnesty International.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:39
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Unfortunately, this requires leadership of the like which Palestinians haven't ever seen. A good first step would have been for Hamas to condemn the synagogue attack in Jerusalem--now that would have demonstrated that the organization has leadership with ambition greater than pure genocidal intent. If that's your standard for genocidal intent, when's the last time a significant state actor in Israel condemned blowing up Palestinian kids playing soccer on the beach, or any of the other thousands of Palestinian civilians killed in Israeli military actions?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:41
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:So just to be clear, you are accusing the UN of harboring terrorists and their supplies in that school? ...based on the fact it got shelled by Israel? Well isn't that an adorable chain of logic. UN admitted that rockets have been stored in its facilities, which were then turned over to Hamas. What do you do when your policy is "No site is off limits if used to launch an attack on a foreign nation"? You respond and eliminate the target. The more attacks which occur against Jewish religious targets, the closer this conflict becomes to a religious war. That must end now and be condemned by all organizations and institutions, for if it came to pass, you would not be happy with the one-state solution which would result. JeffersonClay posted:If that's your standard for genocidal intent, when's the last time a significant state actor in Israel condemned blowing up Palestinian kids playing soccer on the beach, or any of the other thousands of Palestinian civilians killed in Israeli military actions? Rabin was a pretty ok dude.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:42
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:There's also the problem that the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was supposed to have the same pacific effect that ending the blockade is supposed to, and that hasn't really worked out. Uhh bombing the poo poo out of an area and then stopping bombing it isn't really helping much when you continue to genocide the Palestinian people. Dead Reckoning posted:Avoiding a costly (in terms of deaths) ground invasion was one of the major justifications for continuing the fire and atomic bombings of Japan until unconditional surrender, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Dead Reckoning posted:You're asking one side to back off from a position of absolute dominance and just accept the fact that it will most likely result in the deaths of more of their citizens. No matter how "moral" it may be, it isn't something that any state would do. Why did the US back off from their position of absolute dominance? We could have just kept nuking them. gently caress the ground invasion, we're a state with absolute dominance and we NEVER back down, no matter what the moral cost. I mean just think, if we stop now those pesky japs are going to rebuild their plans and nuke us back. Better keep them down just to make sure.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:42
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:UN admitted that rockets have been stored in its facilities, which were then turned over to Hamas. What do you do when your policy is "No site is off limits if used to launch an attack on a foreign nation"? You respond and eliminate the target. lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:43
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:UN admitted that rockets have been stored in its facilities, which were then turned over to Hamas. [citation needed] quote:you would not be happy with the one-state solution which would result. but you would be you sociopathic gently caress
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:44
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:[citation needed] I would not be happy, however, it is a result I could live with, and one which would not be as detrimental to American interests were the other result to occur. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/01/war-in-gaza-the-controversial-un-agency-that-found-rockets-in-its-schools/
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:45
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:I would not be happy, however, it is a result I could live with, and one which would not be as detrimental to American interests were the other result to occur. quote:But Israel sees it differently. Its trust in UNRWA has sunk so low that it has accused it of handing one cache of discovered rockets over to Hamas. “The rockets were passed on to the government authorities in Gaza, which is Hamas,” one senior official told the Times of Israel. “In other words, UNRWA handed to Hamas rockets that could well be shot at Israel.” Senior Israeli officials... quite trustworthy lol My Imaginary GF posted:I would not be happy, however, it is a result I could live with
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:47
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:No, there is a trustworthy side, it's Palestinian and speaks Arabic. If a similar attack occurred after a peace treaty had been signed, do you think it would be reasonable to expect Israel to accept an apology from the Palestinian leadership that they can't stop all fanatics as sufficient? If so, how many mass casualty attacks would you expect Israel to accept? These aren't random hypotheticals, every period of truce between Israel and the Palestinians has involved these flashpoints. What can be done about it?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 05:59
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:Within the last week, two Palestinians attacked a synagogue with the intent of causing as many civilian casualties as possible before they were killed by police. Some Palestinians celebrated in the streets. That level of animosity will not go away overnight, or even within a decade. Do you think any of the Palestinian leadership factions have the will, much less the capability, to stop attacks like this? What does it say about Israeli consideration of the right of return? Yes. Because before Israel went on an arrest and terrorization spree in the West Bank and a senseless bombing campaign in Gaza, and heck, until just say a month ago, the PA under Abbas was holding the peace. Again, even the head of Shin Bet, Israel's secret police, admitted this. quote:If a similar attack occurred after a peace treaty had been signed, do you think it would be reasonable to expect Israel to accept an apology from the Palestinian leadership that they can't stop all fanatics as sufficient? If so, how many mass casualty attacks would you expect Israel to accept? These aren't random hypotheticals, every period of truce between Israel and the Palestinians has involved these flashpoints. What can be done about it? Yeah, just like when something similar occurred with Jordan. That is how international relations work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:02
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Why did the US back off from their position of absolute dominance? We could have just kept nuking them. gently caress the ground invasion, we're a state with absolute dominance and we NEVER back down, no matter what the moral cost.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:04
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:Within the last week, two Palestinians attacked a synagogue with the intent of causing as many civilian casualties as possible before they were killed by police. Some Palestinians celebrated in the streets. That level of animosity will not go away overnight, or even within a decade. Do you think any of the Palestinian leadership factions have the will, much less the capability, to stop attacks like this? What does it say about Israeli consideration of the right of return? Palestine's leadership and citizenry don't owe any apologies for the acts of a couple murderers, who are now dead.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:05
|
|
|
Just loving drop the "political realities" act already. It's not convincing anyone, it's insulting to our intelligence, and doesn't even hide the horrific person you are. There is no loving excuse for apartheid, genocide, war crimes, or anything else Israel has been doing. Palestineans, like all other human beings, deserve to be safe, healthy, fed, and protected from harm by others. That you think otherwise, or even consider this something to be ignored in the name of your false realism, exposes you as what you are. Callous, bigoted, cruel people like you are why this unacceptable situation even exists, and no amount of lies or deception will ever hide the rot at the core of your heart.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:05
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:We deposed their government, instituted military occupation, put their leaders on trial, literally re-wrote their constitution, and dictated their military policy arguably until the present day. That's pretty much as good as it gets in terms of dominance. Absolutely not. Like you said, a dominant power NEVER gives it up(your words, not mine). So why would we? We could have just colonized the entire country. Maybe bulldoze a few homes and start sending settlers. I mean, we never know if those pesky japs are going to fight back. Better to be sure, right?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:05
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Absolutely not. Like you said, a dominant power NEVER gives it up. So why would we? We could have just colonized the entire country. Maybe bulldoze a few homes and start sending settlers. I mean, we never know if those pesky japs are going to fight back. Better to be sure, right? Hell, the Abe government is repeatedly opening old wounds, going to the Yasukuni Shrine, and re-interpreting their constitution to mean that they can use military force to defend allies. And other than China, the regional governments are welcoming it as part of a growing alliance against Chinese expansionism. Best if the US invaded everybody just to be sure.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 22:53 |
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, just like when something similar occurred with Jordan. That is how international relations work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 06:07
|
|