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Voted Worst Mom posted:When was bleach truly unenjoyable, anyways? I've never not enjoyed bleach, although there was a lot of irrelevant stuff that happened and a lot of non-sequiturs. I think bleach at its lowest was either the beginning of hueco mundo or the fullbringer arc, but even then it was still enjoyable; it just seemed like the story wasn't progressing. The save rukia arc was really really good but the other arcs were not bad, IMO. Second half of Hueco Mundo and the majority of the Fake Karakura town arc. The former because it was boring and the latter because it was largely padding and stalling and the story could not progress while focus was on it. Although it did have some cool fights. Deicide also suffered from a lot of stalling even if Don Kanonji showed up to be the best. Those 3 arcs one after another kinda soured me on Bleach entirely even though I did keep reading it, I just sort of stopped paying attention. Unless the thread says something cool happened though.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:43
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Voted Worst Mom posted:When was bleach truly unenjoyable, anyways? I've never not enjoyed bleach, although there was a lot of irrelevant stuff that happened and a lot of non-sequiturs. I think bleach at its lowest was either the beginning of hueco mundo or the fullbringer arc, but even then it was still enjoyable; it just seemed like the story wasn't progressing. The save rukia arc was really really good but the other arcs were not bad, IMO. a lot of hueco mundo was pretty annoying. they had filler espada that offered nothing to the story except they got brought back I guess for this recent arc.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:52
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Heuco Mundo I felt was fine when the Espada were doing stuff, otherwise I would agree it was kind of boring for the most part.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:54
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I think Hueco Mundo was good in the beginning, but it got very repetitive very fast. Plus, I never really felt the rivarly between Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It felt odd how it went "Grimmjow is down. Well, now he is your rival Ichigo!"
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Nov 29, 2014 23:54
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Rynder posted:I can only assume that while this is happening the real world has become a hellscape where regular old hollows are eating everyone. It annoys me that there is no mortal peril in this drat series. Nothing of consequence to the actual life Ichigo leads (except maybe the aizen key thing and bookmark dude.) The only thing that matters is afterlife pre-modern japan Lamebot fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 00:10
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Voted Worst Mom posted:When was bleach truly unenjoyable, anyways? "Kurosaki-kun!" edit: The Heart.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:16
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Lamebot posted:It annoys me that there is no mortal peril in this drat series. Nothing of consequence to the actual life Ichigo leads (except maybe the aizen key thing and bookmark dude.) The only thing that matters is afterlife pre-modern japan There was in the beginning. Covok posted:I think Hueco Mundo was good in the beginning, but it got very repetitive very fast. Plus, I never really felt the rivarly between Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It felt odd how it went "Grimmjow is down. Well, now he is your rival Ichigo!" It was good then it became some weird sort of poor rehash of the Soul Society Arc and it took twice as long to come to the conclusion.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:25
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I guess I got a freebie from the Karakura/Hecto arcs as I came in about the time Gin did his betrayal all those years ago. I read from the first chapter to there in a little over a week, so I never noticed the pacing. I sped through it all to almost read it 2 or 3 more times. Fullbring arc? Talk about pacing problems. Seemed too easy to go "He isn't the main big bad, we are all bad and I am actually the big bad guy, I just had him slash me to make me believe my own plan!" This arc started with a bang with stealing of Bankais and Yama getting destroyed in epic fashion...now I think I'm running into the pacing and lack of interest you guys were seeing back then. I think it is the abundance of retcon-powered characters. Every time a baddy goes down I'm waiting for the reversal: - oh that's not really Bach but this other dudes twin, he just looked, acted, and had Bach's memories - I can make anything I dream of, you beat me so I made a 2nd me which exponentially increases my powers - this guy was dead, but now he is a zombie - yea well I injected him with a chemical that makes it Groundhog Day if he tries to kill me - oh yea these other guys were dead and your zombies but now they are my zombies! - you can't attack me because I have 2 tongues and he wind - yea well you really aren't at the Kings palace its (points) there - ha?! You think you can take down MY squad zero in 4 pages? Abracadabra back to life - you can't hit me because I can make an internal power on the outside - now it's going to take you over - no it's not, I learned this move from Ikkaku
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Nov 30, 2014 00:25
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Voted Worst Mom posted:When was bleach truly unenjoyable, anyways? When Aizen went out with a giant anticlimax after all that buildup.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:25
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Covok posted:I think Hueco Mundo was good in the beginning, but it got very repetitive very fast. Plus, I never really felt the rivarly between Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It felt odd how it went "Grimmjow is down. Well, now he is your rival Ichigo!" Actually I thought Ulquiorra worked better as a rival than Grimmjow, and it still feels like Kubo meant to do more with him (and given Bleach, he may yet reappear through some bullshit). Ulq was basically given as the archetype for the humanoid arrancar, physically mirrored Ichigo, and ultimately had his own transformation like hollow Ichigo. His relation to Orihime was also supposed to be a parallel to Ichigo's, and he was the Byakuya of the hollow society arc, whereas Grimmjow was just a slightly more competent Renji. If Kubo had dumped a lot of the Hueco Mundo arc and given more time to Ulquiorra it would have been a lot stronger. Basically Bleach would just be better if its enemy cast was half the size so that more time could be spent on each one to give us a reason to have any investment in them. chumbler fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 00:34
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hagie posted:- no it's not, I learned this move from Ikkaku I laughed at this, but Ikkaku would probably just rip is own arm off at the shoulder. And then grab it with his other arm and beat Ywach to death with it.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:57
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chumbler posted:Actually I thought Ulquiorra worked better as a rival than Grimmjow, and it still feels like Kubo meant to do more with him (and given Bleach, he may yet reappear through some bullshit). Ulq was basically given as the archetype for the humanoid arrancar, physically mirrored Ichigo, and ultimately had his own transformation like hollow Ichigo. His relation to Orihime was also supposed to be a parallel to Ichigo's, and he was the Byakuya of the hollow society arc, whereas Grimmjow was just a slightly more competent Renji. If Kubo had dumped a lot of the Hueco Mundo arc and given more time to Ulquiorra it would have been a lot stronger. Grimmjow was one of the like 3 good fights in Hueco Mundo though. Edit: Also Bleach would be much better if it's entire cast, not just the enemies, was split in half. The pacing would improve dramatically at least.
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Nov 30, 2014 01:09
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I liked the Hueco Mundo stuff. I could have done without the entire Fullbringer arc, however.
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Nov 30, 2014 01:41
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Parrotine posted:I dunno, I think Kubo's done enough to turn this series around to a beautiful mess so long as he doesn't pull Naruto levels of stupid. But hopefully Bleach will end on a good arc and a great finish. It's looking pretty good so far.
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Nov 30, 2014 01:43
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Advice posted:I laughed at this, but Ikkaku would probably just rip is own arm off at the shoulder. And then grab it with his other arm and beat Ywach to death with it. It was just something like something we had already seen, just doing something else
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Nov 30, 2014 01:43
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chumbler posted:Basically Bleach would just be better if its enemy cast was half the size so that more time could be spent on each one to give us a reason to have any investment in them. This times a million. Someone joked earlier that Kubo writes new characters when he's bored, but it's kind of true. He has let the cast get waay to bloated. The pacing problems are mostly the series trying to take time to give everyone a good fight. If he kept to a smaller, core cast of characters, the series would move fast and some characters would be less useless.
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Nov 30, 2014 01:47
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Covok posted:This times a million. Someone joked earlier that Kubo writes new characters when he's bored, but it's kind of true. He has let the cast get waay to bloated. The pacing problems are mostly the series trying to take time to give everyone a good fight. If he kept to a smaller, core cast of characters, the series would move fast and some characters would be less useless. I'm pretty sure Kubo has stated creating new characters is how he deals with writer's block but he has always tried to narrow down the core cast of characters, God bless him, but he never sticks with it.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:51
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Maybe he'd have better luck if he had the pull to make them stay dead. I still think Oda caught one of the SJ editors stuffing a dead body into the trunk of his car, and that's why Ace hasn't come back as a cyborg.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:59
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Dude can't even leave the fullbringers in the ground, and no one was exactly clamoring for their triumphant return. I am actually kind of eager for it now though, if only because their inevitable last page dramatic entrance/rescue is going to fall so drat flat that I'll probably giggle for hours.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:00
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I legit did not even remember whether they were actually dead at the end of their arc. The problem with an ever-expanding cast is that nobody can consistently generate interesting characters forever. Dude's having a hard time keeping up. For me, the central question of Bleach is, 'what is the Spirit King, and why does it inspire shopkeeper guy to sacrifice so much to preserve it, while simultaneously provoking such revulsion from Aizen that he'd go that far to destroy it?' There are other questions, but they're boring. Why did Quincy Archer turn traitor? Nobody cares. There are exactly two possible answers, and we've seen both of them many time before. Hell, we've seen both of them before in this series. In conclusion Bleach was last engaging when Kenpachi fought Unohana. Rangpur fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 03:06
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Rangpur posted:Maybe he'd have better luck if he had the pull to make them stay dead. Yes, i'm sure it's the editors fault Kubo cannot keep himself from having forgotten characters become relevant again for the span of 3 chapters then immediately forgotten once more.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:12
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No, that's because he's not very good at managing a large cast. I'm referring more to 'just kidding!' deaths like Hitsugaya, Byakuya, Renji, Renji, Kenpachi and Renji.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:22
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Rangpur posted:No, that's because he's not very good at managing a large cast. I'm referring more to 'just kidding!' deaths like Hitsugaya, Byakuya, Renji, Renji, Kenpachi and Renji. as far as I can understand Hitsugaya is 100% dead right now, the same as Rose and Kensei and is now some loving weird zombie soul reaper thing. Which sucks because Kensei was actually a neat dude because he was 100% all business and it was a super contrast to all the other Visored who acted like they were loving around.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:28
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Rangpur posted:No, that's because he's not very good at managing a large cast. I'm referring more to 'just kidding!' deaths like Hitsugaya, Byakuya, Renji, Renji, Kenpachi and Renji. I honestly don't remember much of those. The only one that immediately comes to mind is Hiyori's fake death and whatever's going on with Hitsugaya at the moment. Oh wait yeah, As Nodt should definitely have killed Byakuya. Would have been a good end. But I find his mismanagement of minor characters is more of a problem than his inability to kill characters off. He seems to hate characters fade into irrelevancy. I mean, he brought back Ganju for some reason.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:29
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Yeah, on his next manga, he needs to learn that sometimes you just got to make due with less and cut the fat if you want a good story. Honestly, adding in so many characters wouldn't be such a problem if he wasn't so obsessed with making them matter all the time. One Piece has a gigantic cast, but they leave once their stories are over and maybe show up once or twice again if they were interesting.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:34
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Fullbringer arc was easily the low point of the series, its the only time I ever quit reading. Even going back and re-reading them as whole the pace of the chapters when then Shinigami show up is glacial. It's even more annoying due to the fact that it seems to have had no lasting relevance to the series. Basically its the Skypiea arc of Bleach.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:39
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Tonfa posted:When Aizen went out with a giant anticlimax after all that buildup. This right here This was the giant 'gently caress you' that Kubo pulled on his readers, and the final nail in the coffin for many readers All of those fights prior felt like they had no real weight to it, because we knew that poo poo wasn't getting real until Ichigo showed up. And then it was finished. Just like that. Ugh, still gets me upset after all those years 
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Nov 30, 2014 03:47
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DeadBonesBrook posted:Basically its the Skypiea arc of Bleach. That implies some great redeeming features like Enel and the story of Norland and losing the Going Merry (which then lead to Franky.).
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Nov 30, 2014 04:48
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Rigged Death Trap posted:That implies some great redeeming features like Enel and the story of Norland and losing the Going Merry (which then lead to Franky.). Well, we got loving BORING out of it, I guess? Talking about this made me look at our current thread title and start giggling at it again 
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Nov 30, 2014 04:50
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Parrotine posted:This right here The hell are you talking about? Ichigo vs Aizen was awesome. It was hilarious seeing Aizen constantly being taken down a peg for pretty much the first time (I guess the actual first would be Yama's not-suicide kido).
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Nov 30, 2014 08:35
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I still don't understand a loving word of the fullbring arc. I guess Chad and Orihime's powers are fullbrings? I thought their powers appeared because they were close to the hogie and cursed how they couldn't help Ichigo so it bestowed them with powers. What the gently caress was the temporary shinigami dude again? What's the deal with Ichigo getting his power back and does that mean for his demon-hollow form and his merged Zangetsu form? It didn't make a loving lick of sense beginning to end. I still don't know what Ichigo is. His quincy power pretended to be a zanpaktou I guess? I thought it was retarded that they revealed the zanpaktous as these things the swordsmith rear end in a top hat just gives you; I figured it was like part of being able to become a shinigami period. Like, if you're born with Shinigami powers you have a second soul inside your own and that's your loving sword. But I guess rapbro swordsmith dude just sends them down and hands them out to people  I'm probably mis-remembering a lot of poo poo but Bleach is a mess.
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Nov 30, 2014 22:25
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The fullbringer arc would have been a lot better if it had only been book guy and ramen Aizen. Book guy's power was neat and the whole thing with him inserting himself into people's memories of the past and the whole "Who can be trusted" thing was a genuinely cool (if not particularly original) setup for an arc, but it just kind of fizzled into generally pretty weak pair battles like usual, but that's kind of expected of shounen so whatever. The story arcs generally being focused around "Here's another way soul society hosed up" is also a consistent trend I like, but it turning out to only be ramen Aizen who was part of that weakened it. I should probably not try to think about how Bleach could be better, because there's not enough time in the day for that.
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Nov 30, 2014 22:41
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Fabricated posted:I still don't understand a loving word of the fullbring arc. Chad's power is a Fullbring, we've never been given the skinny on how his parents survived a hollow attack, but yeah. This is part of why half of Chad's powers up to that point were always hollow related, Orihime is not. No one really knows if her power falls under any particular classification, but she seems to be something of an anomaly as far as all of the known powers go. Fabricated posted:What the gently caress was the temporary shinigami dude again? What's the deal with Ichigo getting his power back and does that mean for his demon-hollow form and his merged Zangetsu form? Ginjo's a human being with soul reapers powers much like Ichigo. He was the only other Substitute Soul Reaper besides Ichigo and they both share a lot of silly similarities like that. Ichigo got his power back from several Soul Society captains, friends, whatever, pooling their energy into Ichigo to reawaken his powers, much like what Rukia did at the start of the series. Ichigo is literally part hollow so chances are his hollow form is still a thing, but the merged Zangetsu was a product of his Quincy powers, Soul Reaper powers, and hollow powers all mixing into one big fuckoff mode to beat Aizen. Fabricated posted:It didn't make a loving lick of sense beginning to end. I still don't know what Ichigo is. His quincy power pretended to be a zanpaktou I guess? I thought it was retarded that they revealed the zanpaktous as these things the swordsmith rear end in a top hat just gives you; I figured it was like part of being able to become a shinigami period. Ichigo is the child of a Quncy and a Soul Reaper, his DNA is mixed with a hollow's because of White. This is part of the reason why he's also a Visored and since his mother and father had a profession out of fighting Hollows he was also entitled to the power of a Fullbringer. All Quincy's derive their powers from Yhwach and so does Ichigo technically as well. This is why Fake-Zangetsu manifested in Ichigo's power the way it did. Ichigo instinctively channeled Quincy powers at certain points and his Zanapkuto powers at others. Nimaiya does not make specific zanpakuto, he makes the basic forms of them then the zanpakuto's power and identity are all decide by the wielders power. This is why some zanapkuto are generic and others take on specific forms. There I have explained the Bleach story and even then I'm sure I still missed some stuff here and there.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:37
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Unpopular opinion: the Fullbring arc was rad as hell and while the pacing was atrocious, it was a fun little romp outside of Soul Society for a change (though Kubo couldn't resist having the captains come in and save the day, which was lame as gently caress). DBB equated it to the Skypiea arc in One Piece, which is also my favorite arc there. Maybe my brain doesn't work. Okay, so Fullbringer 101, reconstructed from my memory: -Human women who get attacked by hollows have some of their essence inside them forever or something because of how hollows work. If those women give birth later, they can give semi-hollow powers to their offspring. Once activated, this power allows them to communicate with the "souls" of inanimate objects and make "contracts" with them. Basically this is like convincing water to float around or convincing the floor to shoot you off of it so you can run/jump better. This SORT of makes sense with the whole "everything is spiritons" thing that is loosely established but I think that might have just been in Soul Society so who knows. It's sort of cool. Chad and Orihime are revealed to be Fullbringers who had their power drawn out by the hoagie which actually makes more sense than "an inanimate wish ball made Orihime's hairpin have complicated and unique personalities and bestowed arbitrary powers onto it for no reason". -Objects you have a strong affinity with can be Fullbrung even harder to change their shape and form weapons or activate magic powers. gently caress YOUR SKIN CHAD YOU SHOULD HAVE FULLBROUGHT THE COIN -Ginjo was formerly a shinigami representative like Ichigo, but he had a falling out and now works with a group of Fullbringers. Fullbringer power is weird in that you can also absorb powers from each other and trade them around like pogs. This particular Pog Collector's Group knows about Ichigo for (some reason) and wants to tap into his insane power to amplify their own which they know will work for (some reason). They trick Ichigo, get him to train his power, and take it from him. Then the captains show up and everybody pairs off into little groups. Ichigo gets his shinigami powers back except a little different because everybody from SS put their power into a magic macguffin and stabbed him with it. They were planning this but didn't tell him for (some reason). -Further solidifying his position as a bad Aizen clone, Ginjo reveals he did all this as a response to how evil Soul Society and particularly Ukitake is and is amazed when Ichigo sides with them anyway. -Everybody dies except gets to keep their bodies and presumably powers when to go to the Next Dimension for (some reason) and will play some role this arc between useless filler and totally useless filler. Whatever, I liked the arc, I liked the little interactions with their powers (PSP Kid's explanation about "promises" they made with each other) which I wish had been established further but alas this is Bleach where potentially interesting plot points fall to the wayside in favor of new outfits. I liked Ginjo, especially Final Form Bone Lord Ginjo, I liked his totally impractical sword with the handle in the middle of the blade, and gently caress it I liked the twist. Everybody expected Ginjo to get stabbed and be working for Tsukishima but I didn't expect him to have been planning this from the beginning. (Where have we heard that before?) All hail Ramen Aizen it was better than loving Deicide.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:39
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Fullbring ending was p cool because we got Ikkaku literally flexing a dislocated shoulder back into place, and the best fist fight too. Ikakku was pretty  during that arc.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:46
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I liked how the power was literally 'I am a self insert fanfiction character'. That was clever.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:47
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The Fullbring arc was worth it because all of the Fullbring characters had cool powers except Giriko who gave us "loving boring." so it was worth it and Ikakku literally fist fought some kid just tanking his hits. Byakuya shot a senbonzakura cannon through Tsukishima, Riruka was cool, and Rukia got a new cool haircut.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:56
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I have a feeling that the Fullbring arc came about to add to the puzzle piece to the end of this. Like once Ichigo has exhausted all other forms of his power, this is his trump card to end it all.
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Dec 1, 2014 00:02
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hagie posted:I have a feeling that the Fullbring arc came about to add to the puzzle piece to the end of this. Like once Ichigo has exhausted all other forms of his power, this is his trump card to end it all. I think that the Fullbringers that are in Soul Society right now are going to play some special part in out-bullshitting Haschwalth's balance ability. It really seemed like fullbrings that do crazy reality manipulations like Tsukishima's Book of the End don't actually care about power differences. Even though Byakuya was far far more powerful than him by any metric, the past insertion still worked on both him and his zanpakuto. Giriko's Time Tells no Lies is absurdly strong, since anything that breaks his set rules just gets eaten by time itself. Of course, he was a complete idiot and just used it to make himself as strong as he could imagine and Kenpachi just killed the poo poo out of him.
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Dec 1, 2014 00:30
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Orihimes power is definitely a stand.
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