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Terrorism is actually pretty well defined. Today "terrorist" is just a synonym for jihadist militants, and when people say terrorist, that is what they are referring to. But terrorism more broadly is a campaign of harassment through guerrilla warfare, or attacks in that vein, with the purpose of sewing fear into the victim population to manipulate them. It circumvents direct military conflict, and instead aims put a psychological burden on the enemies civilians. Israel responds to things like a kidnapped Israeli by dropping a million bombs on Gaza to scare the Palestinians into submission so that nothing like that will ever happen again. In the Ghouta chemical attack, Assad was aiming to show those who stood against the regime that no one in the world was there for them, and he could kill anyone in any way he saw fit. Those are two clear examples of state terrorism. I'd also say Shermans March was partly for the purpose of terrorism against southern supporters for the war. If the takeaway from an attack for the people in the victimized region is supposed to be "You could be next," it's probably an act of terror.
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Dec 5, 2014 15:17
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Chomsky phrases it nicely, it's easy to define terrorism, the problem is defining it in such a way that it only applies to the 'the bad guys'. Edit tangent: I hate the way you non semitic people pronounce Chomsky like "Chomp" where it's clearly Homsky like Jalapeno emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 15:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Edit tangent: I hate the way you non semitic people pronounce Chomsky like "Chomp" where it's clearly Homsky like Jalapeno I always thought it was pronounced 'Shom-ski'. More you know.
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Dec 5, 2014 15:55
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Chomsky phrases it nicely, it's easy to define terrorism, the problem is defining it in such a way that it only applies to the 'the bad guys'. If your biggest issue with labeling Israel as a terror state is that by those standards the US would be a terror state as well, then state terrorism becomes a pretty meaningless term.
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Dec 5, 2014 16:02
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Kajeesus posted:If your biggest issue with labeling Israel as a terror state is that by those standards the US would be a terror state as well, then state terrorism becomes a pretty meaningless term. Chomsky is saying its a problem from the point of view of the state. The US and its allies' sponsored terrorism is called "low intensity conflict."
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Dec 5, 2014 16:50
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 quote:OP: Yes, Yair Lapid is an imbecile and an ignoramus.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:35
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Post-poll-60-percent-of-Israelis-dont-want-Netanyahu-anymore-383724 Apparently Bibi is polling much worse than expected so far. Some caveats: 500 is a pretty low sample size for a poll and thus has a pretty decently sized margin of errors, polling in Israel is unreliable and terrible, and coalition politics could render this all jack poo poo anyway. If polls continue to go against Likud I can imagine a lot more provocation of violence by the government in anticipation of the poll
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Dec 6, 2014 01:17
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Jagchosis posted:http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Post-poll-60-percent-of-Israelis-dont-want-Netanyahu-anymore-383724 The more accurate way to poll on something like this is to go ask folks face-to-face who they expect to win in the upcoming elections.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:22
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So, apparently the US government may have been talking about sanctions against Israel for continuing to build settlements in Jerusalem. http://freebeacon.com/national-security/reports-obama-mulling-sanctions-on-israel/ http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/05/obama-officials-mum-on-reports-white-house-weighing-sanctions-on-israel/ And I am aware that its from Fox News and Free Beacon. Just some of the quote stood out from people interviewed. quote:“If these reports are true, this would mark a new era of unprecedented hostility from the White House against our strongest ally in the Middle East,” the source said. “It’s impossible not to notice the irony of the administration mulling sanctions on Israel while threatening to veto new sanctions against Iran. Because, you know, Israel and Iran are on the opposite sides of a see-saw? Or something? I don't get how sanctions on both of them is impossible to understand. quote:“The Obama administration is against sanctions on Iran, but for them on Israel,” said Noah Pollak, executive director of the pro-Israel organization Emergency Committee for Israel. “Is [White House deputy national security adviser] Ben Rhodes wearing a green headband to work these days?” Criticizing Israel and planning on trying to curb its awful behaviour = terrorism, apparently. quote:“Even this administration, which has been historically hostile to our Israeli allies, even as they worked overtime to bomb the enemies of Iranian proxies across the Middle East, could not possibly be so aggressively committed to undermining our alliances as to levy sanctions against Israel at the same time they’re lifting them on Iran,” No seriously Israel and Iran are not on a drat see-saw. They sound like MRA's at this point. "Giving women something means men are losing something! Misandry!" "Sanctioning Israel means Iran is gaining! Anti-semitism!"
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Dec 6, 2014 03:14
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haha aipac is mad about bombing ISIS
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Dec 6, 2014 03:17
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Isaac Herzog is killing it at the Saban Forum right now. http://www.brookings.edu/events/2014/12/05-saban-forum-2014-united-states-israel-middle-east
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Dec 6, 2014 03:22
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Jagchosis posted:haha aipac is mad about bombing ISIS Ever expanding 
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Dec 6, 2014 03:23
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More seditious elements in the US trying to unduly influence US policy away from how you do foreign policy. Hey MIGF, this is how you foreign policy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis
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Dec 6, 2014 03:25
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uninterrupted posted:eric-garners-summary-execution-on-a-sidewalk.png I was gonna go with Oscar grant but this is much worse because these arabs are wearing strange clothes and probably dont even worship the right Jesus!
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Dec 6, 2014 04:49
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Miftan posted:They can definitely elect whoever they want, and you could possibly even argue that Likud is worse because at least with Hamas you know what you're getting, but goddamn the whole thing just makes me sad for them. I can only really hope that when they do finally get a country whoever they elect will be smart enough to keep that business inside Palestine and not provoke Israel any more than they do just by having the country. There was that time where more Palestinians were killed by Palestinians than by Israelis, when Hamas and Fatah were at each others` throats in Gaza. Still instigated by outsiders, in this case the Bush administration thinking Dahlan is going to just waltz in there and take the place. quote:In other news, ynet posted this morning that Gideon Sa'ar was considering coming back to Likud to run against Bibi and should be giving his answer next week about that! Gideon Sa'ar is another slimy politician who was actually voted higher than Bibi in the last 2 Likud primaries if I'm not mistaken. Ynet also said that according to a recent survery he has a wider support in the Likud base than Bibi. I'm not sure how to feel about this because Sa'ar catered to the religious vote heavily by trying to shut down all supermarkets in Tel-Aviv on Saturday before he quit the government last year, and is widely known to be kind of an opportunist dick. Bibi 2.0 if you will. I love how transparent these "breaks" that politicians take are. "Oh, you see, it's not about how I need to take a step back to reposition myself for future maneuvers, my family just needs me and WAIT YOU SAY I COULD WIN THE LIKUD LEADERSHIP!?!?"
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Dec 6, 2014 04:55
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Brainbread posted:So, apparently the US government may have been talking about sanctions against Israel for continuing to build settlements in Jerusalem.    Do it Obama. Do it you crazy motherfucker. Tell Bibi to sit and loving spin, he most certainly deserves it. Seriously, the US doesn't even have to go anti-Israel at all, we just have to stop unconditionally supporting them and then let the rest of the world sanction the poo poo out of them. fade5 fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 05:23
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I want Obama to run into Israel and spike a football on the Star of David.
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Dec 6, 2014 05:24
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Panzeh posted:I want Obama to run into Israel and spike a football on the Star of David. It'd make more sense if Senator Armstrong did it. But I've been watching to much MGS: Revengeance lately, so I dunno.
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Dec 6, 2014 05:43
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I hate to kill your erections, but there is very little a President can do unilaterally to sanction a country, and the odds of Congress passing sanctions on Israel can best be described as "fuckin' LOL"uninterrupted posted:eric-garners-summary-execution-on-a-sidewalk.png nopantsjack posted:I was gonna go with Oscar grant but this is much worse because these arabs are wearing strange clothes and probably dont even worship the right Jesus! If you can't differentiate between a cop killing a suspect and becoming the subject of a federal investigation, and a formal government policy of publicly & gruesomely killing women for things like "bringing dishonor to the clan" and literacy, idk what to tell you (except that this kind of false equivalece and hyperbole is why people don't take left wing criticism seriously on a range of issues.)
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Dec 6, 2014 05:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:I hate to kill your erections, but there is very little a President can do unilaterally to sanction a country, and the odds of Congress passing sanctions on Israel can best be described as "fuckin' LOL" The President tells the Secretary of State to instruct the US Ambassador to the UN to abstain from all votes in the UNSC regarding Israel. He has absolute authority to do this. Your move.  In other news, a couple of Israeli politicians from Labor, Hatnua, etc, are presenting a united front to the Saban Forum, saying they will work together against Netanyahu in and after the elections. They will sell out to a good deal.
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Dec 6, 2014 06:01
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Panzeh posted:More seditious elements in the US trying to unduly influence US policy away from how you do foreign policy. Hey MIGF, this is how you foreign policy: Disagreeing with your view and lobbying your fellow citizens on that view is not treason. I don't see how using that language is productive; by your logic, Obama should be impeached over his weakness on Mideast policy.
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Dec 6, 2014 06:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The President tells the Secretary of State to instruct the US Ambassador to the UN to abstain from all votes in the UNSC regarding Israel. He has absolute authority to do this. Your move.  if after six years you think Obama is the sort of person to jump straight to the most extreme option available.
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Dec 6, 2014 06:23
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nopantsjack posted:I was gonna go with Oscar grant but this is much worse because these arabs are wearing strange clothes and probably dont even worship the right Jesus! Their robes make me feel confused and angry.
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Dec 6, 2014 06:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:That is not what people in government mean when they say "sanction." Also, Most Obama is willing to do, he'll direct State to regard individuals from settlements as Palestinian for USGov purposes.
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Dec 6, 2014 06:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:That is not what people in government mean when they say "sanction." Also, He doesn't have to impose sanctions, he just has to allow others to do so. A lot of Israeli commerce is with Europe, them just plain cutting it off (as opposed to slowly enforcing a cutoff on explicit settlement products and investment) will be very unpleasant, especially compounding the deficit after Defensive Edge. By the way, you need to decide whether this is not even worth the term "sanction" or whether this is the most extreme option. The enemy is a weakling and super-strong at the same time. What does that remind me of? 
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Dec 6, 2014 06:30
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Absurd Alhazred posted:He doesn't have to impose sanctions, he just has to allow others to do so. A lot of Israeli commerce is with Europe, them just plain cutting it off (as opposed to slowly enforcing a cutoff on explicit settlement products and investment) will be very unpleasant, especially compounding the deficit after Defensive Edge. quote:By the way, you need to decide whether this is not even worth the term "sanction" or whether this is the most extreme option. The enemy is a weakling and super-strong at the same time. What does that remind me of?
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Dec 6, 2014 06:56
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Absurd Alhazred posted:He doesn't have to impose sanctions, he just has to allow others to do so. A lot of Israeli commerce is with Europe, them just plain cutting it off (as opposed to slowly enforcing a cutoff on explicit settlement products and investment) will be very unpleasant, especially compounding the deficit after Defensive Edge. Sanctions is an extreme position. Reducing or withholding support for Israel is also an extremist position. The moderate position is to give them more expensive bombs to use on Palestinians.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:34
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If the US isn't arms embargoing Israel its basically breaking its own laws every day, let alone international ones which don't apply to our overlords. It'll never happen I'm aware, I do think a potential abstention policy in the UNSC is plausible in the future though. There is a slow sea change happening towards the Palestinian cause. I think actually as long as the Palestinians can hold out its now more likely they will get independence eventually than not. This was definitely not the case before, eventually though I think the arms business will move elsewhere and the public opinion will become relevant. As soon as it becomes unprofitable Israel is on its own. Israel is actually playing a pretty dangerous game, as many states have learnt from being US clients in the past. As an unlikely example, the US would about turn and support Iran and sanction Israel if it was worth the money and they had a pliant establishment. Sounds stupid but go back a couple decades and being enemies with Iran would seem bizzare as hell. Of course this means if you're a one-state Israeli then your goal becomes strangling and absorbing Palestine before that happens. e: Fantasy example 2: Socialist Israeli party takes over, cuts military and nationalises everything. See how fast Israel becomes a "rogue" state. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 12:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Disagreeing with your view and lobbying your fellow citizens on that view is not treason. I don't see how using that language is productive; by your logic, Obama should be impeached over his weakness on Mideast policy. So when foreign intelligence agents make campaign contributions for policies that favor other nations over the United States, that's not seditious? All other countries are rivals or clients, and only client states should be able to lobby, and any gifts should be sent to the US treasury, rather than any individual politicians. You can't say you're loyal to the US when you lobby on behalf of a foreign country to give it influence over the US.
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Dec 6, 2014 13:28
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nopantsjack posted:
Israel was mad socialist from it's inception to...Yom Kippur War at the least? It may be fully capitalist now but it is an colonialist ultranationalist apartheid state which is also antithetical to US values. It's political system doesn't have anything to do with US support because that support is not based on geopolitical, strategic, moral or economic realities, but the blind hypocritical utter lack of morals of particular demographics. Once those demographics die out this conflict ends and support of Israel will just be one of those awful things US (and its pussy allies) did in the past. Two-state or one-state doesn't matter. Israel won't stop settlements until it is forced to, and Palestinians aren't going anywhere.The end result, 100% due to Israel's greed, will be an actual democratic single country and end of the Jewish state. It's just the matter of waiting it out, which is admittedly easier to anybody but the Palestinians, but it's easily going to happen in our lifetime...unless there are some senior citizens among goons ITT. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 13:49
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Panzeh posted:So when foreign intelligence agents make campaign contributions for policies that favor other nations over the United States, that's not seditious? All other countries are rivals or clients, and only client states should be able to lobby, and any gifts should be sent to the US treasury, rather than any individual politicians. Oh hey, it's that time in the thread where people demonstrate that they don't understand US campaign finance law. AIPAC is, on paper, funded by American donors and run by American citizens. While their activities are certainly eyebrow-raising, the last prosecution against AIPAC employees was dropped over questions about the applicability of the Espionage Act.
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Dec 6, 2014 19:28
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Dead Reckoning posted:Oh hey, it's that time in the thread where people demonstrate that they don't understand US campaign finance law. AIPAC is, on paper, funded by American donors and run by American citizens. While their activities are certainly eyebrow-raising, the last prosecution against AIPAC employees was dropped over questions about the applicability of the Espionage Act. Thankfully, on internet forums I don't have to interpret events in a strictly legal manner. Intelligence agencies rarely work by having nationals just go to another country. I mean, the CIA has case officers who find nationals in any given country ready to do what they want, it's not like you have James Bonds running around. Israeli intelligence services operate similarly in the US.
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Dec 6, 2014 19:39
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If you actually have evidence of meetings between AIPAC leadership and known agents of Israeli intelligence, there are some people at the FBI who would be super interested in that and you should probably give them a call. Otherwise, if we're talking about "groups probably colluding with foreign interests and also making campaign contributions," you're going to have to cast a much wider net, because that list includes just about every oil company.
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Dec 6, 2014 19:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:If you actually have evidence of meetings between AIPAC leadership and known agents of Israeli intelligence, there are some people at the FBI who would be super interested in that and you should probably give them a call. Otherwise, if we're talking about "groups probably colluding with foreign interests and also making campaign contributions," you're going to have to cast a much wider net, because that list includes just about every oil company. But AIPAC isn't an Israeli proxy. It's a Likud proxy. Lobbying is wrong pretty much no matter how you slice it, but it should definitely raise eyebrows that a foreign political party has so much influence in this country because of it.
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Dec 6, 2014 20:02
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Dead Reckoning posted:If you actually have evidence of meetings between AIPAC leadership and known agents of Israeli intelligence, there are some people at the FBI who would be super interested in that and you should probably give them a call. Otherwise, if we're talking about "groups probably colluding with foreign interests and also making campaign contributions," you're going to have to cast a much wider net, because that list includes just about every oil company. I would be perfectly okay with outlawing both AIPAC and just about every oil company.
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Dec 6, 2014 20:41
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Cat Mattress posted:I would be perfectly okay with outlawing both AIPAC and just about every oil company. I don't like them either, but my post was responding to Panzeh accusing a large number of politicians of sedition (which normally means advocating or inciting revolution, so I'm not sure how it's applicable) by way of accepting money from Israeli intelligence agents to vote against US interests... Which was still a stupid thing to say. Foreign influence is hardly unique to Israel; tons of elected officials have made speeches affirming our "special relationship" with the UK, and Irish-American social welfare organizations (some of which were material supporters of terrorist groups in Northern Ireland) still have considerable clout in New England politics. There's a big jump from "I don't like it and it should probably be looked in to" to "it is uniquely bad and treasonous." Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 20:59
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Legalese aside, how is lobbyism in general not corrupt to the point it ought to be considered a treasonous activity. How attempting to influence the democratic process through bribery is not worthy of swift guillotine induced justice is beyond me. There's actually some buzz here in Israel about how the recent elections might have more to do with the fact many MKs were favorable towards a legislation that was supposed to limit Sheldon Edelson's ability to brainwash the masses with his freebie pro-Bibi newspaper. Paywall, maybe someone can C&P the article? http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.630097
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Dec 6, 2014 21:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Legalese aside, how is lobbyism in general not corrupt to the point it ought to be considered a treasonous activity. How attempting to influence the democratic process through bribery is not worthy of swift guillotine induced justice is beyond me.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:13
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Dead Reckoning posted:If folks were actually concerned about corruption in US elections, they'd be posting about it in the US Politics or campaign finance reform threads, not the Israel/Palestine thread. I'm amused that some posters can't point Israel doing something without taking a whole bunch of words to explain that Israel is doing it the Very Worst it's ever been done. Israel influences US politics with respect to its actions quite a bit. It seems reasonable, looking at how the US seems unreasonably attached to the country from any given geostrategic approach. The US is an important part of the I/P issue. It seems relevant to the thread.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:29
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People talk about it elsewhere. It's a huge issue.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:55
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