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SedanChair posted:Children shoot people though. We're not talking about an unarmed person, or Amadou Diallo pulling out something that doesn't look like a gun at all. Toy guns look like guns, and twelve year olds shoot people sometimes. If it's OK for police to ever, ever use lethal force (which I am willing to debate) it was OK in this instance. gently caress. loving gently caress. loving hosed fucks. gently caress. What the gently caress is wrong with America where people are defending shooting a 12 year old for any reason instead of looking into why a 12 year old was shot and fixing the problem so it doesn't happen in the future? With all the terrible poo poo that goes on, with people being gunned down in the street in broad daylight, with people being gunned down in their homes from police having the wrong address, from Freep existing, this is what broke me. A 12 year old with a toy gun being shot by police, and people saying the kid had it coming. Tell me Sedanchair, was it a good shot? gently caress it. I can only hope he pulls through.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:48
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SedanChair posted:If you saw a kid pull a gun out of his waistband what would you think? In a split second. We're not dealing with African child soldiers here. Oh, who am I kidding? You're SedanChair, after all.  KomradeX posted:
Please tell me you did something about this. Oh, who am I kidding (again)?
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Nov 23, 2014 08:49
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Ditocoaf posted:If we're going to take a gamble, where the stakes are "if the gun is real and the cop acts with restraint, the cop might die. if the gun is fake and the cop acts with violence, the child might die." If we're going to take that gamble. The person whose life should be on the line is the person who voluntarily entered a career that places you in harm's way to be a protector for civilians. Not the child. Cops have no duty or obligation to protect anyone. Their duty is to enforce the law, there maybe some collateral costs in carrying out that duty but that is the price that must be paid for an ordered society. 
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Nov 23, 2014 08:52
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Randalor posted:gently caress. loving gently caress. loving hosed fucks. gently caress. What the gently caress is wrong with America where people are defending shooting a 12 year old for any reason instead of looking into why a 12 year old was shot and fixing the problem so it doesn't happen in the future? With all the terrible poo poo that goes on, with people being gunned down in the street in broad daylight, with people being gunned down in their homes from police having the wrong address, from Freep existing, this is what broke me. A 12 year old with a toy gun being shot by police, and people saying the kid had it coming. Tell me Sedanchair, was it a good shot? gently caress it. I can only hope he pulls through. It does appear to have been an appropriate use of lethal force. I work with 12 year old kids who have had interactions with the police all the time. Lots of times I end up hating the police for their treatment of the kids. But if one of those kids did this and got shot I would be sad and angry but I wouldn't have any good target for my anger. I think that's the case for many posters in the thread right now.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:52
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Whatever that's a replica of (M1911?), the fake barrel easily makes it look like a 45. That is a very serious looking "toy". Zeno-25 fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:59
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I disagree and think this a failure on the part of the cops to hold back. The cops are the authority in these situations. The decision to fire is/was in their hands and they are ultimately responsible for this kid's harm/life. Yes, it is obviously a very narrow edge case and yes the gun he had looks real but they still needed hold back because its still 12 year old brat and the "Its a fake gun" tip should have at least had enough weight of doubt to make them hesitate and hold back a bit further. If we are going to give people the authority to legally shoot people we better loving make every effort to scrutinize their use of lethal force, especially on loving children.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:01
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When I hear stories like this I go into it prepared to give the cop the benefit of the doubt because there was basically a replica firearm involved and Cleveland has some loving sketchy areas but the part of Cleveland this happened in isn't one of those areas and the cop was apparently a rookie, so I guess this is yet another idiotic fatality resulting from inexperience and a lack of common sense. On paper I think an armed police force isn't that bad of an idea, considering how easy it is to get armed in this country it stands to reason that the police would need guns to compete with the criminals. But in reality lethal force gets misused constantly, usually by police officers who lack situational awareness, experience, common sense, and in some cases, apparently basic weapons safety training. Maybe if it was actually possible to fire a loving cop in this country the problem would correct itself, but instead we have a situation where irresponsible people can act irresponsibly with impunity because they know they'll be shielded from any potential fallout from their actions. Is there a solution to this problem? I hate to beat up on a union, but I can't help but feel like the police unions are the worst actor in the shittiest play of our time. Maybe it's time for them to go? 
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Nov 23, 2014 09:06
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Zeno-25 posted:Whatever that's a replica of (M1911?), the fake barrel easily makes it look like a 45. That is a very serious looking "toy". It's basically a 1911 but it has a DA style decocker on the slide for some reason. It has a rail, and if it ever had an orange marking on the muzzle it's been removed. There's no way to tell it apart from a deadly firearm.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:09
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Naturally Selected posted:I knew "don't point toy guns at people and especially cops" at 6-7 years old. Also toy guns and BB guns are different things. A toy gun is a brightly colored thing that shoots plastic balls, a $30 BB pistol will put out a .177 metal ball at 350-500fps and will look for all intents and purposes like a real pistol: a friend has a replica XD45 that cost him $35, and outside from the orange tip (not visible when it's in someone's waistband, or if removed), it looks dead-on even up close, let alone at 10-20 feet. They're fun toys as well, but you don't give a BB gun to a kid without teaching him about it. And no matter if you're black or white, rich or poor, you do *not* draw down on a pair of cops.  I'd just like to draw everyone's attention to this post because it's very important. This explains what stores need to do to safeguard black people from being shot in their stores after buying BB guns. They need to attach big brightly-colored plastic onto the gun to make them look like toys! If the gun looks less like it could kill a person and more like it'd just shoot a strung-up cork out, then no one could be mistaken for a murderer! Unless they do in which case thank god for the police's highly trained Murder Premonition alerting them to the impending rampage one of those people were intending to go on. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:10
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SedanChair posted:It's basically a 1911 but it has a DA style decocker on the slide for some reason. It has a rail, and if it ever had an orange marking on the muzzle it's been removed. There's no way to tell it apart from a deadly firearm. And yet the caller still somehow correctly determined it was probably fake. Perhaps they looked at other relevant information about the situation?
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Nov 23, 2014 09:12
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Everyday Lurker posted:We're not dealing with African child soldiers here. Hell if I would know what to do, it would be my word against a cops. I also can't believe we're having a rush of people saying a 12 year old got what was coming to him, Jesus gently caress this god drat country!
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Nov 23, 2014 09:12
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Zeno-25 posted:That is a very serious looking "toy".
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Nov 23, 2014 09:12
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I do not know what that cop should have done, but for myself I think I would honestly rather be killed by a child than kill a child. Reason #1 of many why I could/should never be a cop, I suppose. Also that cop with the in-case-of-apocalypse rape list is gonna give me nightmares tonight. All it is is a statement that as soon as he's in a situation where he knows he'll get away with it, he WILL rape someone. Christ. 
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Nov 23, 2014 09:13
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FuriousxGeorge posted:And yet the caller still somehow correctly determined it was probably fake. Perhaps they looked at other relevant information about the situation? They guessed, which isn't much to go on. Looking at it closely it's obvious that it's an airsoft gun but the cop didn't get the chance to look closely did he? Seriously folks, if you haven't had this conversation with your kids you should have it. My parents certainly did with me. You can't go waving realistic toy guns around in public.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:14
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SedanChair posted:They guessed, which isn't much to go on. Looking at it closely it's obvious that it's an airsoft gun but the cop didn't get the chance to look closely did he? They made a correct educated guess and the cop made an instant bad guess. As I said before, it's about the approach to the situation that goes straight to conflict and fight or flight. Twelve year olds will never be able to handle that right. Let's say it DID have an orange tip...the tip never would have left his waistband! The cop only made "the right call" if the only call he gets to make is a split second GUN OR NOT!!?? and I feel like there was a different approach possible. I think we agree there. quote:When police arrived, a group of people were sitting around a table under a gazebo next to the rec center's parking lot. A rookie officer in the car saw the pistol sitting on the table, and watched the boy grab it and put it in his waistband This doesn't scream Columbine at the Rec Center, it sounds like (even if you assume it's a real gun) somebody showing off to other kids. Is there any way to handle this you can try before approaching with your gun raised? v "Probably fake" FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:18
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FuriousxGeorge posted:And yet the caller still somehow correctly determined it was probably fake.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:18
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SedanChair posted:They guessed, which isn't much to go on. Looking at it closely it's obvious that it's an airsoft gun but the cop didn't get the chance to look closely did he? This is actually an important point: everyone should have the "cop talk" with their kids.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:19
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tezcat posted:Wait, so the officers were informed about the gun being fake from the getgo? I take it back. Even Carl Winslow would not have fired on the kid. Well, there is this: quote:Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association president Jeff Follmer said the fact that the caller said the gun was probably fake was never relayed to the responding officers. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/9-1-1_caller_says_gun_held_by.html#incart_related_stories
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Nov 23, 2014 09:21
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tezcat posted:Wait, so the officers were informed about the gun being fake from the getgo? I take it back. Even Carl Winslow would not have fired on the kid. Yea, from the story earlier the caller who told police about the kid mentioned it was probably fake. I'm guessing probably because he saw him firing and thus knew it was BBs or what have you, or because the kid told people it was fake for some reason. The Cops said they have a policy of never assuming guns are fake though.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:22
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RareAcumen posted:
What the gently caress are you even on about? There's goddamn *laws* in this country that specifically describe what safety markers every non-real gun should have, and in some states laws that make it a crime to take those markers off the gun. This has absolutely FUCKALL to do with race, you idiot. This, however, has everything to do with the last sentence in the post you quoted: don't ever draw on a cop.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:27
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Naturally Selected posted:
Realtalk for a moment. Do you think you even have to draw on a cop for a cop to shoot you? Does what you draw even have to be a gun? You do realize nobody is actually arguing that ACTUALLY drawing on a cop is a good idea right?
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Nov 23, 2014 09:30
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I mean if the kid was white would the cop have responded differently? Who knows.FuriousxGeorge posted:They made a correct educated guess and the cop made an instant bad guess. As I said before, it's about the approach to the situation that goes straight to conflict and fight or flight. Twelve year olds will never be able to handle that right. Let's say it DID have an orange tip...the tip never would have left his waistband! The cop only made "the right call" if the only call he gets to make is a split second GUN OR NOT!!?? and I feel like there was a different approach possible. I think we agree there. Sure, I just don't know what that approach is beyond "reform the police." Once you get a cop under our current system out to that call, the scenario is predictable.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:31
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SedanChair posted:I mean if the kid was white would the cop have responded differently? Who knows. In this situation, simply treating it more as a standoff than a situation that required direct confrontation would have been safer for both the officer and the kid.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:36
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KomradeX posted:Hell if I would know what to do, it would be my word against a cops. Look I don't really agree with SedanChair on this but at the same time you guys acting like a twelve year old is incapable of being threatening is kind of alarmingly naive "A twelve year old outside of a public building with a gun" is how the Jonesboro Massacre started, remember? You're into puberty at twelve. A lot of the choicest mental illnesses start to materialize at this point. There's also tons of hormonal instability going on. The cop didn't know anything about this kid going into this other than an eyewitness report that apparently wasn't fully shared with him to begin with, and while I certainly blame him for the situation escalating to the point of violence, I don't know if I can necessarily fault him for pulling the trigger. Gun looks real to me. The cop's error, IMO, was how he approached the situation, not necessarily what he did when he got there.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:37
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FuriousxGeorge posted:In this situation, simply treating it more as a standoff than a situation that required direct confrontation would have been safer for both the officer and the kid. That's how the officer was treating it, and then the kid drew on him.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:38
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Berk Berkly posted:Realtalk for a moment. Realtalk: Read the post I'm responding to, which ascribes a shitload of things to me that I didn't say or even think, while also calling me a racist. Dude's either actually stupid or trying to start poo poo, so I felt that needed restating. As to the rest of it, no. There's as many assholes and idiots that become cops as there are in any other profession, only they get to carry guns. In this particular case the kid drew a longslide 1911 with zero distinguishing features from the real thing on a pair of cops. It is absolutely a tragic event, but the cops are not in the wrong here. SedanChair posted:I mean if the kid was white would the cop have responded differently? Who knows. As I recall, the laws and regs that mandate safety tips and other really obvious THIS IS NOT A REAL GUN markings actually came about in the mid-90s because a bunch of white kids got shot after waving replica guns around. It's also why you won't ever be allowed to play on an actual airsoft field if you cover up the orange blazes on your guns. Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:43
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A standoff at a much greater distance while you figure out what is actually happening, instead of the type of standoff where you approach someone with your gun pointed at them and issue orders.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:44
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Zeno-25 posted:Whatever that's a replica of (M1911?), the fake barrel easily makes it look like a 45. That is a very serious looking "toy". That looks more like what a stereotypical "Gun" looks like than actual guns I have held. Does the 2nd Amendment apply to toy guns? Toy guns like that should probably not be sold.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:46
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FuriousxGeorge posted:A standoff at a much greater distance while you figure out what is actually happening, instead of the type of standoff where you approach someone with your gun pointed at them and issue orders. Yeah, this is where my beef is with this situation. The police admit this much: quote:At an evening press conference, Deputy Chief Ed Tomba of the Cleveland police said the boy did not threaten the officers or point the weapon at them. "There was no verbal or no confrontation,” he said. It sounds to me like the cop approached the kid from behind, shouted an order, and then shot when the kid reacted. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even realize he was approached by the police until the moment he'd been shot.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:48
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SedanChair posted:That's how the officer was treating it, and then the kid drew on him. Drawing the gun makes it sound like he deliberately pulled it in an attempt to aim at them. All the story said was that he grabbed the gun to pull it free and never got to the point of doing anything else with it before being struck by a bullet in his gut. For a 12 year old, I sort of doubt he sincerely thought he was about to gun down a pair of cops with his BB gun when they were already aiming at him. It is far more likely the kid was panicking and trying to toss it in anxious moment of stupidity.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:48
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Naturally Selected posted:What the gently caress are you even on about? There's goddamn *laws* in this country that specifically describe what safety markers every non-real gun should have, and in some states laws that make it a crime to take those markers off the gun. Whoa man, chill. I'm just saying that if BBguns were sold to 'scary' people in brightly colored plastic cases that made them look like Super Soakers John Crawford probably wouldn't have been shot as fast. Or maybe that'd have been reported as ruse to fool people into thinking he wasn't dangerous when he totally was! I mean, the real answer is better training of cops and actually holding them accountable when it turns out the person they shot was unarmed but this is America and doing the simple solution is not usually the first response.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:48
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E: ^^Aren't there like 50 pages of actual racist poo poo you could be glomming onto? gently caress off.Meat Recital posted:That looks more like what a stereotypical "Gun" looks like than actual guns I have held. Does the 2nd Amendment apply to toy guns? Toy guns like that should probably not be sold. I've mentioned this before, but decided to get a source anyways: "In the United States since 1992, toy guns are required to have an orange plug or be entirely brightly colored to signify them as toys." As per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_weapon#Dangers_and_controversy Some states or cities also make it a crime to modify a toy gun to fully resemble a real gun. NYC or NYS does it, I'm not quite sure which jurisdiction it is, but carrying something like that "toy" will get you a nice vaca in NYC at least. Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:49
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SedanChair posted:If you saw a kid pull a gun out of his waistband what would you think? In a split second. That the kid is putting people and himself in danger and I need to recover the gun from him by talking to him? I mean, what are the chances he's actually out to murder me or anyone else? Condiv fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:50
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Berk Berkly posted:Drawing the gun makes it sound like he deliberately pulled it in an attempt to aim at them. All the story said was that he grabbed the gun to pull it free and never got to the point of doing anything else with it before being struck by a bullet in his gut. Oh certainly the kid panicked. Nonetheless the action he took appeared to be a draw.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:53
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Naturally Selected posted:I've mentioned this before, but decided to get a source anyways: Not falling one way or the other on the issue, but someone earlier brought up that since it was stuck in the kids waste band the cop couldn't have seen the orange tip unless the kid fully pulled it out. In the initial drawing motion they would have been indistinguishable.
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Nov 23, 2014 09:53
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FuriousxGeorge posted:And yet the caller still somehow correctly determined it was probably fake. Perhaps they looked at other relevant information about the situation? As someone who knows something about 911 call taking and dispatching of public safety resources, most goons here would most likely be served well by the notion that it is an arcane art of great uncertainty. The caller is never reliable. Not out of malice, but out of confusion. The reporting party calls, the call takers receives it, the dispatcher dispatches and later down the road might instruct units enroute until a cop on the other end is standing there. What someone said on the phone serves as a basic guideline to get the response. A realistic 1:1 looking firearm on a waistband and no one gives a poo poo what the reporting party said about it being "maybe fake". Really. No one should and also luckily most do not roll on the mentality the dispatch info being ever correct in any way. I think the cop is a retard and jumpy and what not. But you can stop bringing up the "fact" that the reporting party "instructed" them on the nature of the "firearm". That is not how it works. An electrician does not take the neighbor's word on the fact that the current is off. Yours truly: Responding to a "minor disturbance" that was a drunk dude with a shotgun. Edit; who had shot his kids Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:56
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Condiv posted:That the kid is putting people in danger and I need to recover the gun from him by talking to him? I mean, what are the chances he's actually out to murder me or anyone else? Pubescent adolescents are fully capable of committing violent crimes. Just in the last few months a twelve year old in Michigan stabbed a nine year old to death, a twelve year old in florida murdered a hobo, and a twelve year old girl in Wisconsin attempted to murder another girl she knew to appease an internet meme. I would never ask somebody to gamble with their life in a confrontation with somebody who has a lethal weapon, even if it turns out after the fact that the lethal weapon was just a very convincing replica. GhostofJohnMuir posted:Not falling one way or the other on the issue, but someone earlier brought up that since it was stuck in the kids waste band the cop couldn't have seen the orange tip unless the kid fully pulled it out. In the initial drawing motion they would have been indistinguishable. This is just an argument against the ownership of replica firearms, not really an argument against the level of force the cop used. The orange tip was a stupid compromise when toy guns should have just been banned outright.Mirthless fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:56
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This is confusing me:quote:Police say the boy was told to drop what he was holding and did not. He reached to his waistband and was then shot outside of the rec center. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/22/12-year-old-shot-at-cleveland-rec-center/19413165/ If he was told to drop it this is a different story. I assume this is just sloppy reporting though because the two sentences together are weird. quote:who had poo poo his kids Just to prove your point I'm believing this is what actually happened. FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 09:58
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Personally, I would think the better action for the cops to take would be to walk up to the kid and just start talking with him while in close enough proximity to restrain him if need be. Not to sneak up on him and just start yelling at him.
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Nov 23, 2014 10:02
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Mirthless posted:This is just an argument against the ownership of replica firearms, not really an argument against the level of force the cop used. I wouldn't say banned, but sure as gently caress not look realistic in the least. There's no reason a 12 year old needs to play with a black 1911. Keep the shape, sure, paint it orange/yellow/whatever and have fun messing with it. poo poo, take a page out of the paintball market and start doing sick paintjobs and no one's gonna whine that their toy isn't black and scary enough. GhostofJohnMuir posted:Not falling one way or the other on the issue, but someone earlier brought up that since it was stuck in the kids waste band the cop couldn't have seen the orange tip unless the kid fully pulled it out. In the initial drawing motion they would have been indistinguishable. I was that one that brought that up, actually. Point's moot anyways, since in this case the tip was removed-doesn't matter whether he drew it completely or not, it'd still like a 45 longslide. Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 10:06
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