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TACD posted:Isn't this a fairly common religious perspective / fear? Without the fear of the Lord, there's nothing stopping those godless heathens from raping and murdering all day long! Which is another oddity contrasted with the idea that you should do what God tells you regardless of whether you understand it or not, that's almost the definition of amorality.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:38
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OwlFancier posted:Which is another oddity contrasted with the idea that you should do what God tells you regardless of whether you understand it or not, that's almost the definition of amorality. I am of the opinion that said idea is only true contextually. Again, in the Bible you have instances where God says something- usually with hyperbole- and Chosen Human, the example I pointed to earlier in the thread was Moses, talks them out of it. If the message was 'obey mindlessly', you'd think trying to talk God out of anything would result not in relenting but rather incineration-on-the-spot and for eternity. Besides, whenever someone says you should do what God commands without question what they usually mean is you should do what *I* say without question. Or, if they're very sincere, what *Mortal Religious Authority* says without question.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:50
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Nessus posted:You could probably make a theory that God does this in order to test the righteous, and the one who acts ethically is the righteous man who will be rewarded, while the one who obeys without question is the one who will be punished. I don't think the theory would hold much water though. After all, one, god is supposed to know and created all, so he already knows what you'll do because not only did he make you but set you off to do specific things in full knowledge of what you'd do. so this test is mostly pointless. Two, things where god orders atrocities in the bible, when he's too lazy to do them himself, those people that followed his orders are praised and such and rewarded by god.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:06
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Kyrie have you considered reckless self-endangerment? All the benefits of suicide but you still get to go to heaven. If you're a true believer its something to consider.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:12
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Ah just the thread I needed to bring me into The One True Church. An overzealous, self-loathing and self-righteous gay man getting increasingly angry at anyone questioning his (obviously) correct Mercury_Storm fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 20:13
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Kyrie, I didn't know where else to find you so I'll post this here. I've noticed your posting in GBS has been meanspirited and/or judgmental lately. I want to remind you of the duty the bible puts forth to us. Epehsians 4:32 posted:Be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:40
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- hi
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Who What Now posted:Says the guy who stated that all tragedies that befall the Jews are deserved punishments from God that they brought upon themselves. This is a point on which Kyrie was deliberately misconstrued. His original quote was in the context of the destruction of the Second Temple; there are indeed Jewish writers who have claimed this was a punishment from God. It's such a non-controversial point it's even on the Wikipedia page.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:03
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Cavaradossi posted:This is a point on which Kyrie was deliberately misconstrued. His original quote was in the context of the destruction of the Second Temple; there are indeed Jewish writers who have claimed this was a punishment from God. It's such a non-controversial point it's even on the Wikipedia page. Nope. Kyrie mentioned that the Jews punishments at any one time can be construed as God punishing them for not becoming Christian and for their practices. He in no way limited it to just the destruction of the temple. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 21:17
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Cavaradossi posted:This is a point on which Kyrie was deliberately misconstrued. His original quote was in the context of the destruction of the Second Temple; there are indeed Jewish writers who have claimed this was a punishment from God. It's such a non-controversial point it's even on the Wikipedia page. I really wish that were true, but: Kyrie eleison posted:Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:23
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Who What Now posted:I really wish that were true, but: No-wonder you're all so bad at interpreting the Bible...none of you understand context quote:If the Israelites had all chosen Christ (who is God) as their King, the uprising in Judea never would have occurred, and they never would have been routed by the Romans. Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:25
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Cavaradossi posted:No-wonder you're all so bad at interpreting the Bible...none of you understand context To my knowledge, no they don't - indeed some of the theological crises they experienced in relation to the Holocaust were because extremely devout and Orthodox communities were murdered, if anything, with greater gusto than half-assimilated German Jews. So contextually explain how what Kyrie is saying there, is not essentially 'the Jews agree they deserve to be massacred for killing Christ,' because I'm having a real hard time not seeing that there, if perhaps with some other emphases mixed in. However, since he also said Jews as we understand them are an obstinate anti-Christian faction of the one true religion (and that therefore modern Christians are the 'real' heirs of Jewish thought, teaching, and so on) this seems a little hard. What is more is that he's arguing a counterfactual. If Jesus had become king of the Jews, what would He have done - stayed in the Roman empire? Convert all the Romans? (I guess he managed that a few hundred years later.) Withdrawn, but this time he would've won the war, on account of being God?
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Dec 8, 2014 21:40
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Cavaradossi posted:No-wonder you're all so bad at interpreting the Bible...none of you understand context Quoting the whole thing doesn't change what he's saying which is why I cut it off, that when tragedy befalls the Jewish people it's their own fault. It's victim blaming on a (heh) biblical scale.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:43
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Cavaradossi posted:No-wonder you're all so bad at interpreting the Bible...none of you understand context Man this text must be sooooo good and based on truths and stuff because interpretation and things like wow man.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:46
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Nessus posted:To my knowledge, no they don't - indeed some of the theological crises they experienced in relation to the Holocaust This quote is not about the Holocaust, you really need to move on from that.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:47
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Cavaradossi posted:This quote is not about the Holocaust, you really need to move on from that. The Holocaust was certainly not the first time the Jews had been targeted for killings in Christian lands. That whole thread got started because Kyrie said (basically) "well, you know, I won't feel bad for these people amongst whom my Savior and his mother lived and were born being killed in cartload lots by my co-religionists, because in THEIR religious texts, they talked some poo poo about Jimmy-C." If you're just assuming I'm an irate Jew or whatever, let's move it elsewhere. Did the Albigensians all deserve to die for their infidelity to God? The Saracens whose primary crime was inhabiting a location of historical importance to Christianity when Christendom decided to come conquer it? Hell, the one place where Christians encountered a culture engaging in for-real human sacrifice, the friars were the ones calling for moderation - telling their fellow Christians to stop treating the Indians like disposable animals! Nessus fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 21:56
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so have we proven the existence of God yet?
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Dec 8, 2014 21:58
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yes
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Dec 8, 2014 21:59
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Nessus posted:So what is it about, if not "Jews deserve it when they're killed en masse"? It's about the uprising in Judea and the destruction of the Second Temple. Look at this massively anti Jewish site I've found: http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48944036.html quote:The destruction of the Second Temple is one of the most important events in the history of the Jewish people, and certainly one of the most depressing. What a massively controversial statement it is to say that the destruction of the Second Temple has been portrayed as a divine penalty.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:59
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Cavaradossi posted:This quote is not about the Holocaust, you really need to move on from that. Yeah, he was just talking about a previous genocide attempt, which is totally different from the last genocide attempt because...
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Dec 8, 2014 22:01
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Nessus posted:So what is it about, if not "Jews deserve it when they're killed en masse"? I think the statement is supposed to be specific, not general. Though whether it's accurate or not I can't say, my copy of the bible came with pictures.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:03
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icantfindaname posted:so have we proven the existence of God yet? Duh, what are you dense?
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Dec 8, 2014 22:03
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Cavaradossi posted:What a massively controversial statement it is to say that the destruction of the Second Temple has been portrayed as a divine penalty. If so that is fair. Kyrie seemed to be framing it as 'Jews killed Christ and denied him (but also secretly know he was the Messiah) and therefore are simultaneously engaging in a massive cultural doublethink, while also deserving everything they get or have gotten. Also, their religion is fake and Christianity is the real continuation of the historical religion of Israel.' Nessus fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 22:04
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personally i think the jews had it coming. if their god were real why did they keep getting owned so much? along with all those other failed religions scattered across the middle east. might makes right seems the logical way to select a religion to me. allahu ackbar or ave maria IMO
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Dec 8, 2014 22:05
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Nessus posted:OK, so you're saying THIS incident was a divine penalty, but that this case is not generalizable; i.e. not every misfortune visited collectively on the Jewish people is necessarily a punishment for their sins? I think the most important take away is that god isn't real so this whole argument is pointless.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:05
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Cavaradossi posted:It's about the uprising in Judea and the destruction of the Second Temple. He didn't say "when the destruction of the temple happened it was the Jews' fault because they pissed off God". He said "when the Jews are massacred it's their own fault for pissing off God."
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Dec 8, 2014 22:06
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icantfindaname posted:so have we proven the existence of God yet? Good news: yes! Bad news: God is either a) a petty bitch who will never forgive someone for childish insults but who is totally on board with Gamergate, death/rape threats and all, or b) Khorne, god of blood, war, and martial prowess. You owe our bloody lord some skulls. burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 22:07
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DrProsek posted:Good news: yes! Bad news: God is either a) a petty bitch who will never forgive someone for childish insults but who is totally on board with Gamergate, death/rape threats and all, or b) Khorne, god of blood, war, and martial prowess. You owe our blood lord some skulls.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:07
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Who What Now posted:He didn't say "when the destruction of the temple happened it was the Jews' fault because they pissed off God". He said "when the Jews are massacred it's their own fault for pissing off God." this argument works for all religious people anytime anything bad happens to them, by the way. it is a good argument
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Dec 8, 2014 22:09
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I really can't stress this enough guys: God isn't real.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:10
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Knifegrab posted:I really can't stress this enough guys: God isn't real. 
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Dec 8, 2014 22:11
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Oh no! Proof of his divinity. I was blind but now I see.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:14
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icantfindaname posted:this argument works for all religious people anytime anything bad happens to them, by the way. it is a good argument Which is funny because it means that God actually loves homosexuals because they gay-friendly district of New Orleans was the least damaged by Katrina despite many people saying it was God's retribution against them. Well, either that or God has lovely aim and/or gay sex can erect a God-repellent force field. So if you're ever worried about getting smote by the Lord look for the nearest pair of genitals that look a lot like yours and dive in.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:19
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Nessus posted:Kyrie seemed to be framing it as 'Jews killed Christ and denied him (but also secretly know he was the Messiah) and therefore are simultaneously engaging in a massive cultural doublethink, while also deserving everything they get or have gotten. Also, their religion is fake and Christianity is the real continuation of the historical religion of Israel.' And at least the part about Christianity being the continuation of Israel is the Catholic position eg perhaps http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/replacement_theology.php quote:The Church is not a replacement for Israel of old, but an unbroken continuation of Israel under the promised King and Messiah of Israel, and His Church is His Kingdom of Israel, expanded to include all the Gentile peoples of the earth. What we're discussing here is salvation history. After the Fall, God needed to save the human race. So He worked to establish a series of covenants, and eventually became incarnate and redeemed original sin. With Noah, God established a covenant that he would never again destroy the world. With Abraham, He established a chosen people, To Moses, He gave the law and a land With David, He founded an everlasting kingdom The prophets, then John the Baptist, foretold the final salvation and the coming of the Messiah. Then Christ's Passion heals us from sin and reunites us with God (and fulfils the Law: ie completes it, therefore Mosaic Law no longer applies).
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Dec 8, 2014 22:20
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Poland is pretty good proof of this as well. Catholic as gently caress Poland gets stomped on/genocided by its Protestant, Orthodox, and Atheist neighbors pretty regularly. Only reason there is a Poland today is because the rest of Europe wanted to dick with the German Empire really, if Germany had lost before Russia quit the war there wouldn't be a Poland today.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:25
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Cavaradossi posted:What we're discussing here is salvation history. After the Fall, God needed to save the human race. So He worked to establish a series of covenants, and eventually became incarnate and redeemed original sin. He destroys the world in the first place, apparently. (Does the Catholic church teach the literal truth of the Flood?) Abraham, OK I suppose Moses, there certainly seemed to be people there in the first place; God seems to endorse this purging, which I suppose does set a bit of a precedent. David's kingdom doesn't seem to be all that ever-lasting considering that it got wrecked and even if you consider modern Israel to be a replacement, it's certainly not a monarchy. The Christian conception of the Messiah seems to be fundamentally different from the Jewish one, even if of course they have some things in common, such as the title (more or less). This seems to make it difficult to reconcile the two; you might say the Jews are incorrect, of course, but it seems hard to say "No, you don't understand your religion right." The difference between "your premises are mistaken" and "you don't understand your own research," so to speak.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:28
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OwlFancier posted:Which is another oddity contrasted with the idea that you should do what God tells you regardless of whether you understand it or not, that's almost the definition of amorality. 
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Dec 8, 2014 22:54
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 Now we just need to find a way to merger Kyrie's disdain for Jews with TT's "International Lords of Finance" bit.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:55
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Nessus posted:Does the Catholic church teach the literal truth of the Flood? Not really. The flood is more important in that it prefigures salvation by baptism (CCC 1219) Nessus posted:David's kingdom doesn't seem to be all that ever-lasting considering that it got wrecked and even if you consider modern Israel to be a replacement, it's certainly not a monarchy. Christ is the eternal King descended from David.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:59
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DrProsek posted:Poland is pretty good proof of this as well. Catholic as gently caress Poland gets stomped on/genocided by its Protestant, Orthodox, and Atheist neighbors pretty regularly. Only reason there is a Poland today is because the rest of Europe wanted to dick with the German Empire really, if Germany had lost before Russia quit the war there wouldn't be a Poland today. drat papists betrayed the true apostolic church, they deserve it :orthodoxcrying:
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Dec 8, 2014 23:01
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Cavaradossi posted:Christ is the eternal King descended from David. No, a cuckold descended from David.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:06
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