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There's no way The Lost is being buffed. He's like what the Blue Baby was supposed to be in the original, a bad character with some very specific advantages. If anything, he's more likely to get nerfed so that the Holy Mantle isn't as good on him.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:08
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Dr. Fetus posted:There's no way The Lost is being buffed. He's like what the Blue Baby was supposed to be in the original, a bad character with some very specific advantages. If anything, he's more likely to get nerfed so that the Holy Mantle isn't as good on him. How about "if The Lost gets hit, but the hit is negated by some form of damage reduction like Holy Mantle or Infamy, he gets the paralysis effect"? 
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Dec 8, 2014 17:10
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I'd already be happy if the lost was left unchanged, only no unlocks are tied to him. Just some achievements for those who hate their lives enough to not tolerate not having all the stupid achievements. That way everybody gets to have fun.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:15
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Sanctum posted:If anyone knows how to get through this room in the catacombs without eating poo poo I would love to know your secrets. I encounter this room a lot, and if I can't fly I always get a mouthful. Hahaha that's nothing, I came across a room that have 5 items total, one in each corner and one in the middle. The one in the middle was free and the ones in the corner were surrounded by the unbombable blocks with one key block. Pretty gamebreaking. They were all books but I had the D6 and they just rerolled into regular items.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:19
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2 free items if you have 2 bombs or flying. It was balanced out by having to fight the haunt and then gurglings on the next floor.
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Is experimental treatment ever worth picking up? It doesn't seem to actually do the all stats up part of the description.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:21
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Doctor Goat posted:Is experimental treatment ever worth picking up? It doesn't seem to actually do the all stats up part of the description. It works out sometimes, but is most of the time not worth the risk. It's usually worth it if you don't have many (or any) stat ups yet.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:22
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It's hilarious to see so many people get butthurt over a secret optional character that Ed basically put in the game to troll hardcore achievement-spergs. Seriously, nobody cares if you do or do not grab a handful of super difficult achievements in a single player game and you're not missing anything by just going for regular Plat God and calling it a day.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:40
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I honestly have no problems with the idea of Lost as he is, it's an insane challenge for sure but if in theory if you're good enough at the game it's perfectly doable. However.. The game isn't perfect. It's not fair. Like, at all. There are an insane amount of ways you can take damage purely from RNG, like enemies popping up underneath you, teleporting into you, literally filling the screen with projectiles, etc. It's really weird that 1) they hadn't thought about it and 2) that they haven't patch it yet. We're talking a few minutes of programming here to include a few conditions here and there (mainly "don't pop up at the same coordinates as the player"). And speaking of programming oversights, it seems a few enemies have entirely random attack patterns and thus can, in the worst situation, rapid fire for far too long (looking at you, Tumors!)
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Dec 8, 2014 17:43
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Almost like it's a Roguelike or something. Crazy.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:44
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Just saying "it's a roguelike v v" does not excuse individual pieces of the game that are fundamentally broken. The pop-up enemies in The Womb/Utero are an example of something legitimately broken, because they can pop up underneath you and cause damage that you have no way to avoid. The wormy guys in The Caves or Depths can't pop up beneath you, they're programmed to do so NEAR you but never on top of you.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:46
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excellent adherence to form, lady naga in my opinion, a roguelike/lite that regularly fucks you out of a win with no real fuckup on your part is a bad roguelike/lite
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Dec 8, 2014 17:47
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CJacobs posted:Just saying "it's a roguelike v Taking unavoidable damage and items that are strictly downgrades are things that are prominently featured in the genre and just because Isaac is real time, not turn based doesn't somehow change that.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:48
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If you don't have fun playing the lost, don't play the lost. Join me next week as I tell you not to place your hand on a red hot burner, and to stop staring right at the sun.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:52
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Lady Naga posted:Almost like it's a Roguelike or something. Crazy. Wow, I've never seen a more fitting red title. Lady Naga posted:Taking unavoidable damage and items that are strictly downgrades are things that are prominently featured in the genre and just because Isaac is real time, not turn based doesn't somehow change that. "Featuring prominently in the genre"[citation needed] doesn't make it good design.  I just think it would be a really fun character if they put a little bit more thought into it. Your Computer fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 17:53
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Your Computer posted:Wow, I've never seen a more fitting red title. Ha ha, yeah.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:54
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Lady Naga posted:Taking unavoidable damage and items that are strictly downgrades are things that are prominently featured in the genre and just because Isaac is real time, not turn based doesn't somehow change that.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:55
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Lady Naga posted:Almost like it's a Roguelike or something. Crazy. Doesn't even have to be in the Dota2 thread to do it! Remarkable form. Devil Wears Wings posted:you're not missing anything by just going for regular Plat God and calling it a day. his unlocks are cool and worth getting 
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Dec 8, 2014 17:55
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IronicDongz posted:In most games in the genre 'unavoidable damage' is something completely different because they are turn based and you recover HP over time, and also don't feature characters which die in literally one hit Nethack has gnomes with the wand of death, Dungeon Crawl devs [url=http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/faq#instadeath] specifically admitted they put in chances of random instant death[url], Angband has instadeath traps, etc. Whether or not it's "good design" is irrelevant, get used to it or don't play.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:05
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IGgy IGsen posted:I'd already be happy if the lost was left unchanged, only no unlocks are tied to him. Just some achievements for those who hate their lives enough to not tolerate not having all the stupid achievements. That way everybody gets to have fun. Dunno about the lost specifically but Edmund said he didn't like how quick fast the lost's unlock was figured out and anything like that in the future will be behind a skill wall rather than a puzzle.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:10
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Dr. Fetus posted:There's no way The Lost is being buffed. He's like what the Blue Baby was supposed to be in the original, a bad character with some very specific advantages. If anything, he's more likely to get nerfed so that the Holy Mantle isn't as good on him. I can kind of agree he shouldn't be buffed, but having items that do nothing for him just seems dumb/unfun. It's one thing for a bad item to be in your item room/boss drop, it's another for that item to be totally useless. HP ups really should do something else for him or at least be removed from the pool.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:14
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Lady Naga posted:Whether or not it's "good design" is irrelevant, get used to it or don't play. Also DCSS devs have been working to remove unavoidable death for a long time(ex:that one Xom vault with flame clouds that spawned in corridors could instakill mummies in autoexplore, so it was removed), and Angband and Nethack are both really poo poo games in general.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:18
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Hahaha, I just had the best ??? run. Death's Touch and Taurus carried me through most of it. The only really worthwhile thing in the shops was the Starter Deck, which I think spawned a Chaos Card when I bought it. Then I picked up a Jera rune in Womb I and lucked into an Angel Room with three Soul Hearts. Blew the Chaos Card on It Lives!, and got through the Cathedral mostly unscathed. My pickups at the start of The Chest included Spoon Bender, that damage-reducing mask, and My Little Unicorn—which finally replaced the goddamn Poop, as I hadn't come across a single other active item that run. Ran into my first double-Adversary room and only took a couple of hits, and picked up a Chariot card somewhere along the way. So I walked in to fight ??? with three different ways to become damage-on-touch invincible. I finally unlocked the D6 this run, plus I cleared the Chest for the first time as any character. Edit: Guys, quit gettin' mad at video games. Rollersnake fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 18:19
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Lady Naga posted:Taking unavoidable damage and items that are strictly downgrades are things that are prominently featured in the genre and just because Isaac is real time, not turn based doesn't somehow change that. Oh well poo poo if it's a mainstay of the genre then that's perfectly okay for it to be a game mechanic in this video game that 100% perfectly adheres to all roguelike tropes and gameplay mechanics (you're an idiot).
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Dec 8, 2014 18:20
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IronicDongz posted:Nah, I'll actually not happily accept poo poo game design, sorry. Criticism is good. I'm not asking you to "happily accept poo poo game design", I'm asking you to play a game in a different genre if you're not happy with the basic gameplay decisions in this one. I was smugly asked to provide examples of instadeath in roguelikes (oh the irony!) and I did so. Sorry if you're not happy with the examples given.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:25
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Tollymain posted:excellent adherence to form, lady naga FTL fits this description I think but I'd still consider it a really good roguelite. Frustrating as hell but still fun. I get where the irritation over the Lost is coming from, but chances are he is how the devs want him to be, an as-is hugely difficult pain in the rear end for us completionist spergs that want to have all the unlocks/cheevos. Since people have done it all legit in the relative short time the game has been out, the fact that its only a small fraction of the people who've played the game probably justifies it for them. P.s. If you want to play a roguelite where 99% of the time it feels like your death was your own fault I can't recommend Spelunky enough. Anyway, two things I've learned recently after getting RPG; 1) Thunder Thighs/Leo let's you crush red poop without getting hurt! However getting flight negates this benefit (BoI logic  ). 2) very specific circumstances, but the Callus trinket does NOT protect from Momma Gurdy's insta-spikes. Lame.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:27
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CJacobs posted:Oh well poo poo if it's a mainstay of the genre then that's perfectly okay for it to be a game mechanic in this video game that 100% perfectly adheres to all roguelike tropes and gameplay mechanics (you're an idiot). Ha ha, yeah. Edit: Isaac actually does adhere to pretty much all roguelike tropes and gameplay mechanics, just with different levels of abstraction
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Dec 8, 2014 18:28
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Like one third of the discussion in this thread is people complaining about the lost and about how certain challenges are bullshit. This is seriously bizarre, nobody gives a poo poo if you guys 100% some dumb rear end game and the level of vitriol some guys here muster about this poo poo is verging on sad. Just don't do the lost, don't do those challenges, don't get 100%, what's wrong with you all.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:35
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Like one third of the discussion in this thread is people complaining about the lost and about how certain challenges are bullshit. This is seriously bizarre, nobody gives a poo poo if you guys 100% some dumb rear end game and the level of vitriol some guys here muster about this poo poo is verging on sad. Just don't do the lost, don't do those challenges, don't get 100%, what's wrong with you all. People are complaining that some of the design is bugged or broken. I haven't seen a single person complaining about any part being 'hard' or something, it's the rooms that have design flaws that make it impossible.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:45
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I'm pretty sure the Lost was designed to be incredibly stupid bullshit that is incredibly frustrating. What's the debate about?
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Dec 8, 2014 18:48
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Just don't do the lost, don't do those challenges, don't get 100%, what's wrong with you all. Just don't play the game!  I mean, I've avoided playing the lost for this very reason, but I would like to get the items that are locked behind playing him at some point. I don't really see anything wrong in criticizing the design of The Lost. I can accept that he's supposed to be a super challenge, but I personally think he'd make for a much more fun and interesting character if there was a few tweaks made to him, rather then it just being a lazy "don't ever get hit" thing.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:48
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:People are complaining that some of the design is bugged or broken. I haven't seen a single person complaining about any part being 'hard' or something, it's the rooms that have design flaws that make it impossible. Yeah, some rooms seem broken sure, but people are acting like it's a freaking outrage that they'd get screwed over by the RNG where at the end of the day this is all just optional content in a game that is supposed to be somewhat difficult and frustrating, like Logan 5 said a couple of posts upstream, it's just there for sperg completionists to mull over. Just let it go, is all I'm saying, if you have fun getting to 97% and the final 3% is not enjoyable then just don't play it? Why do people care so much about this stupid 100% indicator? You guys do realize that Edmund was probably trying to annoy the completionist crowd intentionally? Yes this is a can of worm and I should have not made these posts, I know, for some people it is super important to get 100%, I just don't get it. Oxyclean posted:Just don't play the game! Don't think that's what I said, if you think you have to 100% every game you play that's kind of your thing man. quote:I mean, I've avoided playing the lost for this very reason, but I would like to get the items that are locked behind playing him at some point. I don't really see anything wrong in criticizing the design of The Lost. I can accept that he's supposed to be a super challenge, but I personally think he'd make for a much more fun and interesting character if there was a few tweaks made to him, rather then it just being a lazy "don't ever get hit" thing. Bear in mind that if Edmund had his way nobody would have even unlocked the Lost by now. The degree of frustration people are experiencing right now is nothing compared to what he had in mind. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 18:54
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Why the gently caress did they implement the Tourist class, it's so horribly unfun and broken, I keep dying unnecessarily! 
Lady Naga fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 18:55
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TheModernAmerican posted:I'm pretty sure the Lost was designed to be incredibly stupid bullshit that is incredibly frustrating. What's the debate about? I mean if the game crashed to desktop that would also make the lost less fun to play but that doesn't mean it's not the sort of thing that should be patched. Lost being hard is the absolute goal but that doesn't mean 'hey this was programmed wrong" is acceptable. Like it's frustrating in normal runs too that even non completionists play, it's just less annoying to take a broken hit when it's not the only hit you can take.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean if the game crashed to desktop that would also make the lost less fun to play but that doesn't mean it's not the sort of thing that should be patched. Lost being hard is the absolute goal but that doesn't mean 'hey this was programmed wrong" is acceptable. How do you know it's programmed wrong?
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Dec 8, 2014 19:05
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As someone who does not play many rougelikes, I don't understand your argument. You have adequately explained that having winning runs ruined through factors out of your control is a staple of the genre, but you haven't explained why that makes it okay.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:17
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Games should always be fair, even if they're bastards. The reason for this is that if you do that, the player can't blame anyone but themselves when they gently caress up, which is infinitely more rewarding.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:19
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Ariong posted:As someone who does not play many rougelikes, I don't understand your argument. You have adequately explained that having winning runs ruined through factors out of your control is a staple of the genre, but you haven't explained why that makes it okay. At the core of a roguelike is a slot machine. Your skill plays into it to some extent, but sooner or later in the end you're always at the mercy of the game, pushing the button over and over in eager anticipation of getting randomly rewarded or hosed over.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:22
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LaughMyselfTo posted:At the core of a roguelike is a slot machine. Your skill plays into it to some extent, but sooner or later in the end you're always at the mercy of the game, pushing the button over and over in eager anticipation of getting randomly rewarded or hosed over. Yes, but why does it have to be that way? What does that add? Surely it would be much more rewarding if you were able to play the hand you're dealt on a bad result, rather than being returned back to square one.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:25
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Doctor Goat posted:Games should always be fair, even if they're bastards. The reason for this is that if you do that, the player can't blame anyone but themselves when they gently caress up, which is infinitely more rewarding. What's "fair" really, is it fair to play a run where you get 0 damage ups and all item drops are active items which suck? Isaac is really fun most of the time, having a specific character that is neither fair nor fun was probably an intentional choice and I honestly don't see anything wrong with it, you've had people in this thread who've managed to get all the Lost achievements with less than 40 deaths while others had to reset, scam and glitch the game and still died hundreds of times, it seems like an acceptable design choice, he doesn't want people to easily get 100% in his game, why is this necessarily bad game design?
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Dec 8, 2014 19:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yeah, some rooms seem broken sure, but people are acting like it's a freaking outrage that they'd get screwed over by the RNG where at the end of the day this is all just optional content in a game that is supposed to be somewhat difficult and frustrating, like Logan 5 said a couple of posts upstream, it's just there for sperg completionists to mull over. Just let it go, is all I'm saying, if you have fun getting to 97% and the final 3% is not enjoyable then just don't play it? Why do people care so much about this stupid 100% indicator? Being self-admittedly one of those completionist spergs, I think its just par for the course to post our complaints and ideas for how to "fix" the Lost once you start trying to get runs with him going. Hell, I sure did in this thread. Still got there eventually though. I think people and spergs who got deep into the 1st game and eventually 100% it werent quite expecting this level of difficulty, and let's be honest, tedium with holding down r, in doing it with this one. Which is exactly why Edmund and the devs made it that way. But I don't think that many people here are truly that butthurt about it being super hard really, they're just venting frustration, and people that rightly dont give a gently caress are reading a bit too much into it. Kinda like most goon debates in any given thread really. Anyway blah blah blah kumbaya let's all chill out etc. etc. I like hearing people's ideas for Lost changes though, even if they'll never happen. Pretty sure if we had a poll starting with Holy Mantle would be #1.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:29
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