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So we really are fighting the second civil war, good to know.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:45
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Don't be obtuse.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:47
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Everyone keeps saying Michael Brown robbed that store. Umm innocent until proven guilty much? Brown wasn't indicted yknow.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:48
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There's a lot of people dissecting the minutae of the evidence released to the grand jury but not too many focusing on the fact that the whole proceeding was a sham.
Neptr fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 17:48
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Neptr posted:There's a lot of people dissecting the minutae of the evidence released to the grand jury but not too many focusing on the fact that while proceeding was a sham. We know it's a sham, but it's a bit harder to prove that to people who accept it as justice served. It's easier to prove that evidence and testimony contradicts aspects of Wilson's story.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:51
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: This is a really stupid comparison. You can find a historical example for literally any point you want to make. The power of historical analysis is for explanatory purposes, not predictive. Too many hidden variables unaccounted for. As an example, protest in the colonies leading to revolution is a massive oversimplification. Basically you might want to find something a little more recent than loving 1700 if you want to make an intelligent point. It's not a subtle thing you are missing, the whole argument of comparing a country's founding revolution to property damage is really misguided. spacetoaster posted:That's a really good point and I like it. It's really not, why in the gently caress would you babble about the revolutionary war if you are trying to convince people protests can be effective.there's like a billion better examples.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:52
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Dazzling Addar posted:The way this discussion has taken its course is actually quite fascinating from a metacognitive perspective. People have become so lost in minutiae and conjecture that they have completely dissociated themselves from the important, concrete facts. Welcome to this entire forum, home of the slap-fight over a mis-quote & asserting opinion as fact because someone else did the same, but in a way you disagree with. Here, have hundreds of pages of bullshit that are worth reading through only for the coherent posts of, tops, 5 posters.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:55
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tsa posted:
Well, because people seem to forget that history/progress can be messy. America has done a pretty good job of whitewashing the founding fathers though.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:57
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sugar free jazz posted:Everyone keeps saying Michael Brown robbed that store. Umm innocent until proven guilty much? Brown wasn't indicted yknow. It's pretty much beyond question that Michael Brown stole some cigarillos from a store (based on video & the testimony of his friend), and he's not going to be tried for it because he's dead, so he'll never be proven guilty in the legal sense. I personally think that "robbery" is a ridiculously loaded characterisation of what would be more reasonably described as petty theft, but the point is that there's no reason to be circumspect about that particular event now.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:00
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You meet a conservative, do you A: Try to draw comparisons between the Ferguson and events they would be sympathetic to (perhaps tea party protests) OR B: Try to shoehorn in a 300 year old event. If you chose B you just might be a DD poster! Right wingers build narratives, most lefties scream about 'tone arguments' and make John Kerry look like a rhetorical genius.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:00
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Waco Panty Raid posted:So can I assume she took the opportunity to teach her son some lessons about how to be safe when going out like "after violently procuring cigarillos for your Marijuana consumption, please don't engage in fisticuffs with the police" or "when pointing a realistic looking toy gun at people in a park please don't make sudden movements towards said gun should the cops show up." That's a great motherfucking question. What's your opinion as to when black boys should be taught that they are police targets and that white America will look for reasons to justify their deaths? 7? Younger? Older?
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Nov 28, 2014 18:02
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sugar free jazz posted:Everyone keeps saying Michael Brown robbed that store. Umm innocent until proven guilty much? Brown wasn't indicted yknow. Neither was Wilson.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:03
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tsa posted:Basically you might want to find something a little more recent than loving 1700 if you want to make an intelligent point Off the top of my head the London Poll Tax Riots were pretty recent.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:04
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Kalman posted:Neither was Wilson. 
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Nov 28, 2014 18:04
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Valatar posted:I'm seriously at a loss about why John Crawford got shot down while doing literally nothing wrong, with video footage of the whole thing that could not be taken as him being in any way threatening to anybody, and hardly a whisper was made about it. He wasn't smoking pot, hadn't shoved around walmart employees on tape, didn't get in a fistfight with any cops, there's nothing for anyone to point at and say, 'Well he probably shared some responsibility...' Doesn't matter in the slightest. No matter who they kill, the racist crowd will dig up enough dirt on them to justify it. If there were protests for Crawford tomorrow by Tuesday we'd know all his dirty laundry. The preemptive smear campaign against Tamir Rice is already started, because he's way too young to have a discipline record in high-school like that "thug" Treyvon did.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:09
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SedanChair posted:That's a great motherfucking question. What's your opinion as to when black boys should be taught that they are police targets and that white America will look for reasons to justify their deaths? 7? Younger? Older?
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Nov 28, 2014 18:11
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unlimited shrimp posted:Millenials = narcissistic, spoiled brats who don't know the value of hard work If you're suggesting this isn't true, you're the dumbest motherfucker in this whole thread
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Nov 28, 2014 18:14
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Waco Panty Raid posted:whitey wants to see them dead.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:15
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Valatar posted:I'm seriously at a loss about why John Crawford got shot down while doing literally nothing wrong, with video footage of the whole thing that could not be taken as him being in any way threatening to anybody, and hardly a whisper was made about it. He wasn't smoking pot, hadn't shoved around walmart employees on tape, didn't get in a fistfight with any cops, there's nothing for anyone to point at and say, 'Well he probably shared some responsibility...' This is stupid. There were protests over Crawford, and every attempt to have a conversation about the situation with your average white person gets shut down immediately because "he had a gun and deserved to get shot". That's it. End of story. There's no way to gain traction there. gently caress, people are saying that about the 12-year old that just got killed. He had a gun, he deserved to be shot. We could use the guy in New York, but oh, that was just an accident, so instant dismissal. The only reason Brown gained any traction at all is because the people in charge in Ferguson and MO in general are all loving morons who don't know how not to make a situation worse and avoid attracting media scrutinty. NONE of these would go anywhere. Nothing WILL go anywhere. What you're asking for is a perfect victim of perfectly incompetent police, whose not only perfect but whom the police can't even make poo poo up about he's so perfect. Because people in this country believe that whenever a black person gets shot, he deserved it, and they will justify that as instantly as possible. You know why Brown got more traction? Because he was unarmed. He was fleeing or surrendering. Neither of these are instant justifications for the shooting. Which puts him leaps and abounds ahead of Crawford and Rice, neither of whom deserved to be shot but who most people will immediately discount "because they had a weapon". So if you've got some better ideas for victims, suggest them. But those two deserved it already in the minds of most of the people who hear they got shot, so they are hardly an improvement. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 18:19
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Lumpy the Cook posted:If you're suggesting this isn't true, you're the dumbest motherfucker in this whole thread 
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Nov 28, 2014 18:21
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Lumpy the Cook posted:If you're suggesting this isn't true, you're the dumbest motherfucker in this whole thread It certainly isn't true the way people who say it mean it. Technically, it's correct. But it's technically correct, probably even more correct, for the Baby Boomers too! Which is usually the comparison people are using for this.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:25
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The point is that the media is very effective at ad hom-ing the protesters so that nobody has to reckon with the issues being protested. "I'd love to discuss systemic racism with you, but the looters..."
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Nov 28, 2014 18:31
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: Besides the good points others have made, I think there's unfortunately a certain degree of ineptitude among the American left right now. The protests that have occurred here over the last couple decades have flopped tremendously, and I'm not just talking about OWS. The Iraq War protests also come to mind, as do anti-WTO protests and the like. It's kind of a shame - progressives need to learn how to protest again.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:35
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tsa posted:You meet a conservative, do you I definitely see parallels between the Boston Massacre and this - an incident where those who died weren't innocent but the event itself became a lightning rod / propaganda, through willing half-truths, for a bigger issue. I think it also shows how a trial could have been done, that would be satisfactory to both sides of the issue.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:35
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West Florissant is still considered a crime scene, and police haven't reopened it yet. There are lots of people with brooms and shovels waiting for the street to be opened to foot traffic to go start cleanup, but there's no telling when that'll happen. Could be today, could be next week. If anyone is interested in helping out, the One Ferguson group compiled all of the donation pages set up by local businesses that were damaged or destroyed. http://www.oneferguson.com/support-ferguson-business/ Natalie's Cakes has received $250k, Ferguson Market and Liquor approaching $23k, but nobody else has gone over $10k yet.
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Nov 28, 2014 18:42
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ActusRhesus posted:
Does a person actually have to be shot in the back to be "shot while fleeing?" The forensic evidence may show that they were hit only hit in the front, but that doesn't mean the cop missed a few times while they were running away. It's still unclear in this case whether Wilson was firing while Brown's back was turned isn't it?
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Nov 28, 2014 18:45
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Nov 28, 2014 18:47
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Bholder posted:Cool, here's a list of cases where anger made things better: tsa posted:Basically you might want to find something a little more recent than loving 1700 if you want to make an intelligent point. 1775–1783: The American Revolution establishes independence of the thirteen North American colonies from Great Britain, creating the republic of the United States of America. 1789: Regarded as one of the most influential of all socio-political revolutions, the French Revolution is associated with the downfall of the aristocracy. 1791–1804: The Haitian Revolution: A successful slave rebellion, led by Toussaint Louverture, establishes Haiti as the first free, black republic. 1795: In this year broke out several slave rebellions in entire the Caribbean, influenced by the Haitian Revolution: in Cuba, Jamaica (Second Maroon War), Dominica (Colihault Uprising), Saint Lucia (Bush War, so-called “Guerre des Bois”), Saint Vicent (Second Carib War), Grenada (Fedon Rebellion), Curaçao (led by Tula), Guyana (Demerara Rebellion) and Coro, Venezuela (led by José Leonardo Chirino). 1810–1821: The Mexican War of Independence, a revolution against Spanish colonialism. 1810: The Viceroy of the Río de la Plata Baltasar Hidalgo de Cisneros is deposed during the May Revolution. 1820–1824: The revolutionary war of independence in Peru led by José de San Martín. 1821–1829: The Greek War of Independence. 1848: The French Revolution of 1848 led to the creation of the French Second Republic. 1866–1868: The Meiji Restoration and modernization revolution in Japan. Samurai uprising leads to overthrow of shogunate and establishment of "modern" parliamentary, Western-style system. 1868: The Glorious Revolution in Spain deposes Queen Isabella II. 1910–1920: The Mexican Revolution overthrows the dictator Porfirio Díaz; seizure of power by the Institutional Revolutionary Party. 1910: The republican revolution in Portugal. 1916–1923: The Irish War of Independence, the period of nationalist rebellion, guerrilla warfare, political change and civil war which brought about the establishment of the independent nation, the Irish Free State. 1917: The February Revolution in Russia overthrows Tsar Nicholas II. 1923: The founding of the Republic of Turkey by overthrow of the Ottoman Empire and introduction of Atatürk's Reforms. 1927–1933: A rebellion led by Augusto César Sandino against the United States presence in Nicaragua. 1945: The August Revolution led by Ho Chi Minh and Vietminh declared the independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam from French rule. 1945–1949: The Indonesian National Revolution against Dutch after their independence from Japan. Led by Soekarno, Hatta, Tan Malaka, etc. with the Dutch led by Van Mook. 1947: India wins independence from Britain. 1954–1962: The Algerian War of Independence: an uprising against French colonialism. 1956–1959: The Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro removes the government of General Fulgencio Batista. 1961–1975: The Angolan War of Independence began as an uprising against forced cotton harvesting, and became a multi-faction struggle for control of Portugal's Overseas Province of Angola. 1962–1974: The leftist African Party for the Independence of Guinea and Cape Verde (PAIGC) wages a revolutionary war of independence in Portuguese Guinea. 1964–1975: The Mozambican Liberation Front (FRELIMO), formed in 1962, commenced a guerrilla war against Portuguese colonialism. Independence was granted on June 25, 1975. 1968: The May 1968 revolt [France]. 1979: The popular overthrow of the Somoza dictatorship by the Nicaraguan Revolution. 1979: Cambodia is liberated from the Khmer Rouge regime by the Vietnam-backed Kampuchean People's Revolutionary Party. 2010: Second Kyrgyz Revolution leads to the ousting of President Kurmanbek Bakiyev. 2010–2012: Arab Spring: The Tunisian revolution forces President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali to resign and flee the country, and sets free elections, in the Libyan civil war rebel forces gradually take control of the country, and kill the leader Muammar Gaddafi. Nah, violence never accomplished anything. Better to just go along peacefully until your betters decide to toss some scraps your way. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 18:51
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Perfectly Safe posted:It's pretty much beyond question that Michael Brown stole some cigarillos from a store (based on video & the testimony of his friend), and he's not going to be tried for it because he's dead, so he'll never be proven guilty in the legal sense. I don't see a guilty verdict and why should I trust his friend. Also videos can be deceiving. Innocent until proven guilty is what I say. Respect the rule of law assssssholes
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Nov 28, 2014 18:54
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Ah yes instead of actually imparting some wisdom from these tragedies on how to avoid lovely situations let's teach kids early on that they're "targets" regardless of how they act and whitey wants to see them dead. I'm sure that'll work out fine. I asked you a question though. Don't run away from it, answer me.
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Nov 28, 2014 19:07
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sugar free jazz posted:I don't see a guilty verdict and why should I trust his friend. Also videos can be deceiving. Innocent until proven guilty is what I say. Respect the rule of law assssssholes Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell. I gave the reason why "innocent until proven guilty" is an inappropriate standard in this case. You obviously don't have to personally agree with the view that Michael Brown stole some stuff if you don't feel that the assertion is sufficiently evidentially-supported. It is of no practical consequence, you see, because Michael Brown is dead.
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Nov 28, 2014 19:14
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: Because it's 2014, not 1700
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Nov 28, 2014 19:18
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sugar free jazz posted:I don't see a guilty verdict and why should I trust his friend. Also videos can be deceiving. Innocent until proven guilty is what I say. Respect the rule of law assssssholes. (*1) (*2) (*1) This D&D Rule Shall Not Apply to White People, Police Officers, and especially White Police Officers. Never White Police Officers. Ever. Read it again. (*2) Please note any mention of the robbery in the context of the situation and/or the suspect's characterization as a "good boy who would never hurt anyone" will be promptly met with  "That's racist!".
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Nov 28, 2014 19:18
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:1775–1783: The American Revolution establishes independence of the thirteen North American colonies from Great Britain, creating the republic of the United States of America. Got any recent examples from uhhh.... The first world? You are a loving retard lol.
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Nov 28, 2014 19:21
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"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""first world""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
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Nov 28, 2014 19:22
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SedanChair posted:"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""first world"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Are you seriously this dumb?
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Nov 28, 2014 19:23
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what does the first world have to do with America? e: sedan chair you speedy gently caress 
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Nov 28, 2014 19:23
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Perfectly Safe posted:Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell. I gave the reason why "innocent until proven guilty" is an inappropriate standard in this case. You obviously don't have to personally agree with the view that Michael Brown stole some stuff if you don't feel that the assertion is sufficiently evidentially-supported. It is of no practical consequence, you see, because Michael Brown is dead. Yeah funny how him being dead lowers the bar of guilt and innocence
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Nov 28, 2014 19:23
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Miltank posted:what does the first world have to do with America? Because we might be a country where armed violent insurrection like the Arab spring might not work? You loving idiot.
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Nov 28, 2014 19:24
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[in the gayest and most retarded typical D&D voice possible]: Why couldn't the Arab Spring work in America?
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Nov 28, 2014 19:28
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