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eSports Chaebol posted:This analogy would work if the response to shootings were not gun control, but the persecution of innocent gun owners as a reprisal for gun crimes. The "pet cause" here is human rights. Don't you realize gun nuts see gun control of any sort as a persecution of innocent gun owners? It's why their first reaction on hearing of mass shootings is often expressed as fear and anger about gun control legislation they think will follow. Just like a different breed of extremists is incapable of seeing the murders in Jerusalem other than through the lens of their belief in the utter depravity of the Israeli people. As are their counterparts, with Gaza and Palestinians swapped in for Jerusalem and Israelis. Cat Mattress posted:You used the wrong preposition here, fixed it for you. Good point, C.M., unusually perceptive and self-aware of you. A misogynistic mass murderer like Rodger is akin to the the anti-semitic murderers who carried out the synagogue attack. Both were driven into a murderous rage by their imagined grievances and bigoted hatred. I'm sure you could find people willing to take the same stance of sotto voce condemnation followed by full-throated proviso on Rodgers as this thread sometimes does on Palestinian terrorism. SedanChair posted:Nobody cares about what you find troubling, moral cripple. Is this more projection, S.C.? I'm certainly not taking "potshots" at Muslims. Quite to the contrary, I spoke up because I discerned some troubling beliefs in your posts in regards to people of faith including Muslims. You insinuate that anyone who believes in the primacy of their religious tradition is a "supremacist" and a nutjob. Remarkably similar to the way right-wing Islamophobes view Muslims, in that it rhetorically eliminates moderate believers by lumping in all devout Muslims with the fanatical fringe.
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Nov 22, 2014 22:11
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The Insect Court posted:imagined grievances The Insect Court posted:imagined grievances The Insect Court posted:imagined grievances The Insect Court posted:imagined grievances The Insect Court posted:imagined grievances Your uh analogy has a flaw, I think.
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Nov 22, 2014 22:15
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syscall girl posted:Your uh analogy has a flaw, I think. Do you not know that the difference between the worth of a life of a gentile and that of a Jew is as much as the difference between that of a base animal and that of a gentile?
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Nov 22, 2014 22:22
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Can we institute a rule wherein one decent article pertinent to the CURRENT crisis/spate of violence must be posted per page? I'm sure that the rule will be enforced just as well as this subforums rules.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:07
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Wait a minute, did MIGF shift the discussion again to put the onus on the Palestinians and pretend like their resistance to Israeli occupation and aggression is the cause for said occupation and aggression? Attacking West Jerusalem isn't resistance to occupation. I don't think it's controversial to say that their tactics have made their situation appreciably worse. Pick any metric you want, and they were much better off before the last intifada. Is there any chance at all that a third intifada doesn't lead to a worse outcome for Palestinian quality of life? Remember, the first intifada had James Baker running American foreign policy which led to Madrid, while the next American president will either be Hilary "I Support Protective Edge" Clinton or a Republican. Absurd Alhazred posted:So does Abbas. So has Hamas. And this is recent, you don't seem to recall how things were when Arafat was still alive, cracking down on Hamas, and getting his cops killed for the trouble. Arafat had Dahlan pulling fingernails from Hamas members, while at the same time launching Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in 2000.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:08
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syscall girl posted:Your uh analogy has a flaw, I think. What sort of grievance did the two killers have against the men in that synagogue? Do you think they had real, legitimate, acceptable reasons to do what they did? Because I do not, even if you would disagree.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:10
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The Insect Court posted:I spoke up because I discerned some troubling beliefs in your posts in regards to people of faith including Muslims. You insinuate that anyone who believes in the primacy of their religious tradition is a "supremacist" and a nutjob. Remarkably similar to the way right-wing Islamophobes view Muslims, in that it rhetorically eliminates moderate believers by lumping in all devout Muslims with the fanatical fringe. What are you, The Insect Court? Are you a moderate? What are you?
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Nov 23, 2014 01:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:Attacking West Jerusalem isn't resistance to occupation. I don't think it's controversial to say that their tactics have made their situation appreciably worse. Pick any metric you want, and they were much better off before the last intifada. Is there any chance at all that a third intifada doesn't lead to a worse outcome for Palestinian quality of life? Remember, the first intifada had James Baker running American foreign policy which led to Madrid, while the next American president will either be Hilary "I Support Protective Edge" Clinton or a Republican. Oh please. Your metric assumes that there was EVER going to be a BETTER ending for the Palestinians. I asked this of Insect Court and MIGF, and neither of them bothered to respond: Please explain the actions of the Israeli's as far as settlement building and mass punishment as a positive net gain for the Palestinians. You guys keep coming back to some weird and twisted "Oh, well, the Palestinian's brought it onto themselves" when that has never been true, and despite even holding up promises they have made before to the Israeli's, the Israeli's have not kept their end of the bargain.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:14
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MIGF's "tough, realistic" foreign policy includes subsidizing and supporting Israel heavily because it's a "friend". Not an ally or a client, but a "friend". When he suggested that Israel was being subsidized to avoid it starting wars throughout the ME, I suggested an invasion of Israel as a logical solution to blackmail, but MIGF went on about friendship and how tough Israelis are. I also suggested other solutions, like demanding half of the seats of the Knesset if they want to continue to receive US largesse. I conclude that if he is actually influencing US foreign policy, this country is absolute poo poo and a purge sounds like the best way forward. When you play, you play to win the game, not to give someone else the win. BTW, MIGF, would it not be more logically consistent to provide Hamas and the PA with air defense systems to protect UNRWA schools from Israeli bombers, or better yet, to use US airpower to enforce a no-fly zone over Israel to reduce civilian casualties? Panzeh fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 01:26
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Panzeh posted:MIGF's "tough, realistic" foreign policy includes subsidizing and supporting Israel heavily because it's a "friend". Not an ally or a client, but a "friend". When he suggested that Israel was being subsidized to avoid it starting wars throughout the ME, I suggested an invasion of Israel as a logical solution to blackmail, but MIGF went on about friendship and how tough Israelis are. I also suggested other solutions, like demanding half of the seats of the Knesset if they want to continue to receive US largesse. Nuke Iran!
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Nov 23, 2014 01:30
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Panzeh posted:MIGF's "tough, realistic" foreign policy includes subsidizing and supporting Israel heavily because it's a "friend". Not an ally or a client, but a "friend". When he suggested that Israel was being subsidized to avoid it starting wars throughout the ME, I suggested an invasion of Israel as a logical solution to blackmail, but MIGF went on about friendship and how tough Israelis are. I also suggested other solutions, like demanding half of the seats of the Knesset if they want to continue to receive US largesse.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:33
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Kim Jong Il posted:Attacking West Jerusalem isn't resistance to occupation. I don't think it's controversial to say that their tactics have made their situation appreciably worse. Pick any metric you want, and they were much better off before the last intifada. Is there any chance at all that a third intifada doesn't lead to a worse outcome for Palestinian quality of life? Remember, the first intifada had James Baker running American foreign policy which led to Madrid, while the next American president will either be Hilary "I Support Protective Edge" Clinton or a Republican. Attacking the citizens of an occupying power might not be 'nice' but it is a form of resistance, don't really see how you can claim it isn't. You could claim it ain't legit or criticize its efficacy, as you did, but to flat out state that it doesn't count? I mean, what is it otherwise? A spontaneous anti-Semitic attack? Terrorism is a form of armed resistance, and thus, the putting the onus on the occupiers thing which I was going for. As for your views in regards to the strategic value of these attacks and another intifada in general, some people would tell you that freedom and independence are more important than improved material conditions under oppression, that in the long term they believe that things will be better if they keep fighting. Personally I'm too decadent to buy into that stuff, perhaps you are too, but from observing the situation and reading about similar historical occurrences it would seem like a rather common sentiment, people under oppression would often prefer not to live under oppression and many times resort to violence, history also tells us that people who fight for their freedom usually win it eventually.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:40
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Panzeh posted:MIGF's "tough, realistic" foreign policy includes subsidizing and supporting Israel heavily because it's a "friend". Not an ally or a client, but a "friend". When he suggested that Israel was being subsidized to avoid it starting wars throughout the ME, I suggested an invasion of Israel as a logical solution to blackmail, but MIGF went on about friendship and how tough Israelis are. I also suggested other solutions, like demanding half of the seats of the Knesset if they want to continue to receive US largesse. Ok, you run on that policy in America and see how well it goes. You call for purge all you want; the rest of us will work within the system to affect change through policy implementation. Your mistake is thinking the world is perfectly logical and rational and actors will work to optimize the return for their systems, rather than work within their systems to optimize their power. Go ahead, run on your positions in America. See how far it takes you; see just how many folks agree with you. Hint: its even less than you think, you crazed nihilist. Israel works under the rules of America's political order; Palestinians do not. If they want American subsidies, they are free to convince Americans that they deserve them. Americans view Israel as a friendly nation which has earned American support. Not many Americans view Palestine as a nation, much less want subsidies to go to Palestinians. emanresu tnuocca posted:Attacking the citizens of an occupying power might not be 'nice' but it is a form of resistance, don't really see how you can claim it isn't. You could claim it ain't legit or criticize its efficacy, as you did, but to flat out state that it doesn't count? I mean, what is it otherwise? A spontaneous anti-Semitic attack? Terrorism is a form of armed resistance, and thus, the putting the onus on the occupiers thing which I was going for. Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination?
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Nov 23, 2014 05:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination?  See, you think you are saying intelligent and well reasoned things....but you are not.
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Nov 23, 2014 05:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination? Who collects the taxes in the West Bank? Who controls who gets to get in and out of the West Bank and Gaza? Who gets to raid whose homes at all hours without repercussions? Motherfucking Israel does. Not in the imagination, unless you think we are all the dream of the Lord, in which case, His imagination, which is more enforceable than yours, Sela.
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Nov 23, 2014 05:53
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My Imaginary GF posted:Ok, you run on that policy in America and see how well it goes. You call for purge all you want; the rest of us will work within the system to affect change through policy implementation. Your mistake is thinking the world is perfectly logical and rational and actors will work to optimize the return for their systems, rather than work within their systems to optimize their power. Crazed nihilist. No, I am here to look out for America's interests first. It would not be terribly difficult to decrease public support for Israel. It is not actually as high among the voting public as it is in DC circles where AIPAC and J-Street are basically the only voices heard. The right presentation can make any foreign policy position palatable. Just paint it as America looking out for #1, cutting cruft from the budget, not that difficult to do. Sometimes Americans don't know what they really want, but I am the hero America needs. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 05:56
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How about the lapdog country stop acting like it's in charge? Because it keeps attacking the neighbors, I'm pretty sure the local shelter has a kill policy.
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Nov 23, 2014 06:01
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Do you not know that the difference between the worth of a life of a gentile and that of a Jew is as much as the difference between that of a base animal and that of a gentile? Don't know if anyone's told them but I'm pretty sure this is wrong...
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Nov 23, 2014 06:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:Go ahead, run on your positions in America. See how far it takes you; see just how many folks agree with you. Hint: its even less than you think, you crazed nihilist. Israel works under the rules of America's political order; Palestinians do not. If they want American subsidies, they are free to convince Americans that they deserve them. Americans view Israel as a friendly nation which has earned American support. Not many Americans view Palestine as a nation, much less want subsidies to go to Palestinians. Even in the benighted hellscape of the American electorate, support for Palestine runs at about 20 percent. So yeah, about 60+ million Americans think of Palestinians as human beings whose rights are being trampled by a rogue state. And less than half of us dimwitted burger monkeys think Israel's actions in Gaza are justified. Israel's "friends" in the US are drying up but their political will will continue to be enforced against all common sense by their corrupt political machinery.
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Nov 23, 2014 06:11
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The Insect Court posted:What sort of grievance did the two killers have against the men in that synagogue? Do you think they had real, legitimate, acceptable reasons to do what they did? Because I do not, even if you would disagree. are you a white boy in america?
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Nov 23, 2014 10:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination? International humanitarian law for what is an occupying power and whether it is legitimate form of attack, Israel as long as it works within the boundaries of international military law for the latter. In case you're wondering there is an occupation all throughout the oPT because it fits the definition of an occupation laid down in international law and precedent and to argue that it's not is to also try and whitewash the crimes of Nazis (who set that precedent for the type of occupation in Gaza). However the attack is not legitimate because it targeted solely civilians and so would be either criminal if we view the attackers as civilians or a war crime if we view them as combatants. Israel do seem to have assumed it is an attack against themselves based on the occupation as they're treating it as a terrorist matter, which is an attack where you cause terror to try and change the policy of a group of country rather than a simple criminal matter. I can't think of anything Israel would assume the terrorists were trying to change other than the occupation. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 10:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination? gently caress off.
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Nov 23, 2014 11:53
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http://mekomit.co.il/%D7%9C%D7%90-%...A0%D7%99%D7%9D/ I assume an English translation will appear soon enough on 972 but this is interesting and damning so I'll post my own summary quote:A reserve IDF combat medic was surprised when at a refresher course he was instructed to only resuscitate Jews. Further they were told to shoot to kill any assailant, even if he no longer poses a threat. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 13:40
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emanresu tnuocca posted:http://mekomit.co.il/%D7%9C%D7%90-%...A0%D7%99%D7%9D/ Something else I thought was worth adding from the rules of engagement bit: quote:did anyone object or protest this directive?
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Nov 23, 2014 13:50
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emanresu tnuocca posted:http://mekomit.co.il/%D7%9C%D7%90-%...A0%D7%99%D7%9D/ "We cannot allow a repeat of what happened in Hebron - a Jew lying injured, while other Jews think he is an Arab and therefore, quite rightly, keep running and shooting so as to strike down more Arabs, rather than stop beside him to give him the medical aid necessary to save his life. We cannot allow this, for how can a Jew walk down the street while fearing in his heart of hearts that should he fall down - other Jews might mistake him for an Arab? Who would dare sit behind a stirring wheel? Who would allow himself to take the tiniest of risks, if there is even the slightest chance that should he be injured - he'll be considered an Arab? So far we have considered the crochet yarmulke to be a sure sign of a Jewish ID, until the murder in Hebron took place, and we found out that when a man is wounded and falls down, the yarmulke may slip off his scalp, suddenly turning him into just a regular person - that is; a potential Arab. So obviously the Yarmulke cannot be trusted. As it turns out, a four-winged tallit, even combined with a tzizit, may be easily confused for a disarrayed keffiyeh - and so doubt strikes once more at an honest man's heart: An Arab? A Jew? Save? Or leave dying? It appears that the most obvious lesson from the tragic affair in Hebron is that it's time to stop relying on improvised and outdated distinguishing properties such as yarmulkes or kaffiyah's. We are living in the 20th century, and it's high time to make sure everyone wears appropriate and easily distinguishable forms of ID. [You can see where this is going, I'm sure, so let's skip a few paragraphs belaboring the punchline) With those badges in place, there is no possibility of such an awful occasion repeating itself, and an injured Jew being mistaken for an Arab. We can walk down our streets safely and in high spirits, wearing our national identity on our sleeves. After all, what else was the state of Israel established for?" Joshua Sobol, "Hotem", 1983(!)
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Nov 23, 2014 14:50
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Xander77 posted:With those badges in place, there is no possibility of such an awful occasion repeating itself, and an injured Jew being mistaken for an Arab. We can walk down our streets safely and in high spirits, wearing our national identity on our sleeves. After all, what else was the state of Israel established for?" Israel is the poster boy for the 'the writing on the wall' idiom, has there ever been a doomsday prophecy by an Israeli leftist that didn't come to fruition in a matter of decades? Anyway, I suppose you've already seen this but I guess some posters didn't, so there were some developments today in regards to the murders in Bitunia, the prosecution advertised some new facts today, I guess I'l start by saying that it has no been confirmed that the soldier will not be charged with two counts of murder but rather with one count of manslaughter, which, as the facts advertised today demonstrate is preposterous. So, it has been determined that the soldier had inserted at least four live rounds into a magazine filled with blank rounds, those magazines are painted red by the IDF and are meant to be used with a special attachment to the barrel of the rifle where a projectile consisting of three rubber-encased metal balls is propelled by the gasses released by the blanks, so, in order to actually fire the live rounds not only did he need to have switched the bullets as he did, he also had to have made sure that the front attachment was unloaded, so there's absolutely no chance the shooting was accidental. Moreover, the photos from that day clearly show that the two people who shot were at least 80 meters away from him, did not approach his position and did not do anything particularly threatening in general. So we have a guy who woke up one day and decided he wants to murder some Palestinians, later puts a picture of him at the scene of the crime with the title "some of the best days of my life", and yet somehow it's accidental manslaughter. And of course this guy is getting praised by the masses on the social networks.
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Nov 23, 2014 21:23
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I am sure you will all be relieved that the age-old tension between Jewish and Democratic is set to be resolved. The short version is that Jewish won: if the law overwhelmingly approved by the Cabinet is also approved by the Knesset as a whole, Jewish jurisprudence will be officially cemented as a basis of Israeli law, and Arabic will be officially delisted as the country's second language. This will be a Basic Law, so Supreme Court decisions in future will have to consider it at the same level as the Human Dignity and Freedom Law, etc. (Basic Laws are the creation of a Constitution piecemeal, one law at a time)
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Nov 23, 2014 21:57
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My Imaginary GF posted:Ok, you run on that policy in America and see how well it goes. You call for purge all you want; the rest of us will work within the system to affect change through policy implementation. Your mistake is thinking the world is perfectly logical and rational and actors will work to optimize the return for their systems, rather than work within their systems to optimize their power. This might confuse you, but it is possible for the status quo to change. It is unlikely, but it is unlikely because of people like yourself who confuse "this is the way things are" with "this is the way things should be." You are using "People are doing X" as an argument against "People should do Y instead." This makes no logical sense. People in this thread are not saying "I think the US/Israel are going to do X, Y, and Z." They're saying "The US/Israel should do X, Y, and Z." I remember thinking people were full of poo poo when they talked about others confusing "is" and "ought," but holy poo poo there actually are people (and a whole lot of them!) who honestly do not understand the difference. The status quo is difficult to change largely because so many people automatically assume that it must be the only possible result. It's one thing to believe the status quo will probably persist (and I would agree that it probably will), but it's another to actively start supporting it because you're too dumb to understand that "this will probably happen" is not the same thing as "this should happen." If everyone in the world was like My Imaginary GF, the US would still use slavery because everyone would think "it's unrealistic to try to end slavery because it supports and is supported by the entrenched institutions."
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Nov 23, 2014 22:03
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I am sure you will all be relieved that the age-old tension between Jewish and Democratic [url=]is set to be resolved[/url]. Do a comparison between the current, "softer" version and the previous one, if you want to actually say something.
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Nov 23, 2014 22:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I am sure you will all be relieved that the age-old tension between Jewish and Democratic is set to be resolved. Ah, more and more, we're seeing the Jewish State of Israel and the Levant.
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Nov 23, 2014 22:44
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Xander77 posted:Eh. Political Science 101 (right after "the difference between 'ought' and 'is'", as noted by Yltaya): proposed legislation means anything between little and nothing. If and when the law actually is actually enacted (without being struck down by the How about you do it, smart guy? To be fair, I guess this could actually break apart to coalition rather than turn into law. That being said, the Supreme Court is going to have a hard time overturning a new Basic Law if it does pass (say with opposition support from Shas/Yahadut Hatora). Also, if I'm not mistaken, comparison with the previous version would actually show that Netanyahu isn't the hugest rear end in a top hat in his coalition. ETA: Comic relief. This is the logo of a Kosher bakery priding itself on having both ordinary, parve, and sugar-free products:  "Genesis - from Mom's own hands" Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 22:48
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No ring. 
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Nov 23, 2014 23:12
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emanresu tnuocca posted:And of course this guy is getting praised by the masses on the social networks. You're Israeli yourself, right? Does it ever get to the point where you consider leaving, because you're obviously very unhappy with the status quo?
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Nov 24, 2014 01:45
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team overhead smash posted:You're Israeli yourself, right? Everyday basically. I definitely wouldn't want my kid to go through the Israeli education system so the clock is ticking.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:04
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"Non-Jews do not need to be resuscitated. Unarmed non-Jews can be shot on sight." - Master of Purity of Arms, the IDF http://972mag.com/idf-trainer-no-need-to-resuscitate-palestinians/99132/ Combine that with the recent executions of unarmed Palestinians, the relaxation on controls of firearms as well as incitement to use them and you've got a fireball in the making.
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Nov 24, 2014 06:32
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Realpolitik is just a classy way of saying "might makes right." Thrasymachus would be proud. How did this ever become a word that meant the opposite of what it originally meant? Realpolitik was the pursuit of unrealistic goals and insane foreign policy leaps that led to Bismarck getting the axe.
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Nov 24, 2014 06:42
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Job Truniht posted:How did this ever become a word that meant the opposite of what it originally meant? Realpolitik was the pursuit of unrealistic goals and insane foreign policy leaps that led to Bismarck getting the axe. That's the opposite of what happened Bismark got the axe cause he wouldn't follow the Kaiser on his Weltpolitik which was about grabbing Germany's place in the Sun. Realpolitik has always been pragmatism in politics, post Bismark it really has become might makes right in a classy setting, much the same that most, what people call pragmatic thought now is that.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:21
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Hong XiuQuan posted:"Non-Jews do not need to be resuscitated. Unarmed non-Jews can be shot on sight." - Master of Purity of Arms, the IDF http://972mag.com/idf-trainer-no-need-to-resuscitate-palestinians/99132/ Yeah, nothing improves the stability of a regime than uninhibited violence against its subjects, and nothing improves the effectiveness of medical support than downright racism and discrimination against the injured. We need a :hist99: or :mil99: or something.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:22
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Xander77 posted:Eh. Political Science 101 (right after "the difference between 'ought' and 'is'", as noted by Yltaya): proposed legislation means anything between little and nothing. If and when the law actually is actually enacted (without being struck down by the https://www.facebook.com/TnyhtHmspryymWbwNdbrlZh/photos/a.478764842145532.107849.454801224541894/844720502216629/ quote:So leftists in my feed are like "I have no idea what differs the new nationality law from the existing legislation but if this is promoted by the right they must be up to something, so we oppose it"
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Nov 24, 2014 08:58
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http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/nov/23/israeli-cabinet-moves-define-israel-jewish/ Guys, apparently Israel is a Jewish state. Who knew?
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Nov 24, 2014 17:36
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