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My Imaginary GF posted:Palestinians are either unwilling or unable to pay to play, yet they still attempt to sit at the table. CommieGIR posted:
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Nov 28, 2014 05:33
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You really don't understand the I/P conflict at all.
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My Imaginary GF posted:If they wanted America to force Israel to stop, there are ways to do so. I have a better plan. Put military pressure on the Israeli government until they accede to our demand to allow the US to appoint the Knesset, and then we will no longer have to worry about Netenyahu or the Israeli right wing. We can then solve the problem at our leisure. If they run to Putin or the Chinese, let them have Netenyahu. Let them pay for Israel. More money for us. Israel needs to pay to play. They need to pay us tribute and bend the knee. Maybe in 2000 years the situation will change and they can be a superpower.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:34
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MIGF is reasonablehitler.jpg IRL.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:You underestimate America's institutionalization of "gently caress you, pay me." Palestinians are either unwilling or unable to pay to play, yet they still attempt to sit at the table. I don't understand how 3 billion dollars annual aid to pay for tanks, planes, bulldozers and failed kibbutzim results in us getting paid. Unless you mean some of that money coming back to bribe and coerce our spineless politicians.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:39
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syscall girl posted:I don't understand how 3 billion dollars annual aid to pay for tanks, planes, bulldozers and failed kibbutzim results in us getting paid. Unless you mean some of that money coming back to bribe and coerce our spineless politicians. Your ignorance on the issue does not result from my responsibilities; they are entirely your own. If you don't understand the business of security policy and foreign trade, I posted a decent primer on one specific aspect in the previous I/P threat relating to one American VC fund with Israeli contracting opportunities for use by Arab elites. And yes, more money comes back than goes out. That's not bribery, that's smart business. If the Palestinians are unwilling to be smart in their business affairs, they'll have to wait until too much money overwhelms American politics and the cost per vote becomes cheaper to act upon with expenditures of social capital than it is to purchase votes with media, while also forming social capital at a rate exceeding those individuals, communities, and nations with pro-Israel values. My recommendation? Palestinians must publicly fold during this round of the game, so that they have some chips on the table when the next round begins. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 06:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:Palestinians clearly have popular opinion in foreign policy issues. Namely, in favor of a one-state solution. It takes leadership to prevent Palestinians from undertaking this doomed effort, leadership which Hamas does not, nor has ever, had. As usual, you out yourself as getting all of your information from Democratic insiders and repeatedly ignore anyone trying to school you here, some of whom know a lot more than you. The Abbas government repeatedly works under the two-state framework - it is Israel which keeps on building settlements and calling Palestinian actions it doesn't like, including saying mean words or going to the UN, "terrorism". As for Hamas, it has repeatedly offered to accept a Palestinian state for, say, the next 20 years. 20 years is a long time, plenty enough time for the likes of you to help Israel and Palestine develop infrastructure and trade relations which will give both of them enough skin in the Two State solution to stop them from deciding to reshuffle the deck and go to war. It's really easy, it's within reach, all the US has to do is just not veto UNSC resolutions against Israel. They don't even have to vote in favor of anything. Let other people take initiative, and gently caress Israel for not only being poo poo, but being entitled shits on top of it. ETA: My Imaginary GF posted:Sadat may not be the leader Palestinians want; Sadat is the leader Palestinians need. Unfortunately, Israel had Sadat, and signed memoranda with him which would have gone on the path to Palestinian statehood with whichever leadership they wanted; they could have approached Arafat, he sure as hell was trying to reach out to them. Instead they decided they're going to gently caress with PLO, invaded Lebanon, stayed there for almost 20 years, and meanwhile had to be dragged kicking and screaming into negotiations a decade later, first in Madrid and then in Oslo (the latter channel having been originally opened by Arafat in 1979!). Israel could have had a two state solution. Instead it didn't. Now it still can, but the price was, is, and will be higher, and it's not going to get any cheaper. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 06:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:And yes, more money comes back than goes out. That's not bribery, that's smart business. If the Palestinians are unwilling to be smart in their business affairs, they'll have to wait until too much money overwhelms American politics and the cost per vote becomes cheaper to act upon with expenditures of social capital than it is to purchase votes with media, while also forming social capital at a rate exceeding those individuals, communities, and nations with pro-Israel values. .......please stop posting in the I/P thread.
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Nov 28, 2014 06:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:
Please don't act appalled at this point.
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Nov 28, 2014 06:50
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SedanChair posted:Please don't act appalled at this point. anitsemite
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Nov 28, 2014 07:10
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The Cheif Rabbi of the IDF, everyone:Brigadier-General Rafi Peretz posted:The IDF's Chief Rabbi, Brig.-Gen. Rafi Peretz, was recorded speaking strongly against members of the Muslim faith who pray at the Temple Mount. In a transcript of a religious lecture uploaded to the website Kippa, at Mechina Atzmona, Peretz is quoted as answering student questions regarding the significance of the Temple Mount in Islam. Channel 10 later aired a recording of the lecture.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:23
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Cugel the Clever posted:The Cheif Rabbi of the IDF, everyone: Well, is he incorrect?
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Nov 28, 2014 07:30
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Yes
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Nov 28, 2014 07:33
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Al-Aqsa is mentioned.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:34
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My Imaginary GF posted:
I agree. All lobbies should be expelled equally because they're all universally bad.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:34
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syscall girl posted:Al-Aqsa is mentioned. Link to mention of Jerusalem in Koran? Job Truniht posted:I agree. All lobbies should be expelled equally because they're all universally bad.  Even the indian casino lobby? You're calling for the removal of native americans from America, which is pretty... well, un-America these days.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:35
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Enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwhdcoVbPEY
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Nov 28, 2014 07:37
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Not asking for an explanation; I'm asking for a direct citation from a koran.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not asking for an explanation; I'm asking for a direct citation from a koran. http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/017-qmt.php#017.001 farthest mosque is al-aqsa
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Nov 28, 2014 07:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not asking for an explanation; I'm asking for a direct citation from a koran.  "Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing."
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Nov 28, 2014 07:52
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syscall girl posted:
How do I know thats in Jerusalem?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0Y2hVe_bw
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Nov 28, 2014 08:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:How do I know thats in Jerusalem? Indeed, gently caress the Muslims and their scholarly traditions. Also, burn the Torah.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:09
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My Imaginary GF posted:How do I know thats in Jerusalem? Because of written history?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:13
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Jack of Hearts posted:Indeed, gently caress the Muslims and their scholarly traditions. Also, burn the Torah. So then no, its 'a distant mosque,' which non-contemporaries explained as Jerusalem due to political reasons. Technically, the rabbi is correct: Jerusalem is not in a koran My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 08:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:So then no, its 'a distant mosque,' which non-contemporaries explained as Jerusalem due to political reasons. Given that your whole shtick lies in being explicitly amoral, it's a little weird to see you delving into scriptural interpretations. Given that the other part of your shtick lies in being consistently ignorant, it seems as though perhaps you ought to refrain.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:20
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Jack of Hearts posted:Given that your whole shtick lies in being explicitly amoral, it's a little weird to see you delving into scriptural interpretations. Given that the other part of your shtick lies in being consistently ignorant, it seems as though perhaps you ought to refrain. That's my point, the rabbi is factually correct: Jerusalem does not appear in a koran. A vague reference to a distance mosque appears; early scholars disagreed on this location. Ultimately, with standardization, it was determined the location was Jerusalem due to political reasons. If you cannot accept that "Jerusalem does not appear in a koran" is a factual statement, then I very much doubt Israeli security will appreciate your desire to travel to the administrative jurisdiction of Jerusalem.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:33
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Job Truniht posted:I agree. All lobbies should be expelled equally because they're all universally bad. "I could've been talking about kicking out all those disloyal fifth-columnist Estonian lobbyists" is to "When I said feral urban thugs deserve to get shot by the cops I didn't mention race at all" as I/P threads are to police shooting threats.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's my point, the rabbi is factually correct: Jerusalem does not appear in a koran. A vague reference to a distance mosque appears; early scholars disagreed on this location. Ultimately, with standardization, it was determined the location was Jerusalem due to political reasons. well the rabbi general said that it's "not even hinted at" which is factually incorrect because it is hinted at. anyway this is pedantic and stupid
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Nov 28, 2014 08:39
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The Insect Court posted:"I could've been talking about kicking out all those disloyal fifth-columnist Estonian lobbyists" is to "When I said feral urban thugs deserve to get shot by the cops I didn't mention race at all" as I/P threads are to police shooting threats. AIPAC is a domestic lobby in America on a foreign policy issue. To label such lobbies as 'foreigners who need to be expelled' is a case of anti-semitism, even though you've much too freely accused individuals of anti-semitism in your previous posts. Jagchosis posted:well the rabbi general said that it's "not even hinted at" which is factually incorrect because it is hinted at. anyway this is pedantic and stupid I/P: anyway this is pedantic and stupid thats the heart of this conflict, innit? disagreements over pedantic issues on which both sides hold themselves technically correct, and upon which one, when using the standard methodologies of the other, is more correct and the other therefore is discounted by its own methodology for the record, show me the earliest koran known and we'll see whether Jerusalem is hinted at My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 08:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's my point, the rabbi is factually correct: Jerusalem does not appear in a koran. A vague reference to a distance mosque appears; early scholars disagreed on this location. Ultimately, with standardization, it was determined the location was Jerusalem due to political reasons. Do you even understand your own arguments? Which is it? Objective fact, or the interpretation of the stronger party? On the objective side, what you're arguing doesn't even rise to the level of pedantry, given that we're talking about holy scripture, and since probably none of it ever happened, consensus opinion is kinda important. What's particularly ugly, though, is that you read a quote from a religious chauvinist trying to deny that another religious group has authentic ties to a holy site -- whatever the other group has to say about it -- and your first instinct is to leap to the defense of cultural erasure. Hey, buddy, if the Israelis are as strong as you claim, you don't need to go to bat for them over the nasty stuff they say! They'll be fine without you.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:48
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The French National Assembly is currently debating a resolution petitioning the Government to recognize Palestine. There will be an official vote on this resolution on next Tuesday.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:37
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Discussing who is the most to blame is really not very interesting. Instead I would like to see a discussion of the worst case scenario : Neither the one-state or the two-state solution occurs and Israel Is able to retain domination over all the occupied territories indefinitely despite facing permanent revolt and international sanctions. In this situation organizing a massive relocation of Palestinians to neighbouring countries and elsewhere migth be the humane options. Of course this means allowing ethnic cleansing and would in effect constitute a total Israeli victory which would be a real shame, but at some point one has to realistic about what can be achieved. It seems like a good idea for the international community to draw up some plans for this possible endgame to the I/P conflict. Especially since this is the most likely outcome given the way that events have developed. Are there any largely depopulated areas left in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc where it would be possible to transfer the Palestinians too, and what incentives would it take to get these states to accept this solution? Could western countries be made to accept taking in at least 50% of the Palestinian population as refugees? If not this planned is doomed from the start since the Arab states resent the Palestinians they already have and will not want to accept any more without the first world taking on a pretty huge part of the burden. I think this migth the best possible plan in the event of the the worst possible outcome.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:38
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Baudolino posted:Discussing who is the most to blame is really not very interesting. Instead I would like to see a discussion of the worst case scenario : Neither the one-state or the two-state solution occurs and Israel Is able to retain domination over all the occupied territories indefinitely despite facing permanent revolt and international sanctions. The ideal solution here is relocating all the Israelis to Nevada. We'll just blanket them in a probably harmless sleeping gas one night and ship them over en masse. Might want to throw the christian fundamentalists in there with them so they can play out their eschatology with big red buttons connected to imaginary nuclear weapons. Fund the whole project via reality teevee.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:48
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I'm pretty sure "mass resettlement of Palestinians to unpopulated land" never panned out because unpopulated land tends to be pretty lovely. Sure, their current land is also pretty lovely, but no matter how you package it, to them it will feel like "You guys want to give up, move to some God forsaken hellhole in some other country and completely abandon all attempts to get restitution from Israel?" and between that and possibly being resettled from the holiest lands in all of Islam to the Hala'ib Triangle, that kind of solution would likely just get a lot of people very mad without creating a whole lot of progress.
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Nov 28, 2014 10:27
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DrProsek posted:I'm pretty sure "mass resettlement of Palestinians to unpopulated land" never panned out because unpopulated land tends to be pretty lovely. Sure, their current land is also pretty lovely, but no matter how you package it, to them it will feel like "You guys want to give up, move to some God forsaken hellhole in some other country and completely abandon all attempts to get restitution from Israel?" and between that and possibly being resettled from the holiest lands in all of Islam to the Hala'ib Triangle, that kind of solution would likely just get a lot of people very mad without creating a whole lot of progress. Also it falls under the legal definition of genocide. Which is kinda distasteful.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:How do I know thats in Jerusalem? Because 1300 years of interpretation of the Quran tell you that you ignorant loving dolt. Or a brief reading of the wikipedia article: https://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque Popular consensus of scholars posted:In Islam, the term "al-Aqsa Mosque" refers to the entire Noble Sanctuary. The mosque is believed to be the second house of prayer constructed after the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca. Post-Rashidun-era Islamic scholars traditionally identified the mosque as the site referred to in the sura (Qur'anic chapter) al-Isra ("the Night Journey"). The specific passage reads "Praise be to Him who made His servant journey in the night from the sacred sanctuary to the remotest sanctuary." Muslims identify the "sacred sanctuary" as the Masjid al-Haram and the "remotest sanctuary" as the al-Aqsa Mosque. This specific verse in the Qur'an cemented the significant religious importance of al-Aqsa in Islam.[56] Initially, Rashidun and Umayyad-era scholars were in disagreement about the location of the "remotest sanctuary" with some arguing it was actually located near Mecca. Eventually scholarly consensus determined that its location was indeed in Jerusalem.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:52
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My Imaginary GF posted:AIPAC is a domestic lobby in America on a foreign policy issue. To label such lobbies as 'foreigners who need to be expelled' is a case of anti-semitism, even though you've much too freely accused individuals of anti-semitism in your previous posts. Man, you start to play the moralism card awfully fast, don't you? You screech anti-semitism at every turn. There are more Jews in the US than there are in Israel. A domestic lobby with Jewish interests in mind need not shill for Israel, but it does, which indicates that it is run by foreign intelligence. If lobbies for Israel want to be considered domestic, Israel should apply to become the 51st state. Of course, that would involve handing over control of security and foreign policy, but it's a small price to pay, no?
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Nov 28, 2014 12:28
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Here's a non PC post: Saying that the 'far away mosque' mentioned in the Quran during Muhammad's night journey is the al Aqsa mosque is... dishonest to say the least, that mosque was built nearly a century after Muhammad passed on. I mean traditions are nice and all but I have no qualms about saying that the Torah is a fabrication so I don't know why I have to pretend like Muslim tradition holds more historical validity. Jerusalem is however mentioned as Solomon's temple (mosque) is mentioned, so in the very least it is hinted upon.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:01
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Here's a non PC post: Saying that the 'far away mosque' mentioned in the Quran during Muhammad's night journey is the al Aqsa mosque is... dishonest to say the least, that mosque was built nearly a century after Muhammad passed on. I mean traditions are nice and all but I have no qualms about saying that the Torah is a fabrication so I don't know why I have to pretend like Muslim tradition holds more historical validity. Jerusalem is however mentioned as Solomon's temple (mosque) is mentioned, so in the very least it is hinted upon. Not saying it's the proper truth or anything, just that Jerusalem is referenced in the Quran, although they were probably more referencing the Noble Sanctuary itself.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:45
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My Imaginary GF posted:How do I know thats in Jerusalem? Hay guys I just found out that the Eastern Roman Empire is a total fakeout. Those fucks claim that their capital was Byzantium when that city clearly DOES NOT EXIST.
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Nov 28, 2014 14:37
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