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Cavaradossi posted:And at least the part about Christianity being the continuation of Israel is the Catholic position No no, actually Mormonism is the world's oldest, and therefore Only Correct religion. We know this because the holy books say Moromonism began 6,000 years ago with Adam and Eve in Missouri. Throughout history, heretics and satan-worshippers who know in their hearts that Mormonism is true have split from the true Church: first the Jews and then the Muslims rejected Jesus, then the evil schismatic Catholic and Orthodox Churches broke away, and then when God sent His angel to Joseph Smith to correct the false Trinitarian teachings, the Protestant Churches decided to throw their lot in with the Satan-worshipping Catholics and split from God's True Church out of spite and love of sin.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:07
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Nessus posted:The Christian conception of the Messiah seems to be fundamentally different from the Jewish one, even if of course they have some things in common, such as the title (more or less). This seems to make it difficult to reconcile the two; you might say the Jews are incorrect, of course, but it seems hard to say "No, you don't understand your religion right." The difference between "your premises are mistaken" and "you don't understand your own research," so to speak. the jews think the Messiah is supposed to be a warrior-king culture hero to lead the Master Race Hebrews to ultimate victory over everyone who isn't them / who Yahweh doesn't like the christians reinterpret the 'tribe of Israel'/hebrews to mean all men, and the messiah to be a figure who frees humanity from original sin and the punishment of the angry, genocidal god. but you're also supposed to hate yourself because of original sin, and not hating yourself is pride, another sin, so i say it's not much better icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 23:10
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SedanChair posted:No, a cuckold descended from David. One of the genealogies from David is that of Mary; in addition, Joseph was Christ's legal father and therefore Christ was also of the house of David through Joseph. Catholics are not against adoption.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:10
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Cavaradossi posted:Not really. The flood is more important in that it prefigures salvation by baptism (CCC 1219) quote:Christ is the eternal King descended from David.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:11
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Nessus posted:How so? Most of the people who got in the water died. Exactly - the sinners died, and the good emerged from the waters. "Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God". Nessus posted:On his mother's side, I assume. On both.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:15
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Nessus posted:How so? Most of the people who got in the water died. That does, in fairness, solve a lot of their problems, and stop them from sinning any more.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:17
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Cavaradossi posted:Exactly - the sinners died, and the good emerged from the waters. "Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God". That the flood story is the Hebrew version of part of Gilgamesh gives us all sorts of cool insights into their ways of thought as a comparative versus the Babylonian worldview.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:18
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Cavaradossi posted:Exactly - the sinners died, and the good emerged from the waters. "Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God".
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Dec 8, 2014 23:18
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Nessus posted:But... they were on a boat! They didn't get in the water. I'm sure they got damp of course, but that was kind of the point. The same as the crossing of the Red Sea! It's like there was some sort of plan tying it all together.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:21
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Cavaradossi posted:The same as the crossing of the Red Sea!
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Dec 8, 2014 23:23
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Nessus posted:This makes it sound like you should avoid water to go to Heaven. The water of the sea is a symbol of death. Sin is destroyed in the water, as sin was destroyed by Christ's death. To be baptised is to die with Christ, and then to be resurrected to new life.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:27
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Cavaradossi posted:The water of the sea is a symbol of death. Sin is destroyed in the water, as sin was destroyed by Christ's death. To be baptised is to die with Christ, and then to be resurrected to new life. actually those who accept christ in their hearts will not die but have eternal life welp looks like you're getting burned at the stake, inquisition rules  . minor syntactic and theological points are the most important after all
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Dec 8, 2014 23:29
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icantfindaname posted:actually those who accept christ in their hearts will not die but have eternal life CCC 1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature." CCC 1227 According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ's death, is buried with him, and rises with him: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:31
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Wait where are these Marian genealogies supposed to come from? Luke?
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Dec 8, 2014 23:34
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I am moderately jealous of Christians for having a somewhat legitimate reason to use the word 'catechumen'.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:38
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Cavaradossi posted:CCC 1214 does "baptized into Christ's death" mean the same thing as "died with Christ"? didn't think so. off to the mines with you
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Dec 8, 2014 23:39
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SedanChair posted:Wait where are these Marian genealogies supposed to come from? Luke? Not really. There are apocrypha giving her descent from the house of David (and also from Aaron, via her relationship to Elizabeth - King and Priest).
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Dec 8, 2014 23:53
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icantfindaname posted:does "baptized into Christ's death" mean the same thing as "died with Christ"? didn't think so. off to the mines with you Really the Bible is very clear on this Romans 6 5 If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his; 6 realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. 7 Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. 8 But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:56
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Cavaradossi posted:CCC 1214 Again though you're forgetting its all a dumb book of made of stories and allegories worshipping a thing that isn't real so all your points kind of fall flat.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:57
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Knifegrab posted:Again though you're forgetting its all a dumb book of made of stories and allegories worshipping a thing that isn't real so all your points kind of fall flat. What's wrong with stories?
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Dec 9, 2014 00:06
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Knifegrab posted:Again though you're forgetting its all a dumb book of made of stories and allegories worshipping a thing that isn't real so all your points kind of fall flat.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:08
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Cavaradossi posted:Not really. There are apocrypha giving her descent from the house of David (and also from Aaron, via her relationship to Elizabeth - King and Priest). Yeah no.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:42
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Cavaradossi posted:The same as the crossing of the Red Sea! Or some pretty heavy post hoc rationalizing. One of the two.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:05
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Has his thread earned any converts yet?
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Dec 9, 2014 01:08
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Cavaradossi posted:What's wrong with stories? Nothing but this thread is about the only thing that matters: Jesus Christ.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:13
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Knifegrab posted:Nothing but this thread is about the only thing that matters: Jesus Christ. I think if this thread just became a straight up red-letter Jesus thread that would be pretty amazing quote:Why do you call me: Master, Master, and do not do what I say?
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Dec 9, 2014 01:47
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Cavaradossi posted:What a massively controversial statement it is to say that the destruction of the Second Temple has been portrayed as a divine penalty. The Jewish view of the destruction of the Second Temple is massively different from what Kyrie proposed. Kyrie is stating that the Second Temple was destroyed and God's people massacred because they rejected their messiah. This is obviously not the Jewish view of the situation, as they do not consider Jesus the messiah. The fact that Jews agree that the Temple falling was punishment doesn't make Kyrie's statement defensible. An atheist wouldn't use Hindu beliefs of the age of the universe as support for why Young Earth Creationists are wrong, even if Hindus believe that the universe is extremely old (in fact, they believe the universe is much, much older than science claims it is).
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Dec 9, 2014 01:50
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gohmak posted:Has his thread earned any converts yet? To Khorne and others of the dark powers, sadly yes. To the God-Emperor of mankind, unfortunately no.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:51
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Knifegrab posted:Nothing but this thread is about the only thing that matters: Jesus Christ. Right that's a story. One people try to explain history and their lives with. The question of "Is it myth/story?" is not the same as "Is it true myth/story?" Then there is, is this part or that part true myth in a literal, moral, or a spiritual sense?
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Dec 9, 2014 02:05
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Twelve by Pies posted:The Jewish view of the destruction of the Second Temple is massively different from what Kyrie proposed. Kyrie is stating that the Second Temple was destroyed and God's people massacred because they rejected their messiah. This is obviously not the Jewish view of the situation, as they do not consider Jesus the messiah. The fact that Jews agree that the Temple falling was punishment doesn't make Kyrie's statement defensible. An atheist wouldn't use Hindu beliefs of the age of the universe as support for why Young Earth Creationists are wrong, even if Hindus believe that the universe is extremely old (in fact, they believe the universe is much, much older than science claims it is). Plus there is a difference between a people seeing an act as God's divine punishment and an outsider having the same view.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:23
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Cavaradossi posted:This quote is not about the Holocaust, you really need to move on from that. So when did Jewish Massacres stop being punishments from God?
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Dec 9, 2014 02:28
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Rhjamiz posted:So when did Jewish Massacres stop being punishments from God? I don't think Cavaradossi ever claimed that? They appear to be a real Catholic who took catechism, not an anime fan who used Catholicism as the central fetish of his episode.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:33
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Cavaradossi posted:The same as the crossing of the Red Sea! People who read one old book included similar themes when writing a sequel? You don't say.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:44
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Cavaradossi posted:One of the genealogies from David is that of Mary; in addition, Joseph was Christ's legal father and therefore Christ was also of the house of David through Joseph. Catholics are not against adoption. Then why do both Matthew and Luke's genealogies claim to be that of Joseph's? Also, which of the two is Mary's?
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Dec 9, 2014 03:00
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Kyrie: You never answered my question. It may have gotten lost amongst some of the others. A genuine question: How do you justify the fact that tribes, such as the ancient Native Americans, or precursors to Australian aborigines, who lived in complete isolating and could not possibly have heard of Jesus within a generation of his coming, are doomed to spend eternity in Hell? Do you feel that God has an absolute moral code, and that makes it okay for them to suffer, or is there some other explanation?
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Dec 9, 2014 04:32
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gohmak posted:Has his thread earned any converts yet? It turned me gay. Does that count?
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Dec 9, 2014 05:27
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SedanChair posted:I don't think Cavaradossi ever claimed that? They appear to be a real Catholic who took catechism, not an anime fan who used Catholicism as the central fetish of his episode. Well, he's defending Kyrie's statement with "context!" so I'm trying to clarify when the statement of "Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God" stops being true.
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Dec 9, 2014 05:45
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Rhjamiz posted:it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God" stops being true. Sure, God seemed great at first, with all that sweet talk to Abraham. But then he started getting weird. The Jews went to a couple of parties with another deity, then God's suddenly setting bushes on fire and laying down really strict "ground rules" for the relationship. But he was still pretty reliable, and the Jews were in a rough place at the time, so they stuck with him. Then things got worse. The Babylonians, this that and the other. Instead of being there for his people, like a good guy should, God got all angry and kept telling the Jews it was their own fault. He started making wild accusations about them seeing other deities on the side. He needed, like, constant praise, and the second the Jews even had a conversation with some other group, God would flip out and start sending invading armies, constant text messages, etc. Things just went downhill from there. At some point the Jews started bickering with him, and among themselves, constantly...and then there was the Holocaust thing and man...they need a restraining order.
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Dec 9, 2014 08:20
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Kyrie eleison posted:Who says I am not speaking out of love? What am I doing here? Aren't you the people who say, "if you really believed in Hell you would try to save everyone?" And here I am, trying to save D&D.  yeah! yeah! hit 'em!
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Dec 9, 2014 10:38
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Kyrie eleison posted:Here is the thing about debate that I have realized (long ago): debate is not constructive. Debate is destructive. Debate is about taking your opponent down. Two sides take opposing positions and try to destroy one another, and ultimately leave more convinced of their views. Debate is a political act, a warlike act, a battle. The goal is to impose your policy on your opponent. I don't like debate, although I am willing to participate in it. It seems almost violent to me. First, debate can be constructive. If you go into it in the right frame of mind. If your long ago experiences lead you to believe that debate was not constructive then don't take part in it - because for you it never will be. But in the service of trying to understand each other I have the same question for you as I do for others who believe approximately as you do. The word Gospel literally means Good news. The beliefs you are preaching appear to me to be that there is a sovereign entity over the universe who judges that people will be tortured eternally (don't make me dig out the Summa Theologica to prove this - and the Summa Theologica also claims that heaven destroys compassion for those in heaven "will rejoice in the sufferings of the damned"). He has people tortured beyond all measure. At this point I don't care what else God does. If God is sovereign over Hell (as by your theology God is), and God knowingly condemns anyone to eternal torment, this is such a platonically evil act that God can not be other than the most evil being possible. The problem isn't just the Sovereignty of God. It's that God then uses that sovereignty to perpetuate evil because such is pleasing to God. As such the only moral act I can see involves spitting in God's eye. (And preferably regicide if possible). I'm not sure I'd have the bravery to do this. But can you tell me why when I hear the doctrine of hell preached I should assume that it's part of some good thing any more than I would if I saw any other heinous acts.
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Dec 9, 2014 12:33
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