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nopantsjack posted:How come Christians don't believe in reincarnation, are there any sects that do? Any explanation beyond that its not in the bible? I guess I mean how does the doctrine explain souls and the like without it? 1.) Most sects see it as clashing with the idea of Christ being fully God and fully man, as well as the Christian idea of Last Judgement. 2.) If you accept the idea of an ultimate reality, God can literally do anything it wants because it is God. 3.) Trinitarians would say that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all God in three consubstantial persons. Worshiping Jesus is worshiping God, but worshiping Jesus is not the same as worshiping the Father or the Holy Spirit. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 00:33
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Can God auto-fellate himself? If he did, would he be gay?
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Dec 2, 2014 00:36
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SedanChair posted:I think you're going to have to blame most Christians for that then, not flippant atheists. Their god is a petty tyrant, however nice and kind yours might be. If you read the words attributed to Jesus, both in the canonical gospels and in other early writings, from the perspective of him being divine, it's very clear that he has no interest in making believing in him easy or trumpeting his power. So to that extent, complaints about how the Resurrection is tenuous (and it's much more tenuous given that the first witness was Mary Magdalene) are a bit worthless because of course it would be. Jesus, assuming his divinity, wants people to come to him through thought and faith, not through demonstrations of divine potency.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:37
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Negative Entropy posted:Can God auto-fellate himself? If he did, would he be gay?
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Dec 2, 2014 00:37
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Never let your children know directly that you exist. Just leave them in the nursery with a bunch of conflicting stories about what you expect from them and what the right thing to do is, then one day when they're grown just show up and bam! start beating the poo poo out of them for getting your name wrong and all their other transgressions.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:40
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Nessus posted:God is inside me right now, apparently, and this probably extends to the balls, so I suppose in that sense, yes. However, God also encompasses all things, which means he's probably bi and gender-queer. Jesus joins Oedipus in the pantheon of men who cucked their own dads.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:40
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Effectronica posted:Jesus, assuming his divinity, wants people to come to him through thought and faith, not through demonstrations of divine potency. Believing in something without evidence is behind a lot of terrible real world problems, such as racism and sexism. Why are we to consider it a virtue in this instance?
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Dec 2, 2014 00:41
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SedanChair posted:Jesus joins Oedipus in the pantheon of men who cucked their own dads. Isn't this orthodox Christian doctrine even without adding the pantheism bit about god-is-everything? He impregnated His mom with Himself
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Dec 2, 2014 00:42
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Torka posted:Believing in something without evidence is behind a lot of terrible real world problems, such as racism and sexism. Why are we to consider it a virtue in this instance? Who says it's a virtue?
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Dec 2, 2014 00:42
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I don't think Oedipus cucked his dad, seeing as his dad was dead.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:42
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Nessus posted:You could probably make a coherent case that the Dalai Lama's entire career in the West has been literally this, albeit in a gentle and friendly manner, and capping it with a formal statement that he will opt not to reincarnate as another Dalai Lama after this life ends means there can't be, conveniently, a new Dalai Lama that happens to support the Chinese government in all matters. I feel like this is a dodge. It doesn't matter how we feel about it if none of its true. I think pope Francis really embodies this. Yeah he's nice and all, and I'm glad the Catholic Church likes evolution. ..but it's all dressing. It completely makes their existence redundant. So as long as we don't think about it too hard, sure, religion and science get along. But you stop and look at it, and you're left with nothing but magic.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:43
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Effectronica posted:Who says it's a virtue? Jesus, presumably, if it's true that he prefers that people come to him through faith rather than evidence. Maybe I misunderstood your post.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:44
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steinrokkan posted:I don't think Oedipus cucked his dad, seeing as his dad was dead. HADES' THRONE ROOM. The shade of KING LAIUS approaches the god of the underworld. LAIUS: Am I just dead, or a dead cuckold? This is important. HADES: ...
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Dec 2, 2014 00:45
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steinrokkan posted:I don't think Oedipus cucked his dad, seeing as his dad was dead. With a bit of work this could turn into a tongue twister.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:47
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Jastiger posted:I feel like this is a dodge. It doesn't matter how we feel about it if none of its true. I think pope Francis really embodies this. Yeah he's nice and all, and I'm glad the Catholic Church likes evolution. ..but it's all dressing. It completely makes their existence redundant. So as long as we don't think about it too hard, sure, religion and science get along. If you're saying "modern empirical science" rather than just "the theory of evolution" I would still disagree but that's significantly more tenable.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:47
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Torka posted:Jesus, presumably, if it's true that he prefers that people come to him through faith rather than evidence. Maybe I misunderstood your post. Or, alternatively, he has no desire to compel worship and so avoids direct interaction with the world except in plausibly deniable ways. This is somewhat outside of conventional Christianity, but it's a possible interpretation from the gospels.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:48
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Effectronica posted:Or, alternatively, he has no desire to compel worship and so avoids direct interaction with the world except in plausibly deniable ways. This is somewhat outside of conventional Christianity, but it's a possible interpretation from the gospels. How is it "compulsion" to show people evidence. Was Jesus interfering with free will when He did all those miracles in the Gospels? It seems like a bit of an unfair test if some people get to meet the Son of God and watch him heal lepers, and the rest of us have to just blunder into the right religion among the competing claims of thousands of traditions and holy men and high priests.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:56
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Effectronica posted:Or, alternatively, he has no desire to compel worship and so avoids direct interaction with the world except in plausibly deniable ways. This is somewhat outside of conventional Christianity, but it's a possible interpretation from the gospels.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:57
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Torka posted:I don't see how proving the reality of his existence in an unambiguous way would be the same thing as compelling me to worship him. Satan and his followers are 100% convinced that God exists and nevertheless choose not to worship him. Plus if God decides He made it too easy, He can always reach in and harden your heart like He does whenever He really wants to get some raging punishment on.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:59
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VitalSigns posted:How is it "compulsion" to show people evidence. Imagine if supernatural intervention was a constant, visible presence in your daily life. Would you believe in the supernatural then? Jesus, down to his appearance before Thomas Didymus, praises people who are willing to place their trust in him and thus have genuine faith. Furthermore, his miracles (apart from the ones in John that are likely allegorical) aren't very far out of line with what people did all the time. He was noteworthy for his radical attacks on both wings of Judaism and his rejection of Roman authority, which is why his followers counted multiple Zealots and possibly a member of the Sicarii. Nor did everyone who witnessed his miracles believe in him as Christ, or else you'd think the centurion who oversaw his crucifixion would have been mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. Torka posted:I don't see how proving the reality of his existence in an unambiguous way would be the same thing as compelling me to worship him. Satan and his followers are 100% convinced that God exists and nevertheless choose not to worship him. Worship in the sense of acknowledging his existence.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:01
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Effectronica posted:Imagine if supernatural intervention was a constant, visible presence in your daily life. Would you believe in the supernatural then? Jesus, down to his appearance before Thomas Didymus, praises people who are willing to place their trust in him and thus have genuine faith. Yeah but he still appeared to him and showed him the stigmata. He wasn't like "Oh well, didn't have enough faith, hell!"
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Dec 2, 2014 01:04
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Man Joseph was a goddamn sissy, if God raped my wife and got her pregnant with her own rapist I'd be pretty drat pissed. Although I'm sure there's some passage in the bible that explains that Mary was totally psyched to be penetrated by a blinding beam of light or whatever.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:06
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nopantsjack posted:Man Joseph was a goddamn sissy, if God raped my wife and got her pregnant with her own rapist I'd be pretty drat pissed. Actually there is Luke 1:35 posted:The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. For no word from God will ever fail.” Looks like consent to me. Although if she's the Lord's servant, I'd still say while it might be inappropriate to impregnate your employees I'm not sure that it rises to the level of rape.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:10
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but he still appeared to him and showed him the stigmata. He wasn't like "Oh well, didn't have enough faith, hell!" Okay, so if God, El-Shaddai, YHVH, etc. made his presence known, everyone would acknowledge his existence. You see why this is compelling worship? Faith (outside of trust in the senses) is impossible when something is a routine matter of physical reality. An entity that values people placing trust in him would lose much of that trust if his existence were undeniable.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:10
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nopantsjack posted:Man Joseph was a goddamn sissy, if God raped my wife and got her pregnant with her own rapist I'd be pretty drat pissed. "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word."
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Dec 2, 2014 01:11
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VitalSigns posted:Actually there is "The Holy Spirit will come on you"
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Dec 2, 2014 01:11
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so if God, El-Shaddai, YHVH, etc. made his presence known, everyone would acknowledge his existence. You see why this is compelling worship? Faith (outside of trust in the senses) is impossible when something is a routine matter of physical reality. An entity that values people placing trust in him would lose much of that trust if his existence were undeniable. Why. Plenty of people saw Jesus' miracles and they didn't all worship him. Hell, the Old Testament was full of stories of the Jews literally seeing God show up and wreck poo poo the whole way from Egypt to Canaan, yet the second He nips out to have a chat on a mountaintop they start worshiping a drat statue. And that's not even the only time. He rains food on them and by the afternoon they've already lost trust again and are complaining to Moses that he's led them out here to die. After all the poo poo God did for Abraham, Abraham still didn't believe his old-rear end wife could get pregnant despite the promises so he knocked up his slave girl. Lot's wife. Time and time again people who knew 100% for sure that God was real still didn't trust Him, so it seems like there is no risk of loving with free will here. And then no one gets damned for a simple mistake about which God to worship.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:17
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so if God, El-Shaddai, YHVH, etc. made his presence known, everyone would acknowledge his existence. You see why this is compelling worship? Faith (outside of trust in the senses) is impossible when something is a routine matter of physical reality. An entity that values people placing trust in him would lose much of that trust if his existence were undeniable. If that is so, would you be disclaiming the mainstream Christian position that people of reason and decency can be counted on to arrive at belief in God? It seems like only one of these ideas could be true.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:17
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but he still appeared to him and showed him the stigmata. He wasn't like "Oh well, didn't have enough faith, hell!" Correct, Christ does not need us to believe through faith alone. Physical connection such as the Eucharist or the relics of saints are an important part of worship.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:19
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Torka posted:Believing in something without evidence is behind a lot of terrible real world problems, such as racism and sexism. Why are we to consider it a virtue in this instance? Racism and sexism are not rooted in "a lack of evidence." They are rooted in collective revenge, the idea that an individual cannot truly differ from negative probabilistic tendencies of their category. Faith is a hopeful outlook rather than a despairing one, and is therefore a virtue. Torka posted:I don't see how proving the reality of his existence in an unambiguous way would be the same thing as compelling me to worship him. Satan and his followers are 100% convinced that God exists and nevertheless choose not to worship him. And they will burn in Hell forever.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:20
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Kyrie eleison posted:Racism and sexism are not rooted in "a lack of evidence." They are rooted in collective revenge, the idea that an individual cannot truly differ from negative probabilistic tendencies of their category.  Umm. Hmm. Could you elaborate?
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Dec 2, 2014 01:22
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Kyrie eleison posted:And they will burn in Hell forever. I thought you couldn't speak for God when it came to who would and would not burn in hell. Seems to me you're speaking out of turn little lunatic.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:26
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Kyrie eleison posted:And they will burn in Hell forever. Sure, but that doesn't answer "providing proof of his existence does not compel worship" in any way. If anything you seem to be agreeing with me that God could make his existence impossible to deny without anyone being forced to worship him as a result.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:29
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Caros posted:I thought you couldn't speak for God when it came to who would and would not burn in hell. Seems to me you're speaking out of turn little lunatic. "Hell" means the choice to reject God; Kyrie is merely tautologically restating this (those who have rejected Christ will be in hell). We cannot say whether any particular person (even the ones you might think are slam dunks: Judas, Pontius Pilate, etc) is in hell - they may have repented and accepted Christ.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:32
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Caros posted:I thought you couldn't speak for God when it came to who would and would not burn in hell. Seems to me you're speaking out of turn little lunatic. It is a basic teaching that Satan and his angels are in Hell and wish to drag souls to Hell. e: correction, Satan and his angels are on Earth, and will be in Hell after the Apocalypse. Kyrie eleison fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 01:34
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Kyrie eleison posted:It is a basic teaching that Satan and his angels are in Hell and wish to drag souls to Hell. But you can't say for certain that people who follow Satan will go to hell. You can guess but you really shouldn't speak for your lord. Tsk tsk.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:37
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Caros posted:But you can't say for certain that people who follow Satan will go to hell. You can guess but you really shouldn't speak for your lord. Tsk tsk. Yes you can - this is what hell is, the wilful rejection of God. You can't say that any particular person did this though.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:39
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So since they 'drag souls' into hell, does that mean that God visited Hell for his bet for Job? He's cool with chilling in a torture chamber making bets? Maybe God's chillax spot isn't in Heaven, it's actually in a seedy Motel 6 in Reno?
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Dec 2, 2014 01:39
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Kyrie eleison posted:It is a basic teaching that Satan and his angels are in Hell and wish to drag souls to Hell. But you claim God will never let any of them out of Hell. Are you a prophet? Because the only way you could know God will never forgive a person is if you have spoken to God and he told you, or are yourself God.
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Dec 2, 2014 01:41
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DrProsek posted:But you claim God will never let any of them out of Hell. Are you a prophet? Because the only way you could know God will never forgive a person is if you have spoken to God and he told you, or are yourself God. Or because a book told him. A book written by people who were also not god, but who were divinely inspired, really, we promise we aren't making this up!
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Dec 2, 2014 01:43
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