CommieGIR posted:What is the proof of god? The Bible. Nothing! There is no proof! That's what I've been saying all this time! Caros posted:But that part is also written by men. So how do we know that part isn't simply Apocryphal? Maybe Jesus actually meant to say that you should go out and gently caress your neighbor whenever possible just like you jerk off. Maybe Jesus was secretly emo and was all like "Love your neighbor like you love yourself... not at all!". Maybe that whole section was made up out of whole cloth after the fact because it sounded like a good message. Many things are possible, but some possibilities are jackassy. What makes War and Peace different from a Star Trek novel?
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Dec 2, 2014 03:21
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Ernie Muppari posted:yeah i don't think ancient gross old men really cared about hashing that out Not like it'd matter. God would just have to give her some sheep, or cut off her husband's foot or something after the rape and it would all be kosher.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:21
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Ernie Muppari posted:yeah i don't think ancient gross old men really cared about hashing that out Yeah, I was more wondering about modern sects. Doubtless back in the original bible it could have said Gabriel thrashed her to an inch of her life and pulled her over a pinball machine and nobody would mind, a good portion of all Abraham religions were primarily used as a way of controlling the birthgivers.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:23
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nopantsjack posted:Yeah, I was more wondering about modern sects. Doubtless back in the original bible it could have said Gabriel thrashed her to an inch of her life and pulled her over a pinball machine and nobody would mind, a good portion of all Abraham religions were primarily used as a way of controlling the birthgivers. I don't think anyone other than ecstatic mystics has ever really wondered about whether Mary was penetrated or whether the Holy Spirit, being the feminine Sophia, ate her out. I'm sure Kyrie will prove me wrong.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:25
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Effectronica posted:Many things are possible, but some possibilities are jackassy. Aesthetics? I know there are plenty of people who think War and Peace is utter garbage, but that Star Trek novel #475 is the poo poo. What exactly does this have to do with anything? Are you arguing that the part you quoted is somehow more relevant than Exodus because it is better written? Or that you just prefer the message it sends. I mean that is an okay thing to take away, but I don't see how that means that the Parable of the Good Samaritan is somehow more reliable than Moses bringing down the Ten Commandments.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:25
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Caros posted:Aesthetics? I know there are plenty of people who think War and Peace is utter garbage, but that Star Trek novel #475 is the poo poo. The first sentence is really all you needed to write. But you're doing it in reverse order. You're playing a stupid game where you mug for the camera and say things like "It was written by a fallible human being! Jesus could have been a misanthrope all along!" instead of engaging with the text, so that you could understand why whining about whether the Ten Commandments are meant to be real or not is stupid as gently caress.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:28
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Some more on the Devil. 1. A correction: The Devil and his angels do not presently reside in Hell, but on Earth, until the Apocalypse. 2. Lucifer and his angels were created good in their nature, but by their own will became evil, and have done so permanently. 3. There was a great battle in Heaven at the beginning of the world, where the archangel Michael and his angels battled against Lucifer and his angels, and cast them out of Heaven and onto the Earth. 4. The Devil corrupted mankind out of his Envy. 5. The Devil's great sin was his desire to be God.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:30
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Effectronica posted:The first sentence is really all you needed to write. No, I'm pointing out to you that your entire argument is resting on the belief that you can ignore some parts of the text, reinterpret others, call still others nothing but metaphor because all of it was written by human beings with little to no divine inspiration. As far as I can tell your argument is that you know which parts of the bible are 'right' because they are the ones that appeal most to you personally. This quote about Jesus is really important, but that whole Moses story, eh, probably mostly made up. You have absolutely nothing to base your sectioning of the book off of apart from your own feelings. And this is the word of god that is the only salvation for mankind, a book that is so disjointed that you pretty much take away what you want from it, whether it be love your neighbor like you love yourself, Or stone the gently caress out of those gay people over there. God has done a lovely job revealing himself to humanity in any way that will save people from eternal torment. Kyrie eleison posted:Some more on the Devil. That's some pretty decent fiction you've got there. I'm more partial to the Constantine take on things tho. Maybe spawn.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:33
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Kyrie eleison posted:Some more on the Devil. Hail lucifer, I entrust my soul to thee. gently caress, its gonna bite me in the rear end when it turns out Kyrie is right and the devil reads something awful. Lucifer you can only have my soul if you really give Kyrie a right dusting up.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:35
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Kyrie eleison posted:Some more on the Devil.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:36
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Kyrie eleison posted:Some more on the Devil. And they made this awesome TV show: Supernatural!
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Dec 2, 2014 03:40
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Caros posted:No, I'm pointing out to you that your entire argument is resting on the belief that you can ignore some parts of the text, reinterpret others, call still others nothing but metaphor because all of it was written by human beings with little to no divine inspiration. You can interpret these texts through textual and historical analysis. The Moses story is mostly made up because there is no evidence of a mass migration to Egypt from Canaan or from Egypt into the Sinai for an extended period of time and then into Canaan. If the Exodus records anything, it preserves a period when the Israelites abandoned urban life for nomadic life to escape Egyptian dominion. However, the moral aspects like the Ten Commandments and the Leviticus laws are relevant to the beliefs of the Israelites and to the text as a whole even if the story around them is metaphorical. However, there is not much reason to disbelieve that Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself", as it is recorded in all three of the synoptic gospels, for an audience of people who would have had access to sayings documents like the Gospel of Thomas or the Q source. Nor am I a Christian.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:40
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Is entrusting my soul to lucifer on something awful a binding agreement? If I edit out that post does it take it back? I only ask this because I just saw a black calf walking backwards speaking in the tongues of men go past by window.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:43
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Effectronica posted:Nothing! There is no proof! That's what I've been saying all this time! Uh then how am I supposed to pick the right religion? I don't want to get it wrong and go to hell. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't matter since apparently Christianity is about making up my own special snowflake theology, quoting the bits in the bible that could kinda-sorta be read to agree with me, then dismiss anything that doesn't agree with me as obvious Jewish lies
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Dec 2, 2014 03:50
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Effectronica posted:You can interpret these texts through textual and historical analysis. The Moses story is mostly made up because there is no evidence of a mass migration to Egypt from Canaan or from Egypt into the Sinai for an extended period of time and then into Canaan. If the Exodus records anything, it preserves a period when the Israelites abandoned urban life for nomadic life to escape Egyptian dominion. However, the moral aspects like the Ten Commandments and the Leviticus laws are relevant to the beliefs of the Israelites and to the text as a whole even if the story around them is metaphorical. Considering there is plenty of reason to disbelieve the existence of Jesus himself as anything more than a collection of myths I'd say there is plenty of reason to believe that the story of him saying "Love ty Neighbor as thyself" is up there in contention. And of course even if you acknowledge the existence of Jesus, you then have to go beyond the fact that he was very likely just one more person claiming to know of the divine. Albeit one with a message that happened to resonate particularly well.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:51
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VitalSigns posted:On the other hand, maybe it doesn't matter since apparently Christianity is about making up my own special snowflake theology, quoting the bits in the bible that could kinda-sorta be read to agree with me, then dismiss anything that doesn't agree with me as obvious Jewish lies Its the all you can eat of religions.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:51
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VitalSigns posted:Uh then how am I supposed to pick the right religion? I don't want to get it wrong and go to hell. I'm not a Christian. I think I should put that in a gigantic sig. Caros posted:Considering there is plenty of reason to disbelieve the existence of Jesus himself as anything more than a collection of myths I'd say there is plenty of reason to believe that the story of him saying "Love ty Neighbor as thyself" is up there in contention. And of course even if you acknowledge the existence of Jesus, you then have to go beyond the fact that he was very likely just one more person claiming to know of the divine. Albeit one with a message that happened to resonate particularly well. Nice dancing around. There's actually not much reason to disbelieve the existence of a man named Joshua bar-Joseph, a carpenter from Galilee, who was crucified by Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judaea, as a revolutionary and insurrectionist, at least any more than any other person known from a handful of references. Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus clearly also are unlikely to have existed, only being known from the writings of Julius Caesar.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:54
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nopantsjack posted:Is entrusting my soul to lucifer on something awful a binding agreement? If I edit out that post does it take it back? Put a quarter in your rear end cuz you just played yourself.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:54
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CommieGIR posted:Its the all you can eat of religions. No I'm pretty sure that's just how one does the ideology thing.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:56
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Caros posted:Considering there is plenty of reason to disbelieve the existence of Jesus himself as anything more than a collection of myths I'd say there is plenty of reason to believe that the story of him saying "Love ty Neighbor as thyself" is up there in contention. And of course even if you acknowledge the existence of Jesus, you then have to go beyond the fact that he was very likely just one more person claiming to know of the divine. Albeit one with a message that happened to resonate particularly well. you just need faith.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:57
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The reality that so many atheists want Christians to be forced to murder homosexuals and suspected witches is fascinating for its look into the minds of motherfuckers, but it's also really, really stupid and borderline unbelievable.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:59
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Effectronica posted:The reality that so many atheists want Christians to be forced to murder homosexuals and suspected witches is fascinating for its look into the minds of motherfuckers, but it's also really, really stupid and borderline unbelievable. believe it! 
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Dec 2, 2014 04:01
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Effectronica posted:I'm not a Christian. I think I should put that in a gigantic sig. This doesn't really excuse your annoying debate style of presenting some idiosyncratic Christian theology that exists only in your head and responding to any scriptural critique with "the Bible is all bullshit lol"
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Dec 2, 2014 04:03
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Effectronica posted:The reality that so many atheists want Christians to be forced to murder homosexuals and suspected witches is fascinating for its look into the minds of motherfuckers, but it's also really, really stupid and borderline unbelievable. Meanwhile I imagine an atheist who comes out of a Jewish family and just drifted out of religion because his rabbi kept yacking about Israel and his parents didn't care will probably be less agitated about it. Or the atheist who lives in Japan but still goes to the temple for funerals. etc.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:05
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CommieGIR posted:Its either the divine inspired word of god with rules set down by him, or its not, you can't have it both ways. Most religious people don't believe their holy books are the literal word of god though, so nice strawman there, bucko. Especially since people are aware that massive errors have to have crept in from "original" writing, and some religious traditions explicitly believe that people can't render things perfectly, much as if I told you a story over the phone, then made you wait until an hour after the conversation to write it down. CommieGIR posted:Good question. What is the purpose in the Bible if none of this is divinely inspired. Again divinely inspired doesn't mean it's a literal rendition. I feel I should clarify I personally cosider myself agnostic, and that's in part because m parents were Jewish and Catholic and we never went to any sort of regular religous observances. I'm not saying "because this stuff about religion functioning is true, Christ is Lord" or whatever.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:07
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Effectronica posted:I'm not a Christian. I think I should put that in a gigantic sig. So why are you defending this? quote:Nice dancing around. There's actually not much reason to disbelieve the existence of a man named Joshua bar-Joseph, a carpenter from Galilee, who was crucified by Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judaea, as a revolutionary and insurrectionist, at least any more than any other person known from a handful of references. Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus clearly also are unlikely to have existed, only being known from the writings of Julius Caesar. Some guy with a similar name was crucified by a man depicted in the bible. Whew, glad we got that out of the way. That makes it incredibly likely that things he was quoted as saying actually happened and were divinely inspired instead of just being one more thing made up whole cloth or misinterpreted into the bible. It goes back to my initial point that we really can't trust poo poo in the bible. The only source for our knowledge of divine salvation is a book that is factually sketchy at best. Joshua bar-Joseph becomes Jesus within a handful of years, which name should I even be worshiping?
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Dec 2, 2014 04:08
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VitalSigns posted:This doesn't really excuse your annoying debate style of presenting some idiosyncratic Christian theology that exists only in your head and responding to any scriptural critique with "the Bible is all bullshit lol" That's not what I've done, friend. You're engaging in the sort of biblical literalism that only a small sect of a minority of Christians globally would engage in, and you're demanding that all Christians (and any non-Christians with any sympathy for Christianity) think the same way. Golly gee, looks like you're a cartoonish fascist. Nessus posted:To be frank I think it's that a lot of the people who are like, militant atheists, come out of a fundamentalist background, so they a. have the conditioning that predisposes them to that KIND of narrative a little, and b. have something to prove vis-a-vis the system that caused them so much grief. Yeah, this is probably the case. Of course, those religions are far more focused on traditions, so that you have secular Jews and a Japan where people will make offerings at a shrine without necessarily believing in the reality of Inari, or make offerings at a shrine after going to a Christmas sermon, and then do zazen on Christmas Day.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:10
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Caros posted:So why are you defending this? Why not? quote:Some guy with a similar name was crucified by a man depicted in the bible. Whew, glad we got that out of the way. That makes it incredibly likely that things he was quoted as saying actually happened and were divinely inspired instead of just being one more thing made up whole cloth or misinterpreted into the bible. That's his actual name. Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua. Really, you're an idiot.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:11
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Nintendo Kid posted:Most religious people don't believe their holy books are the literal word of god though, so nice strawman there, bucko. Its not divinely inspired, its not the word of god, so what is its purpose exactly. Hopefully not a social commentary because it SUCKS at that. Nintendo Kid posted:Again divinely inspired doesn't mean it's a literal rendition. And this works in the Bible's favor how? Effectronica posted:The reality that so many atheists want Christians to be forced to murder homosexuals and suspected witches is fascinating for its look into the minds of motherfuckers, but it's also really, really stupid and borderline unbelievable. Now THAT is a strawman.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:16
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Effectronica posted:Why not? Because it's pointless and makes you look like an obnoxious rear end in a top hat?  quote:That's his actual name. Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua. Really, you're an idiot. I'm commenting on the fact that we call Jesus by a name that doesn't sound remotely like what he would have actually been called in his own time. I understand it is effectively a lost in translation error, that was sort of my point, that the bible is so loving unreliable that it ends up with a name for its lord and savior that is not even close to what people actually called him. JEE-zuss, Ye-hoh-SHUU-ah.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:18
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Nessus posted:I actually don't get how evolution makes the Catholic Church in specific, or religious groups in general, redundant. Can you explain that? The church becomes redundant because if natural science is the best and only way to learn about the world, or is st least better than theology, then there is no room for virgin births, or fear of eternal torment at a super natural entity. There is still room for philosophy obviously, but the entire existence of the church is predicated upon the unprovable tenet that Jesus is the son of god, born of a virgin, and they know what God/Jesus wants. So if the church was serious about sciencing it up, they'd make themselves irrelevant. It's good that they do to a point from a utilitarian point of view. But they can give lip service all they want, they aren't serious, as an organization, nor as a faith, about the compatibility of science and theology. Because they aren't compatible and they know it
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Dec 2, 2014 04:19
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Sorry double phone post
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Dec 2, 2014 04:19
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Jastiger posted:The church becomes redundant because if natural science is the best and only way to learn about the world, or is st least better than theology, then there is no room for virgin births, or fear of eternal torment at a super natural entity. There is still room for philosophy obviously, but the entire existence of the church is predicated upon the unprovable tenet that Jesus is the son of god, born of a virgin, and they know what God/Jesus wants.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:21
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Effectronica posted:That's not what I've done, friend. y'know, I get that when someone uses the word "friend" like this they're trying to come off as all insincere and vaguely intimidating, but it mostly feels like the sort of thing either a little kid or a super dweeby 40-something year old guy does
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Dec 2, 2014 04:22
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Caros posted:Because it's pointless and makes you look like an obnoxious rear end in a top hat? Why is it any more pointless than any other thread? With the intermediate forms: Yeshua Iesous Iesus Jesus Ernie Muppari posted:y'know, I get that when someone uses the word "friend" like this they're trying to come off as all insincere and vaguely intimidating, but it mostly feels like the sort of thing either a little kid or a super dweeby 40-something year old guy does I'm just doing it to be smarmy.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:22
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Effectronica posted:Why is it any more pointless than any other thread? Good, he has a name. Hopefully that means we can validate some of his claims outside of the vague notion that he existed.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:24
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Effectronica posted:I'm just doing it to be smarmy. smarmy! that's the word I was trying to come up with there, thank you
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Dec 2, 2014 04:24
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Effectronica posted:That's not what I've done, friend. You're engaging in the sort of biblical literalism that only a small sect of a minority of Christians globally would engage in, and you're demanding that all Christians (and any non-Christians with any sympathy for Christianity) think the same way. Golly gee, looks like you're a cartoonish fascist. Apparently the definition of fascism has stretched so far that it now includes "someone expecting me to support my ideas with something besides 'I say so' ". You're just making up a bunch of bullshit, calling it Christianity, then dismissing any counterargument with "nah I decided not to believe that" Effectronica posted:Nice dancing around. There's actually not much reason to disbelieve the existence of a man named Joshua bar-Joseph, a carpenter from Galilee, who was crucified by Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judaea, as a revolutionary and insurrectionist, at least any more than any other person known from a handful of references. Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus clearly also are unlikely to have existed, only being known from the writings of Julius Caesar. This is pretty tenuous. You should look into this guy Mohammed. We know he existed and we even have copies of the original words that the angel Gabriel dictated to him, and in the original language too! Doesn't get more authoritative than that.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:28
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VitalSigns posted:Apparently the definition of fascism has stretched so far that it now includes "someone expecting me to support my ideas with something besides 'I say so' ". You're just making up a bunch of bullshit, calling it Christianity, then dismissing any counterargument with "nah I decided not to believe that" No, I haven't. I've actually just ignored all the bullshit so far. I even pointed out that the factual nature of the story in Exodus through Joshua is irrelevant to the importance of the Ten Commandments and the Leviticine law. But please, go ahead and provide a scriptural example so that I can engage in that, for your sake. quote:This is pretty tenuous. You should look into this guy Mohammed. We know he existed and we even have copies of the original words that the angel Gabriel dictated to him, and in the original language too! Doesn't get more authoritative than that. Mohammed is a good example, because even if he invented the Qu'ran, it still beggars belief to think that everything in the early history of Islam was done as a deliberate and complete fraud. It's like that Russian professor who believes the Middle Ages were all faked.
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Dec 2, 2014 04:31
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CommieGIR posted:Its not divinely inspired, its not the word of god, so what is its purpose exactly. Hopefully not a social commentary because it SUCKS at that. Ok so you literally have no clue what the word inspired means? Is that your point? Try reading a dictionary sometime, there's a pretty significant difference between being inspired by something and making a verbatim copy. Also the bible is unarguably one hell of a social commentary on the societies that wrote it over a few thousand years so I have no idea where you're getting the idea it isn't! What are you even talking about? Are you really so stupid that you think the people who claim they read the bible literally (and incidentally never read most of the bible) are like the mainstream of all religions?
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Dec 2, 2014 04:33
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