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Telling the layman to trust the experts on something like vaccine trials makes sense. But how, as a layman, am I supposed to know which group of religious experts has it right, when they only thing they can seem to agree on is that God is sending all the other experts to hell for their egregious lies?
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Dec 2, 2014 22:18
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Much like we have lawyers to help us understand things like the CFR, there are cannon lawyers to help us understand the things in the Catechism. If you're interested enough, it's even a career path you can follow! But the layman has, in fact, probably not spent enough time studying things to understand them very well. Which is how you end up with people (some in this very thread!) who insist on a literal reading of the Bible. Its almost as if they make it specifically obscure enough so that only they can understand the full truth 
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Dec 2, 2014 22:20
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CommieGIR posted:Its almost as if they make it specifically obscure enough so that only they can understand the full truth Why do you think it should be possible to understand the mind of God?
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Dec 2, 2014 22:24
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Cavaradossi posted:Why do you think it should be possible to understand the mind of God? You're right, anyone who claims to have special insight into the divine should be automatically branded a liar and a con man.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:25
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Cavaradossi posted:Why do you think it should be possible to understand the mind of God? God is the 1%? Also: Yeah, nobody is understanding the mind of a diety that doesn't present himself to reality.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:25
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Much like we have lawyers to help us understand things like the CFR, there are cannon lawyers to help us understand the things in the Catechism. If you're interested enough, it's even a career path you can follow! But the layman has, in fact, probably not spent enough time studying things to understand them very well. Which is how you end up with people (some in this very thread!) who insist on a literal reading of the Bible. Whoa, whoa, you sound pretty smug there. Are you insisting that people should study things and consult their problems with learned authorities? Well, that won't fly over here, Mr. Fancypants.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:26
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VitalSigns posted:You're right, anyone who claims to have special insight into the divine should be automatically branded a liar and a con man. Definitely.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:27
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steinrokkan posted:Whoa, whoa, you sound pretty smug there. Are you insisting that people should study things and consult their problems with learned authorities? Well, that won't fly over here, Mr. Fancypants. Quickly, someone consult the scrolls to figure out if the invisible guy in the sky will drat us or love us!
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Dec 2, 2014 22:27
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VitalSigns posted:Telling the layman to trust the experts on something like vaccine trials makes sense. But how, as a layman, am I supposed to know which group of religious experts has it right, when they only thing they can seem to agree on is that God is sending all the other experts to hell for their egregious lies? A good idea is to go to those experts who have been there since the beginning and have a couple of thousand years of accumulated research in the subject. Interestingly, this group of experts includes not just the Catholic church, but in just about every area the Orthodox and the Mainline Protestants, none of which are keen on saying anybody is going to hell. To continue your vaccine trials metaphor, to listen to them is like listening to the medical establishment, while listening to, say, the Southern Baptist Convention is like listening to the anti-vax crowd. Sure, the latter says they're experts, but they don't have anything to back it up. CommieGIR posted:Its almost as if they make it specifically obscure enough so that only they can understand the full truth It's not obscure, just complicated. Most people can't be bothered to figure it out. If you can be bothered, then go do so, lazy rear end.  steinrokkan posted:Whoa, whoa, you sound pretty smug there. Are you insisting that people should study things and consult their problems with learned authorities? Well, that won't fly over here, Mr. Fancypants. I know it's crazy, yeah.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:28
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Much like we have lawyers to help us understand things like the CFR, there are cannon lawyers to help us understand the things in the Catechism. If you're interested enough, it's even a career path you can follow! But the layman has, in fact, probably not spent enough time studying things to understand them very well. Which is how you end up with people (some in this very thread!) who insist on a literal reading of the Bible. I for one sure am glad that God decided to make the only record of his existence on earth come in the form of a document that is so convoluted that it cannot be really understood by a Layman. Because you wouldn't want to make the only path to salvation... you know... attainable for the layman. quote:Why do you think it should be possible to understand the mind of God? He isn't... he's claiming that its stupid as gently caress that the bible is our primary source for knowledge about god but is so poorly written that it even trying to differentiate the parts that are true from the parts that are made up is a career in and of itself. God sure loves lying to people. Caros fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 22:28
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Mr. Wiggles posted:It's not obscure, just complicated. Most people can't be bothered to figure it out. If you can be bothered, then go do so, lazy rear end.  I'm sorry, god is not an advanced degree, nor is he worth it.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:29
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Caros posted:I for one sure am glad that God decided to make the only record of his existence on earth come in the form of a document that is so convoluted that it can only be really understood by a Layman. Because you wouldn't want to make the only path to salvation... you know... attainable for the layman. What is this nonsense? Who do you think you're arguing with? This ain't the Evangelical Hour here, bub.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:31
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Mr. Wiggles posted:What is this nonsense? Who do you think you're arguing with? This ain't the Evangelical Hour here, bub. Thank goodness the Roman Empire figured it out just as they started to slip into obscurity 
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Dec 2, 2014 22:31
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Mr. Wiggles posted:A good idea is to go to those experts who have been there since the beginning and have a couple of thousand years of accumulated research in the subject. A couple thousand years? That's nothing, there are older religions than that.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:33
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Mr. Wiggles posted:What is this nonsense? Who do you think you're arguing with? This ain't the Evangelical Hour here, bub. ... so, are you Wolverine or something? Who the gently caress says bub? And it was a typo, I meant to say that it cannot at all be understood by a layman.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:33
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Caros posted:I for one sure am glad that God decided to make the only record of his existence on earth come in the form of a document that is so convoluted that it can only be really understood by a Layman. Because you wouldn't want to make the only path to salvation... you know... attainable for the layman. Lots of people have problem with this because they think that Christianity is something that should be kept on the periphery of their lives and just sort of passively grant them salvation. I'm pretty sure that the issue of convoluted messages becomes much less acute if you do what the faith really demands of you, which is to sacrifice your entire life and every waking moment to living and learning its teachings. If you don't want to do that, understandably, CommieGIR posted:
then why should you be troubled that you as a layman don't understand it, after all it has no bearing on you and it's a choice that Christianity envisions.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:35
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CommieGIR posted:Thank goodness the Roman Empire figured it out just as they started to slip into obscurity Anyway y'all really ought to get your people to start pushing back because for a fuckload of people their experience of Christianity is in fact "being told they'll go to Hell a whole bunch."
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Dec 2, 2014 22:36
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Religion is for weak people who can't handle reality or are scared of the unknown (read: dying).
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Dec 2, 2014 22:36
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steinrokkan posted:then why should you be troubled that you as a layman don't understand it, after all it has no bearing on you and it's a choice that Christianity envisions. Because anyone who thinks their religion is so full of mystery and understanding that requires years of study is lying to themselves.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:36
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Religion is an advanced degree because there's literal millennia of things happening in them since a book was written as the nominal base.CommieGIR posted:Because anyone who thinks their religion is so full of mystery and understanding that requires years of study is lying to themselves. No, you're lying to yourself if you think most don't. Whether something is true has little bearing on how complex it is.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:36
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steinrokkan posted:Lots of people have problem with this because they think that Christianity is something that should be kept on the periphery of their lives and just sort of passively grant them salvation. I'm pretty sure that the issue of convoluted messages becomes much less acute if you do what the faith really demands of you, which is to sacrifice your entire life and every waking moment to living and learning its teachings. Because I'm apparently supposed to pick the right religion out of a hat, and I've only got one lifetime to spend wandering down the confused alleys of Biblical interpretation, so I guess I'm hosed if at the end of it it turns out I was supposed to spend this life wandering down the confused alleys of Islamic theology instead. What other advanced degree is like "Oh you can't question us unless you spend a lifetime of study yourself, then you'll understand why if you spend your time getting any other degree instead it's torture forever!"
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Dec 2, 2014 22:37
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Nintendo Kid posted:Religion is an advanced degree because there's literal millennia of things happening in them since a book was written as the nominal base. And most of it can be broken down into: WE turned this into an unfathomable mess of obscure knowledge based around a most fantasy based book. Nintendo Kid posted:No, you're lying to yourself if you think most don't. Whether something is true has little bearing on how complex it is. Hello agnostic whose parents didn't take him to many church services, how are you?
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Dec 2, 2014 22:38
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CommieGIR posted:And most of it can be broken down into: WE turned this into an unfathomable mess of obscure knowledge based around a most fantasy based book. No it can't.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:39
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Nintendo Kid posted:Religion is an advanced degree because there's literal millennia of things happening in them since a book was written as the nominal base. It would be a waste of my time to study Alchemy for the same reason its a waste of time to study religion.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:39
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Nintendo Kid posted:No it can't. Says the guy who literally admits that he didn't get to experience Christianity very much.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:39
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steinrokkan posted:Lots of people have problem with this because they think that Christianity is something that should be kept on the periphery of their lives and just sort of passively grant them salvation. I'm pretty sure that the issue of convoluted messages becomes much less acute if you do what the faith really demands of you, which is to sacrifice your entire life and every waking moment to living and learning its teachings. So the bible is intentionally full of lies and misinformation to make it really, really difficult for anyone to follow its message and fully commit themselves to god and be saved? I suppose the follow up question to that is, do you expect everyone to starve to death? If being a good christian means devoting yourself to the bible as a career, to "sacrifice your entire life and every waking moment to living and learning its teachings" then thats... kinda hosed up. I mean if everyone did what god wanted them to do and devoted themselves to nothing but following the message of the bible, that is pretty much a suicide pact isn't it? No time for growing food, or making medicine, or really in any way improving life here on earth. Or are there a set number of people who are just expected to be damned so that everyone else can properly worship. Thanks atheist farmer Steve, your sacrifice allows us all to worship god, pity you'll end up in hell for being ignorent of the bible. I know this is sort of an overstatement, but I really don't think you've considered what it means to 'sacrifice your entire life and every waking moment to living and learning its teachings.'
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Dec 2, 2014 22:40
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Knifegrab posted:It would be a waste of my time to study Alchemy for the same reason its a waste of time to study religion. Sorry, alchemy is obviously true and the great works of the alchemists are authoritative in their persuasive ability, lazy-rear end. Now go study alchemy for the next 80 years and you'll realize it's true and the siren call of nuclear physics is Satan tempting you to hell.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:41
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CommieGIR posted:Says the guy who literally admits that he didn't get to experience Christianity very much. That's not what I said, I said I don't believe in it. You're pretty terrible at reading. Knifegrab posted:It would be a waste of my time to study Alchemy for the same reason its a waste of time to study religion. Studying alchemy is cool and fun as hell. You should try it sometime. It actually does a lot to explain many lovely folk medicine beliefs and superstitions people still have to this day.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:41
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This thread is literally pointless because you are all trying to argue and use logic with people who have been literally trained to ignore such things.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:41
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Nintendo Kid posted:Studying alchemy is cool and fun as hell. You should try it sometime. It actually does a lot to explain many lovely folk medicine beliefs and superstitions people still have to this day. Probably less cool and fun if you're doing it every waking moment to the exclusion of all else and leaving your family and wife if they deny alchemy tho
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Dec 2, 2014 22:42
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Nintendo Kid posted:That's not what I said, I said I don't believe in it. You're pretty terrible at reading. I'm sure I am Nintendo Kid posted:Studying alchemy is cool and fun as hell. You should try it sometime. It actually does a lot to explain many lovely folk medicine beliefs and superstitions people still have to this day. You really are Fishmech aren't you?
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Dec 2, 2014 22:42
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Nintendo Kid posted:That's not what I said, I said I don't believe in it. You're pretty terrible at reading. You are confirmed as an idiot. But thanks for letting my wildest dreams come true, I can't wait to study carniology, astrology and alchemy, it surely will make myself and the world better! VitalSigns posted:Probably less cool and fun if you're doing it every waking moment to the exclusion of all else and leaving your family and wife if they deny alchemy tho But think of how useful it will be! Seriously, think about it.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:42
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VitalSigns posted:Probably less cool and fun if you're doing it every waking moment to the exclusion of all else and leaving your family and wife if they deny alchemy tho Good thing no one suggested that. Knifegrab posted:You are confirmed as an idiot. But thanks for letting my wildest dreams come true, I can't wait to study carniology, astrology and alchemy, it surely will make myself and the world better! It's pretty funny that you think people who learn about history are idiots. Good thing you never learned anything like the time cube says.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:44
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Nintendo Kid posted:It's pretty funny that you think people who learn about history are idiots. Good thing you never learned anything like the time cube says. Nintendo Kid posted:I feel I should clarify I personally cosider myself agnostic, and that's in part because m parents were Jewish and Catholic and we never went to any sort of regular religous observances. I'm not saying "because this stuff about religion functioning is true, Christ is Lord" or whatever.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:45
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Nintendo Kid posted:Good thing no one suggested that. There is a difference between learning history and devoting your life to learning something that was effectively a failure to understand reality. Yeah learning that alchemy was a failed science is neat, I don't need to spend more than one day reading the wiki to learn that. Allowing alchemy to structure and form my life is in fact a very very dumb thing to do.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:45
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Nintendo Kid posted:Good thing no one suggested that. The suggestion was made earlier that before you reject something you have to spend your life and every waking moment studying it, and if you don't then you have to trust the Catholic Church. But idk, maybe that epistemological requirement only applies to the cathechism, and not to things that are obviously false like alchemy, astrology, the religions of dirty sand-dwelling arabs, feminism, etc.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:46
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I don't see your point. It's possible to learn about things without believing in them. Knifegrab posted:There is a difference between learning history and devoting your life to learning something that was effectively a failure to understand reality. Yeah learning that alchemy was a failed science is neat, I don't need to spend more than one day reading the wiki to learn that. Allowing alchemy to structure and form my life is in fact a very very dumb thing to do. Absolutely no one is saying to dedicate their life to learning alchemy, moron. You can learn all there is to know in less than like 2 semester equivalents if you really stretch things. VitalSigns posted:The suggestion was made earlier that before you reject something you have to spend your life and every waking moment studying it, and if you don't then you have to trust the Catholic Church. Even a theological college is still only 4 years max.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:47
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VitalSigns posted:Because I'm apparently supposed to pick the right religion out of a hat, and I've only got one lifetime to spend wandering down the confused alleys of Biblical interpretation, so I guess I'm hosed if at the end of it it turns out I was supposed to spend this life wandering down the confused alleys of Islamic theology instead. Like, first: The promise of torture gets brought up constantly event though it's been rebuffed million times as something that is by no means certain. Second: I think that fundamentally the teachings of Christian life (simplicity, humility, but also industriousness and care for others - virtues which cleanse the soul and open it to enlightenment and serenity) represent universal enough values not to be waste, and that in a way through them the Church wanted to promote the growth of Christianity more than through book learning (i.e. more like "now your life has more of a structure than it had before, so think about accepting the religion that devised this structure and which is able to answer the questions re. the origin of this structure"), after all Christianity should be accessible even to simpletons.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:47
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VitalSigns posted:The suggestion was made earlier that before you reject something you have to spend your life and every waking moment studying it, and if you don't then you have to trust the Catholic Church. Bu...bu...but we're not experts in the field of BULLSHIT! Nintendo Kid posted:Absolutely no one is saying to dedicate their life to learning alchemy, moron. You can learn all there is to know in less than like 2 semester equivalents if you really stretch things Alchemy is a bunk science. Next question. steinrokkan posted:Like, first: The promise of torture gets brought up constantly event though it's been rebuffed million times as something that is by no means certain. Second: I think that fundamentally the teachings of Christian life (simplicity, humility, but also industriousness and care for others - virtues which cleanse the soul and open it to enlightenment and serenity) represent universal enough values not to be waste, and that in a way through them the Church wanted to promote the growth of Christianity more than through book learning (i.e. more like "now your life has more of a structure than it had before, so think about accepting the religion that devised this structure and which is able to answer the questions re. the origin of this structure"), after all Christianity should be accessible even to simpletons. So, in other words, you don't understand the difference between sociological values and religious values. They are not the same thing, and those virtues existed in society long before some guys made a religion out of it. Its kind of like the 'Marriage' argument: Religion did not invent marriage, they don't get to claim it even if they use it as part of their virtues and rituals.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:47
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Kyrie eleison posted:The non-Nicean interpretations were all wrong because they did not view the Bible holistically (which is to say, they preferred certain passages over others, instead of viewing the totality as true and coming up with explanations for all of it, and accepting paradox in the presence of apparently contradictory teachings). That section (John 10:30) directly contradicts Matthew 24:36, where Jesus insists that he, the Son, does not know the hour nor the day when he will return, but only the Father does. Thus, the orthodox Trinitarianism is nonsensical as well.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:48
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