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Jim Barris posted:In other words your belief is rooted in the benefits you reap from it and not your certainty of it's truthfulness? That's extraordinary. I don't think I've ever heard someone say something like that. Don't get me wrong, plenty of people believe things because its convenient, but I've never seen someone be so forthright about it. I do feel rather certain of it, because I have essentially shut off my ability to doubt it any further, as I found that nihilism was only hurting me and degrading me. I can think critically, but I do not succumb to sincere doubt like I used to. CommieGIR posted:Don't take this the wrong way, but being yourself is not evil and being yourself does not make you a sociopath. I am of the opinion that everyone who does not have some spiritual motivation to live as a good person lives as a sociopath; that is, they think it is OK to commit evil so long as there are no earthly consequences, and they think that the only utility of a good deed is its social benefits. I think almost everyone I encounter is a sociopath, including in this thread, not only because their behavior and words betray it, but because they have no logical basis for not being one. Only divine intervention can make a person live as a truly good person. The only "issue" I have is that I enjoy being religious and I was tired of feeling separated from it, and since restoring my religious belief I have felt much more fulfilled in my spirit. In short, it has worked, and I am eternally grateful for it. Nessus posted:How does this make you any different from prosperity gospel people, or those who mindlessly ape their faith on the street corner? I suppose you're not doing it to impress others (well unless that includes your posting) but does this not seem like an abuse of religion? If these positive benefits were to be withdrawn from you, would you stop believing? Prosperity gospel people preach earthly rewards for religion, when the rewards are primarily spiritual. It is true that the spiritual improvements will change your character and values to the extent you are likely to achieve more in this life, but because the world is corrupt, being a virtuous man can also be your earthly downfall, as embodied in Christ. In short, one does not become religious, or preach religion, because it is advantageous to his earthly circumstance, but because it is advantageous to him in a deep spiritual place which is more important than earthly circumstance. A Christian must be prepared to lose everything, like Job; his wealth, health, and family, and yet still remain true and thankful to God.
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Nov 29, 2014 21:38
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Kyrie eleison posted:I am of the opinion that everyone who does not have some spiritual motivation to live as a good person lives as a sociopath; that is, they think it is OK to commit evil so long as there are no earthly consequences, and they think that the only utility of a good deed is its social benefits. I think almost everyone I encounter is a sociopath, including in this thread, not only because their behavior and words betray it, but because they have no logical basis for not being one. Only divine intervention can make a person live as a truly good person. Alternately, has your Christian practice given you the power of telepathy in sufficient degree that you can read someone's heart and mind from their Internet posting? Is this what the Jesuits were about?
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Nov 29, 2014 21:42
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I really wanna know what evil it is apparently possible to commit that has no consequences. And teaching a religion, or lack of, that you don't like doesn't count.
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Nov 29, 2014 21:45
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I really wanna know what evil it is apparently possible to commit that has no consequences. jacking it
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Nov 29, 2014 21:45
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I really wanna know what evil it is apparently possible to commit that has no consequences. And teaching a religion, or lack of, that you don't like doesn't count. Alternately, they are engaging in behaviors which that religion proscribes but which aren't inherently evil - a bit like if Jews claimed that the consumption of pork on the part of Gentiles was proof that Man was wicked, as opposed to "well, the pig is forbidden to us, but not to the Gentiles, so whatever guys, enjoy your gross swine meat." e: I kind of wonder how this is reconciled with Adam and Eve, who did not commit any sins other than disobedience. Even Cain and Abel, their only bone of contention was that apparently God did not enjoy an offering of vegetables and instead enjoyed an offering of meat. (This would seem to demonstrate that God enjoys bloodshed.) Nessus fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 29, 2014 |
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Nov 29, 2014 21:52
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Nessus posted:I'm glad you've found pleasantness in your religion, but look at that first paragraph and then look at observed reality, which is that most people, while they are certainly less than virtuous and often pretty lazy, don't actually set out to steal, rob, etc. on a regular basis. Is it not possible that you have decided that everyone outside of your chosen circle is a sociopath, and that now you are looking for evidence to justify the decision you already made? I have found that in my discussions on morality with people that the vast majority of them are not interested in morality one bit, and are instead focused solely on improving their status in life in one way or another. They also admit to doing immoral things with no inkling of regret, as if they expected I was a comrade of theirs in evil. And yes, with their words, they reveal their immoral thought process, which does not seek to earnestly persuade, but rather seeks to gain position amongst bystanders. I have personally decided to give up on the idea of pursuing social recognition, as exemplified by my willingly joining the Catholic Church, one of the most maligned institutions today, but also the correct institution. Instead I promote the truth as I see it. Raskolnikov38 posted:I really wanna know what evil it is apparently possible to commit that has no consequences. And teaching a religion, or lack of, that you don't like doesn't count. You don't have much imagination, do you? Any evil deed that you can get away with. People love doing evil that they can get away with, and will not apologize for it, or acknowledge that it is evil, especially if it an institutional evil. Humanity is fallen, and only Christ can save you.
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Nov 29, 2014 21:54
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Kyrie eleison posted:I have found that in my discussions on morality with people that the vast majority of them are not interested in morality one bit, and are instead focused solely on improving their status in life in one way or another. They also admit to doing immoral things with no inkling of regret, as if they expected I was a comrade of theirs in evil. And yes, with their words, they reveal their immoral thought process, which does not seek to earnestly persuade, but rather seeks to gain position amongst bystanders. I have personally decided to give up on the idea of pursuing social recognition, as exemplified by my willingly joining the Catholic Church, one of the most maligned institutions today, but also the correct institution. Instead I promote the truth as I see it. But seriously though, I am sure you can recognize that theoretically one might hold an act that you consider immoral, to be moral, or of no consequence - it is neither moral nor immoral to pick your nose, for instance. This may be an error (on one of your parts) but it is not necessarily inconsistent. I suppose you're baiting out to see if people will quote that study about mistrust of atheists, though.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:01
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Kyrie eleison posted:I am of the opinion that everyone who does not have some spiritual motivation to live as a good person lives as a sociopath; that is, they think it is OK to commit evil so long as there are no earthly consequences, and they think that the only utility of a good deed is its social benefits. I think almost everyone I encounter is a sociopath, including in this thread, not only because their behavior and words betray it, but because they have no logical basis for not being one. Only divine intervention can make a person live as a truly good person. That's interesting. Do you believe Jews live as sociopaths, since they don't believe in hell? Jews are supposed to perform Mitzvot purely out of duty to HaShem and not because of any benefit or solace they provide. On a related note, Confucianism also proscribes rules of behavior. As I understand it, Confucians feel they have a duty to serve other humans that transcends their own interests. Consequently Confucian rituals venerate not gods but their human ancestors and the social bonds which perpetuate society. Would this in your view qualify as "spiritual motivation?"
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Nov 29, 2014 22:12
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Kyrie eleison posted:You don't have much imagination, do you? Any evil deed that you can get away with. People love doing evil that they can get away with, and will not apologize for it, or acknowledge that it is evil, especially if it an institutional evil. Ah I see, I assumed you were including the victims as part of the consequences. I take it you are a young earth creationist as well?
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Nov 29, 2014 22:14
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Kyrie eleison posted:I am of the opinion that everyone who does not have some spiritual motivation to live as a good person lives as a sociopath; that is, they think it is OK to commit evil so long as there are no earthly consequences, and they think that the only utility of a good deed is its social benefits. I think almost everyone I encounter is a sociopath, including in this thread, not only because their behavior and words betray it, but because they have no logical basis for not being one. Only divine intervention can make a person live as a truly good person. Ok, you can enjoy your religion if you like it, but the idea that people not sharing your religious viewpoints are sociopaths is quite....disturbing to say the least. The idea that morality is divinely inspired only is really kinda of disgusting. Humans can be plenty empathetic and morale without any divine inspiration, because we tend to enjoy feeling like we belong, and people who are immoral tend not to get along well with others. There are plenty of sociological reasoning for morality outside of divinity. Kyrie eleison posted:I have found that in my discussions on morality with people that the vast majority of them are not interested in morality one bit, and are instead focused solely on improving their status in life in one way or another. They also admit to doing immoral things with no inkling of regret, as if they expected I was a comrade of theirs in evil. And yes, with their words, they reveal their immoral thought process, which does not seek to earnestly persuade, but rather seeks to gain position amongst bystanders. I have personally decided to give up on the idea of pursuing social recognition, as exemplified by my willingly joining the Catholic Church, one of the most maligned institutions today, but also the correct institution. Instead I promote the truth as I see it.  You need real help if you in any way think this is true. Please talk to a councilor of your choice, religious or otherwise.(Seriously, at this point you are really trolling or you are just being daft and ignorant) CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Nov 29, 2014 |
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Nov 29, 2014 22:19
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Dilkington posted:That's interesting. Do you believe Jews live as sociopaths, since they don't believe in hell? Jews are supposed to perform Mitzvot purely out of duty to HaShem and not because of any benefit or solace they provide.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:22
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CommieGIR posted:(Seriously, at this point you are really trolling or you are just being daft and ignorant) Alternatively, Kyrie eleison is an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:46
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I really wanna know what evil it is apparently possible to commit that has no consequences. And teaching a religion, or lack of, that you don't like doesn't count. Being a homosexual. down with slavery posted:jacking it Also this.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:48
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ThirdPartyView posted:Alternatively, Kyrie eleison is an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic. Quite possible.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:50
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Basically just imagine Jack Chick except rabidly pro-Catholic instead of anti-Catholic and you'll get a pretty good idea of Kyrie's position.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:54
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Who What Now posted:Basically just imagine Jack Chick except rabidly pro-Catholic instead of anti-Catholic and you'll get a pretty good idea of Kyrie's position. I wonder if he draws cute little nonsensical comics too?
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Nov 29, 2014 22:58
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CommieGIR posted:I wonder if he draws cute little nonsensical comics too? He probably shares the same sentiments as "Lisa".
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Nov 29, 2014 23:02
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Nessus posted:What Would Jesus Post(tm) It can certainly be immoral to pick your nose in the improper circumstance. I do not accept any morality but God's morality. Dilkington posted:That's interesting. Do you believe Jews live as sociopaths, since they don't believe in hell? Jews are supposed to perform Mitzvot purely out of duty to HaShem and not because of any benefit or solace they provide. Fear of Hell is not my driving motivator. Hell is more some cold poo poo you say to someone who refuses the truth, to show the full extent of your disdain for their approach, a purest hatred, and as I said before, it originates with Isaiah, the Jew. You tell someone about Hell to let them know where they stand. Your Talmud says Jesus is boiling in excrement forever, so do not tell me you have no Hell. But I do believe there can be loyal Jews who, despite their rejection of Christ, do so mainly because they have accepted propaganda unquestioned (although this is itself a shame on them); or for those Jews who secretly, in their heart, love Jesus and believe him to be the Messiah, though they do not admit it to family out of fear, which I believe is a large portion of Jews (to me, Jewish life seems a lot about having to pretend you don't believe in Christ, and is therefore not too different than a lapsed Christian giving in to widespread atheism.) But what you describe, of doing good deeds for the sake of God and no other reason, sounds like true spirituality and the antithesis of sociopathic thinking, insofar as this is actual practice and not merely lip service of how things should be done. Practitioners of other religions are capable of true spirituality, as God respects their circumstance and knows their hearts, but their religions are ultimately shadows of Christianity.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:05
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Kyrie eleison posted:I do not accept any morality but God's morality. Soooooo.... Worldwide genocidal floods, sending bears to kill children, and advocating slavery? Cool morality.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:But I do believe there can be loyal Jews who, despite their rejection of Christ, do so mainly because they have accepted propaganda unquestioned (although this is itself a shame on them); or for those Jews who secretly, in their heart, love Jesus and believe him to be the Messiah, though they do not admit it to family out of fear, which I believe is a large portion of Jews (to me, Jewish life seems a lot about having to pretend you don't believe in Christ, and is therefore not too different than a lapsed Christian giving in to widespread atheism.) Believe me, Jewish people know about Jesus. Largely by the behavior of his fans, which has historically been decidedly mixed vis a vis the Jews. I suppose if by "believe in Christ" you mean "they believe there are these people who have a propensity to oppress and kill us, who we live amongst, and who believe in a guy called Christ who was allegedly one of us back before the Temple fell". Even now, where it's gauche for Christians to violently abuse Jews for the most part, there's still a certain... lack of respect. If, over literally several thousand years, the Jews should at times become bitter for the followers of an ancient Jew who take joy in the oppression of actual Jews in present time, this would seem hardly surprising. It's like oppression with a leavening of irony that would not be present if the dominant faith was Jupiter-worship.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:21
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Nessus posted:Ah, so this is the section to rile up the Jews, eh? This is a thread about Jesus Christ. I will do my best to be welcoming to those who believe Jesus deserved his crucifixion. The Old Testament is full of genocide and outright condemnation of other religions in the territory. I can also observe the present day treatment of resident aliens in the land called Israel. Why do you criticize us, as if we were the only people to want religious cohesion in our land? Take the plank out of your own eye.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:37
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I'm Baha'i op.quote:Ye are all leaves of one tree and the fruits of one branch
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Nov 29, 2014 23:44
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Kyrie eleison posted:I do feel rather certain of it, because I have essentially shut off my ability to doubt it any further, as I found that nihilism was only hurting me and degrading me. I can think critically, but I do not succumb to sincere doubt like I used to. However I take issue with your second point. The fact that you believe that a secular persons cannot formulate a code of ethics without relating it back to their own benefit is sort of telling, what it tells me is that YOU were unable to accomplish that and the misery it brought you only found succor in Christ. You are wrong to assume that the same is true for others.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:44
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is a thread about Jesus Christ. I will do my best to be welcoming to those who believe Jesus deserved his crucifixion. I certainly won't defend Zionism, but Zionism is an idea that occurred in the late 19th century. Even with some generous rounding around the edges, the Jews of Europe lived underneath Christian dominion for over a thousand years. They were treated, for the most part, quite poorly. If Roman Catholics were an oppressed minority under the tyranny of militant Unitarianism, do you think you would perhaps not have the occasional bit of bitching about the heretic in your accumulated writings? Maybe a smidge here and there of defining yourself in an oppositional form? Or should the Jews instead be thankful that the worshipers of a loving God did not wholly wipe them out, and thank them by converting?
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Nov 29, 2014 23:47
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is a thread about Jesus Christ. I will do my best to be welcoming to those who believe Jesus deserved his crucifixion. I should hope you were welcoming to other Christians.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:52
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Who What Now posted:I should hope you were welcoming to other Christians. The fact that God the Father was completely all knowing and saw all of time from an external viewpoint and both a. permitted this to be set up in exactly this way and b. went down to participate in this system He Himself created, is not to be questioned; nor is the parallel between this sequence of events and a parent breaking your leg and then telling you how much of a pain in the rear end you are, and how you're so lucky to have someone like him, who will drive you to the emergency room. One might think that for a being whom it is so emphasized was completely and totally divine (as well as human, simultaneously), the endurance of the extremely large but finite pool of human sin in suffering form would represent a notable if minor effort, but one would probably then be damned to Hell.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:58
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Nessus posted:Do you believe that the behavior of the current Israeli government retroactively justifies all the pogroms and so forth in medieval Europe? Or did their purported Christ-killing and refusal to convert adequately justify those violent acts? You aren't comprehending what I'm saying. I'm saying that you are being a hypocrite when you condemn Christians for not being super enthusiastic about having Jews in their lands, because the Jews are no different when it comes to other religions in their lands. We should not pretend any side is wholly innocent of the crimes in question. For what it's worth, I support Israel.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:59
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Kyrie eleison posted:I'm saying that you are being a hypocrite when you condemn Christians for not being super enthusiastic about having Jews in their lands, because the Jews are no different when it comes to other religions in their lands. Tu quoque is a logical fallacy, FYI; you're welcome. 
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Nov 30, 2014 00:01
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Kyrie eleison posted:For what it's worth, I support Israel. 
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Nov 30, 2014 00:02
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Kyrie eleison posted:You aren't comprehending what I'm saying. I'm saying that you are being a hypocrite when you condemn Christians for not being super enthusiastic about having Jews in their lands, because the Jews are no different when it comes to other religions in their lands. We should not pretend any side is wholly innocent of the crimes in question. I would say the difference is that in Israel (uniquely in the last several thousand years) the Jews are the ones in charge, with the army and the police and so forth, while in medieval Europe they were instead at the mercy of the Christians. What you seem to be saying is: "The strong abuse the weak, and that's just the way of things." However, you seemed to be making the case that Jews are essentially Christians in denial, and perhaps that they deserve what they got for saying cruel things about Jesus here and there in their works.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:04
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Not only do they mock his God, he's still mad at them for killing Jesus.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Not only do they mock his God, he's still mad at them for killing Jesus.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:09
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Nessus posted:But if Jesus hadn't died on the cross he'd be going to Hell, wouldn't he? Logically speaking, Pilate, Judas and all those other nameless Jews should be given a vote of thanks and prayed for, because for once feckless cruelty and stupidity brought about a wonderful thing instead of the usual dreary horror. Pilate was just a victim of circumstance.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:09
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Nessus posted:Why would you support Israel? It's a nest of unbelievers who mock your God, apparently. Perhaps you might prefer them to the Arabs purely on the basis that they make it easier to visit Jerusalem, but it seems you should instead be hoping for a Crusade to bring that area under the dominion of a Christian (preferably Roman Catholic!) administration. Because I think it is better than diaspora. I think the Jews deserve a homeland, and that it is most fitting for their religion that it be the land known as Israel, as that land is essential to their faith. I would definitely rather that it be in Jewish hands than Islamic hands. I don't think Jews deserve violence because of things they wrote about Christians while under Christian domination. I am looking for something that is fair and works out best for everybody.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:13
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Kyrie eleison posted:Because I think it is better than diaspora. I think the Jews deserve a homeland, and that it is most fitting for their religion that it be the land known as Israel, as that land is essential to their faith. I would definitely rather that it be in Jewish hands than Islamic hands. So...what, the Palestinians don't deserve a homeland? Oh, right, religion has priority. You need help. Kyrie eleison posted:I don't think Jews deserve violence because of things they wrote about Christians while under Christian domination. I am looking for something that is fair and works out best for everybody. You cannot advocate for a state that practices apartheid and oppressive colonialism and say you are looking for something 'fair'
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Nov 30, 2014 00:14
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Nessus posted:But if Jesus hadn't died on the cross he'd be going to Hell, wouldn't he? Logically speaking, Pilate, Judas and all those other nameless Jews should be given a vote of thanks and prayed for, because for once feckless cruelty and stupidity brought about a wonderful thing instead of the usual dreary horror. I did read one book where Judas was revealed to be Jesus' closest disciple whom he personally asked to make the ultimate sacrifice by betraying him, making Judas the most important and tragic of the disciples. It was a fictional story and not an actual historical view of the bible or anything, but it was still very interesting. A shame that I can't remember the title. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 00:19
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CommieGIR posted:So...what, the Palestinians don't deserve a homeland? While I suppose the Catholics would not necessarily be opposed fundamentally to the existence of Israel or some successor state in the same area that contains the current population, both Jew and Arab, it would seem the most consistent thing would be to pray for peace, equality, and the conversion of the Jews (and Muslims beside). Though I gather that kind of fell out of fashion around the middle of the 20th century for some reason.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:20
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Who What Now posted:I did read one book where Judas was revealed to be Jesus' closest disciple whom he personally asked to make the ultimate sacrifice by betraying him, This happens in the Gnostic gospel of Judas, and is incorporated into The Last Temptation of Christ. Nessus posted:Well, the difference here is probably that right-wing sorts in America celebrate Israel ridiculously, due to a combination of reasons, non-trivial among them being "aggressive lobbying" and "the need for Israel to exist, so it can be destroyed in the fulfillment of the prophecy, so Jesus can come back and the world can end, ideally in my lifetime please." Therefore this ideological plank seems rooted in very modern ideas - that of nationality for one - AND in the theological hallucinations of a Protestant sect! The idea of Israel as being "necessary for prophecy" is something I have never heard from any Israel supporter, although it's often mentioned by critics, so I think it's a straw man. It sounds like a particularly ridiculous belief. I think the main reason conservative people like Israel is that it separates people into cohesive, traditionalist groups.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:24
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Kyrie eleison posted:The idea of Israel as being "necessary for prophecy" is something I have never heard from any Israel supporter, although it's often mentioned by critics, so I think it's a straw man. It sounds like a particularly ridiculous belief. I think the main reason conservative people like Israel is that it separates people into cohesive, traditionalist groups. As for cohesive traditionalist groups, Israelis themselves are hardly anything resembling homogenous. That said, of course, it's unlikely Americans care about that, and instead like being able to go "OK, there's a place where Jews go - here!"
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Nov 30, 2014 00:29
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Kyrie eleison posted:The idea of Israel as being "necessary for prophecy" is something I have never heard from any Israel supporter, although it's often mentioned by critics, so I think it's a straw man. It sounds like a particularly ridiculous belief. I think the main reason conservative people like Israel is that it separates people into cohesive, traditionalist groups. Jewish restoration is not a straw man, but I don't doubt you have never heard an argument for it because it is a distinctly protestant/evangelical view. Christian doctrines of Jewish esteem and restoration were developed by the middle of the 19th century in Britain predating Jewish Zionism by a good deal. e:mainstream jewish zionism anyway. I don't know much about the origins of jewish zionism. Miltank fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 00:57
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