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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, "perception of peace" is a necessity for populations to begin to elect non-far right folks. It takes time to achieve, and you need predictability with your actions. This is called "Let's blame the victims for not rolling over and taking it" The issue with why their resistance is unpredictable is for the exact reason you mention: They make no gains against a continuous onslaught of disenfranchisement and apartheid colonialism. Stop. Blaming. The. Victims.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:08
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CommieGIR posted:This is called "Let's blame the victims for not rolling over and taking it" Stop assigning Palestinians zero agency for their foreign policy.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:Stop assigning Palestinians zero agency for their foreign policy. Palestine's a nation?
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Nov 28, 2014 03:14
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There's no Palestinian state to have a foreign policy.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:14
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Seriously my eyes just glaze whenever MIGF is at it. Everything he posts has the most tenuous connection to what he's replying to it's almost endearing, it's like he's a robot designed to deflect criticism of Israel and the US government through constant filibustering. GlennFinito posted:Which forms of ID do you have to show at checkpoints to gain access to roads? The ID cards, Palestinians have PA issued ID cards which are in themselves distinctive, I believe people also require permits, at least in some crossings, I don't know how those roads really work logistically, I assume many of them simply originate in Israeli settlements which have checkpoints at the entrance, also worth noting that Israeli cars have different colored license plates than Palestinian cars. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 03:14
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My Imaginary GF posted:Stop assigning Palestinians zero agency for their foreign policy. Oh, its okay, you apparently assign no agency to the Israeli Government for their Domestic Policy 
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Nov 28, 2014 03:14
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My Imaginary GF posted:Although I disagree with your imprecise use of terms, something like that. Let me clarify: everyone except the leftist in my example is a vile piece of poo poo. The leftist is busy drinking his liver into an early grave. The fact that you apparently took that as some kind of agreement with your stated opinion of "Palestinians should take it without complaining", I'm going to go ahead and say you're crazy.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:Stop assigning Palestinians zero agency for their foreign policy. You already got jumped on for this but it cannot be stated enough that Israel does not permit Palestine to have a foreign policy.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:23
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Miltank posted:You already got jumped on for this but it cannot be stated enough that Israel does not permit Palestine to have a foreign policy. Palestinians clearly have popular opinion in foreign policy issues. Namely, in favor of a one-state solution. It takes leadership to prevent Palestinians from undertaking this doomed effort, leadership which Hamas does not, nor has ever, had.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:Palestinians clearly have popular opinion in foreign policy issues. Namely, in favor of a one-state solution. It takes leadership to prevent Palestinians from undertaking this doomed effort, leadership which Hamas does not, nor has ever, had. ......yeah, that leadership is called the Israeli Government. Stop posting. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 03:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:Palestinians clearly have popular opinion in foreign policy issues. Namely, in favor of a one-state solution. It takes leadership to prevent Palestinians from undertaking this doomed effort, leadership which Hamas does not, nor has ever, had. So the only acceptable foreign policy for Palestinians is a dictator who ignores their wishes?
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Nov 28, 2014 03:40
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SedanChair posted:So the only acceptable foreign policy for Palestinians is a dictator who ignores their wishes? Until they can be trusted to elect officials through democratic processes, who'll proceed to ignore their wishes once in positions of power and authority, you've come across the best possible hope for peace. I'm glad you understand, SedanChair. If you keep demonstrating a sufficient level of understanding like this, heck, you'll sound like you're an Israeli moderate soon enough.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:49
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My Imaginary GF posted:Until they can be trusted to elect officials through democratic processes, who'll proceed to ignore their wishes once in positions of power and authority, you've come across the best possible hope for peace. That's be great if the Israeli government hasn't gone out of its way to ENSURE THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE. My Imaginary GF posted:I'm glad you understand, SedanChair. If you keep demonstrating a sufficient level of understanding like this, heck, you'll sound like you're an Israeli moderate soon enough. Please tell me you are being sarcastic.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:Until they can be trusted to elect officials through democratic processes, who'll proceed to ignore their wishes once in positions of power and authority, you've come across the best possible hope for peace. Understanding an atrocity does not tend to bring one closer to participating in it.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:56
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CommieGIR posted:That's be great if the Israeli government hasn't gone out of its way to ENSURE THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE. The Gaza Strip needs an Abbas figure, except even more ruthless and willing to ignore the popular will. SedanChair posted:Understanding an atrocity does not tend to bring one closer to participating in it. Again, I completely agree, especially as regards Israeli comprehension of policy development leading to Shoah.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:The Gaza Strip needs an Abbas figure, except even more ruthless and willing to ignore the popular will. A Gazan Saddam, if you will
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Nov 28, 2014 03:57
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SedanChair posted:A Gazan Saddam, if you will Sadat may not be the leader Palestinians want; Sadat is the leader Palestinians need.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:00
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My Imaginary GF posted:The Gaza Strip needs an Abbas figure, except even more ruthless and willing to ignore the popular will. Yes, lets ignore all outside influences for the reasoning behind the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.Nuke Iran, amirite?
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Nov 28, 2014 04:00
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If the participation of the Palestinians is not required, why bother with a Palestinian leader? Just install an Israeli governor-general.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, "perception of peace" is a necessity for populations to begin to elect non-far right folks. It takes time to achieve, and you need predictability with your actions. Ah, a 2000 year approach. Perhaps Israel just needs to be conquered by the United States so that it can be forced into appropriate policy. It seems the Israeli political system is worthless, so we need to actually take over for their own good.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:27
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SedanChair posted:If the participation of the Palestinians is not required, why bother with a Palestinian leader? Just install an Israeli governor-general. Because Israel has a genuine interest in a two-state solution and respects Palestinian sovreignty. If Israel were to ever appoint an official Governor-General recognized as such, then we would know that the Israelis truly had non-security related intention.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:Because Israel has a genuine interest in a two-state solution and respects Palestinian sovereignty. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Thanks for playing. What they SAY they want, and what they do are two different things. Actions speak louder than words, etc etc.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:Because Israel has a genuine interest in a two-state solution and respects Palestinian sovreignty. If Israel were to ever appoint an official Governor-General recognized as such, then we would know that the Israelis truly had non-security related intention. I don't think they've been hiding those intentions very well so far.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:Because Israel has a genuine interest in a two-state solution and respects Palestinian sovreignty. If Israel were to ever appoint an official Governor-General recognized as such, then we would know that the Israelis truly had non-security related intention. Their behavior does not appear to match this perception, though. A more accurate perception would be that Israel would annex the occupied territories were it not for the fact that it would obligate them to make the Palestinian population citizens. Large scale action to remove the Palestinian population would draw too much heat, but a slow one would not particularly bother the world, particularly with constant distractions elsewhere in the Middle East. Also, what negative consequences would there be for the US to expel all lobbies associated with foreign countries? They are basically entities run by foreign intelligence agencies, and the country's foreign policy would be much more effective without their influence.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:42
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Do you know who in this thread is a bigger moron than MIGF? All you loving idiots still replying to him 22 pages later.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:42
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nopantsjack posted:Do you know who in this thread is a bigger moron than MIGF? I enjoy firing up my realpolitik. I got him to have a breakdown about how nothing I said was remotely feasible.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:47
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My Imaginary GF posted:Because Israel has a genuine interest in a two-state solution and respects Palestinian sovreignty. Is that true?
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Nov 28, 2014 04:58
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Panzeh posted:Also, what negative consequences would there be for the US to expel all lobbies associated with foreign countries? They are basically entities run by foreign intelligence agencies, and the country's foreign policy would be much more effective without their influence.  You realize "expel all lobbies associated with foreign countries" is related to historical policies of, "expel all the Jews," don't you?
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Nov 28, 2014 05:00
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My Imaginary GF posted:
I never said anything specific. Perhaps I am concerned about Putin attempting to exercise influence in the US government. Governments must look out for themselves. My advocacy is to increase US power and influence, rather than fritter it away in service of would-be client states. I guess if you're going to say there's a slippery slope here, I don't think you have a very good case. Running a military-industrial complex all the time is also related to Nazi policy at that level of tenuousness, but I am sure you will not oppose that. I know the optimal plays in terms of foreign policy at least in terms of increasing US power. What about you? Jack of Hearts posted:Not in America. In America it's associated with expelling the French, which is a wholly American and worthwhile endeavor. Agreed. I am more American than steak, apple pie, and Hulk Hogan all put together. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 05:07
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My Imaginary GF posted:
Settlement campaigns ring a bell? Oh wait, they are just lousy Muslims.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:07
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My Imaginary GF posted:
Not in America. In America it's associated with expelling the French, which is a wholly American and worthwhile endeavor.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:08
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Jack of Hearts posted:Not in America. In America it's associated with expelling the French, which is a wholly American and worthwhile endeavor. I thought the French provided logistical support in the American Revolution? Benjamin Franklin hosed a lot of French women to make this possible. Blame France for contributing heavily to our failed experiment but not for failing to contribute.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:12
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syscall girl posted:I thought the French provided logistical support in the American Revolution? American foreign policy shifted decisively away from France very quickly after the war and we never repaid the debt we accrued. It was a clever strategy for a cash-strapped country knowing that the French revolutionary government would probably not respond.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:14
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Panzeh posted:I never said anything specific. Perhaps I am concerned about Putin attempting to exercise influence in the US government. Governments must look out for themselves. My advocacy is to increase US power and influence, rather than fritter it away in service of would-be client states. We're in the I/P thread, discussing American-Israeli policy, and you say 'I never said anything specific'? Boy, if I was less generous of a man, would I say thats the most dogwhistle of all dogwhistles. Foreign influence always happens. You create a system which channels that foreign influence into domestic profit and capital accumulation at a higher rate than is being spent by the foreign lobby. Simply, you co-opt foreign influence into your domestic policy agenda and use it to make some money. That's really the best you can hope for, given the alternarive policy options will eventually result in "expel all Jews." That fact is why Israel maintains its right of return. Panzeh posted:American foreign policy shifted decisively away from France very quickly after the war and we never repaid the debt we accrued. It was a clever strategy for a cash-strapped country knowing that the French revolutionary government would probably not respond. America has no allies; it has "interests" and "special relationships." Our special relationships is what differences us from France: we've institutionalized mechanisms to gain a special relation with us. Also, wasn't really a strategy. American interests have change every election; some remain longer than others. Those which are more important than elections are "special relations." America had a 'special relation' with the Louisiana Territories during the early Republic. Simply, we didn't care if the French responded, we wanted to buy them out. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 05:21
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nopantsjack posted:Do you know who in this thread is a bigger moron than MIGF? I agree comrade change MIGF's name to "THREAD DERAILED"
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Nov 28, 2014 05:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's really the best you can hope for, given the alternarive policy options will eventually result in "expel all Jews." That fact is why Israel maintains its right of return. How about 'Stop stealing our land, bulldozing our towns, and building illegal settlements? That might be conducive to a more cooperative political partnership. But hey, its all the Palestinians fault.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:We're in the I/P thread, discussing American-Israeli policy, and you say 'I never said anything specific'? Boy, if I was less generous of a man, would I say thats the most dogwhistle of all dogwhistles. You seem to think reducing Israeli influence in US foreign policy will result in another Holocaust. You are extemely irrational and have no grasp of strategy. The other explanation is that you are an Israeli agent and are looking to reduce the power of the United States. I am trying to be charitable here. You seem extremely defensive about poor strategy. The United States will have plenty of money with reduced levels of foreign influence on the US government.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:25
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CommieGIR posted:How about 'Stop stealing our land, bulldozing our towns, and building illegal settlements? That might be conducive to a more cooperative political partnership. If they wanted America to force Israel to stop, there are ways to do so. Continued attacks on Israel raise that price.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:If they wanted America to force Israel to stop, there are ways to do so. You really don't understand the I/P conflict at all.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:29
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CommieGIR posted:
You underestimate America's institutionalization of "gently caress you, pay me." Palestinians are either unwilling or unable to pay to play, yet they still attempt to sit at the table.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:32
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