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Zeitgueist posted:Yes, I get it, when people talk about huge swathes of groups they're always talking about those types, because otherwise they might come off as being a piece of poo poo. But will you complain about being called an rear end in a top hat for equating what I said with racism? Where do you come up with this poo poo? You just read the first loving sentence and went on a tangent. If you think these ideologies are wholly compatible, then put out some reasons why. I said they were incompatible.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:50
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Nevvy Z posted:I was wondering how long it would take him to puppetmaster. The best was when he kept insisting about it for 5 more posts. He's posted like 3x the Dude, this flame died down about two-three pages ago. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up right now if you're so tired with it.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:52
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of anyone else here, but he's totes puppetmastering. You all lost your minds at his bad word. Really, you did. Now stop quoting him so I don't have to read his posts.
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Job Truniht posted:They exist. I just posted a video of them in Portland a few pages back, doing exactly what I said they'd do. They exist in the same way that people scamming welfare exist. It's not significant. And if you obsess over them and go out of your way to only look for them then of course it's all you're going to find. It's like saying "I typed 'brown dog' into google and it's all brown dogs! Where are the black dogs?"
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Dec 9, 2014 00:54
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Job Truniht posted:But will you complain about being called an rear end in a top hat for equating what I said with racism? Where do you come up with this poo poo? You just read the first loving sentence and went on a tangent. You're not complaining about an ideology, you're complaining about a caricature that exists, at best, at a fringe that's even tinier than the fringe that is "leftist activism". Complaining about Tumblr/SJW's is just the standard well-poisoning that Limbaugh did with "Feminazi", a term used today and one of the reasons that I and other feminists get to enjoy "I just want equality regardless of gender, but I'm no feminist" It's the new "PC Police" and everybody 20 years ago also claimed they were talking about the craaaaaaazy ones when in truth they were upset they couldn't pass n****r jokes around the office. Most every decently functioning leftist group I've ever encountered is very loving serious about their feminism.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:57
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Job Truniht isn't complaining about a caricature. He's complaining about the constant side derails that bring down leftist conversation. That poo poo about feminazis was contributed by someone else.Gantolandon posted:Dude, this flame died down about two-three pages ago. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up right now if you're so tired with it. People were literally quoting him on the last page. Job Truniht posted:They exist. I just posted a video of them in Portland a few pages back, doing exactly what I said they'd do. I kind of get where you are going with this because it would be a huge pain in the rear end to deal with but at the same time it's pretty much peak white privilege to say that minorities and women can't talk about issues affecting them. And you got agreed with by some ridiculous rear end in a top hat and are getting lumped in with him. Instead of banning it from leftist conversations, maybe try to encourage focused topics. No ones perfect, so when you have a big tent and you let one group freak out over a speaker who tangentially offends them that just doesn't work. It's not like that guy magically gets to make all the rules, so maybe they should let him talk about what he's 'knowledgeable' on and boo when he says a specific stupid thing related to what they are knowledgeable about. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 01:01
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Who What Now posted:They exist in the same way that people scamming welfare exist. It's not significant. And if you obsess over them and go out of your way to only look for them then of course it's all you're going to find. It's like saying "I typed 'brown dog' into google and it's all brown dogs! Where are the black dogs?" At first it was "they don't exist", then "they don't exist outside they internet", and then it was "they exist but don't matter". Zeitgueist posted:You're not complaining about an ideology, you're complaining about a caricature that exists, at best, at a fringe that's even tinier than the fringe that is "leftist activism". It doesn't make any of these people less awful, or any of your defense of them less contemptible. You cannot simultaneously decry blanket message when applying blanket defense for that special snowflake of an ideology you're trying to protect. If you cannot make that dissimilarity, if you're not willing to make that dissimilarity, then leftism is doomed. Virtually every publication I read on the failures of OWS have quickly pointed to its incoherent bullshit it pedaled as it went. It'll be OWS every single time. It'll be feel good bullshit against the powers that be who are quite willing and able to use violence to keep their interest. None of those ideologies I described are core leftist tenants. You don't have to be a leftist to pursue any of those agendas. You can pursue those agendas entirely within context within the already existing system. It's like calling Democrats leftist. At some point, people are going to think you're absurd. The fact that you are bringing this into question makes me believe that you believe it's debatable that class alone isn't good enough of an issue.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:10
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Job Truniht posted:At first it was "they don't exist", then "they don't exist outside they internet", and then it was "they exist but don't matter". You're attempting to conflate a caricature of people you want to exist with a movement. The people you are trying to say exist largely do not, they are a caricature, which is why I brought up racism and welfare queens, and PC Police. This is the same stupid argument retread with different details. Some people with some of the aspects that you are complaining out for sure exist. No academic feminist or notable activist has ever said "all hetero sex is rape" that I know of, but I'm sure some Freshman Woman's Studies kid has said that unironically. No doubt. It's also not a big deal. Welfare Queens don't exist as Reagan described, and while some folks do defraud public services, it's usually very small in both severity and incidence. Reagan knew what he was pitching, it was part of his long history of coded racism. PC Police is an even better example because it's essentially the same thing, with the same folks making the same arguments. It's basically deja-vu for anyone who's lived through both. quote:The fact that you are bringing this into question makes me believe that you believe it's debatable that class alone isn't good enough of an issue. Class isn't enough, on it's own. It's never just class, it's a lot of things including class. "It's not about race/gender, it's about class" - Every rear end in a top hat white person I've ever met in a leftist context in the process of irritating and alienating all their minority/woman comrades. You're trying to say that this destroyed Occupy but that's a bullshit narrative, I can tell you for sure that one of the things seriously damaged Los Angeles was exactly what you're doing. The whites(who make up a tiny portion of the activist community out here) went about alienating every oppressed group there is, and that's not even including RCP's assholes. And yes, a common refrain was "It's about class, stop bringing up race" in response to racism.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:19
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Zeitgueist posted:You're not complaining about an ideology, you're complaining about a caricature that exists, at best, at a fringe that's even tinier than the fringe that is "leftist activism". Seriously what happened to culture? It seemed like we were about to get all this poo poo handled back in like 1990. Naomi Wolf was on TV and everybody had an X hat. Did Rush Limbaugh really single-handedly orchestrate the strategic dominance of reactionary America? Because it seems like that's what happened.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:25
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Yes. I just got a check actually.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:29
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Zeitgueist posted:You're attempting to conflate a caricature of people you want to exist with a movement. The people you are trying to say exist largely do not, they are a caricature, which is why I brought up racism and welfare queens, and PC Police. This is the same stupid argument retread with different details. I think any serious leftist fears, deep down, that there may be a social issue that the capitalists can use to divide them. History conflates with this narrative. Zeitgueist posted:Some people with some of the aspects that you are complaining out for sure exist. No academic feminist or notable activist has ever said "all hetero sex is rape" that I know of, but I'm sure some Freshman Woman's Studies kid has said that unironically. No doubt. It's also not a big deal. I'll reiterate: I don't disagree with feminism. I just don't think it holds a place in leftism. Zeitgueist posted:Welfare Queens don't exist as Reagan described, and while some folks do defraud public services, it's usually very small in both severity and incidence. Reagan knew what he was pitching, it was part of his long history of coded racism. Would that make my argument about divisiveness any less? Zeitgueist posted:Class isn't enough, on it's own. It's never just class, it's a lot of things including class. I don't think that anything otherwise is anything but utopian. I have a particular distaste for utopianism. Zeitgueist posted:You're trying to say that this destroyed Occupy but that's a bullshit narrative, I can tell you for sure that one of the things seriously damaged Los Angeles was exactly what you're doing. The whites(who make up a tiny portion of the activist community out here) went about alienating every oppressed group there is, and that's not even including RCP's assholes. And yes, a common refrain was "It's about class, stop bringing up race" in response to racism. Was it the white protestors or what the police did to them? I'm pretty sure the police was going to do what the police was going to do no matter what, because they also have something to lose. I've better idea than censorship. All you have to do is just show them what leftists do/did. Show what POUM did, show what the Bolshevicks did, show what FARC, show what the Red Army did, and what other revolutionary groups did. That alone would scare off the people who shouldn't be there. I think leftism failed because leftists fail to reconcile with its fairly violent past. Leftist politics is revolutionary politics. It's that silver bullet that simply cannot be dodged.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:33
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Nevvy Z posted:Does anyone have the study handy where people would, generally, rather have $50 and everyone else $20 than everyone have $70? And more importantly, is there any evidence that this can be applied to other things? Because that's a pretty obvious place where we can apply privilege theory. Poor whites still have white privilege, and they may want to keep it specifically because they enjoy having superiority where they can get it.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:45
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SedanChair posted:As you struggle to your feet, you realize this is not really a ditch and is more of a culvert. You have been laying in what is, in essence, a shallow depression in the ground. GO WEST
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Dec 9, 2014 01:45
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Job Truniht posted:At first it was "they don't exist", then "they don't exist outside they internet", and then it was "they exist but don't matter". As you become increasingly pedantic so must I. Weird how that is, huh?
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Dec 9, 2014 02:00
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Job Truniht posted:I'll reiterate: I don't disagree with feminism. I just don't think it holds a place in leftism. Yes why would gender equality have anything to do with a movement for social equality.  quote:Was it the white protestors or what the police did to them? I'm pretty sure the police was going to do what the police was going to do no matter what, because they also have something to lose. It doesn't have to just one. There's a bunch of reasons why LA somehow is a huge city without a functional Occupy group still in existence(sections/suburbs still do, but not LA proper), one of them is poo poo that I just talked about. Another is a concerted and sophisticated infiltration, in addition to flat out brutality. LAPD is pro at that poo poo, they've been doing it for decades and that's well documented. There are other things, but you also had a certain amount of "It's about class and not race and anyone bringing up race or gender is a police plant trying to sow discord"
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Dec 9, 2014 02:04
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The it's about class not race, kinda went out the window when Trayvon was murdered in an upper class community, and the 800 pound gorilla is actually minority poverty not loving "blacks contributing ALOT to violence." Edit: Martin was not rich exactly either, and it seems perceptions by Zimmerman contributed to that case, but it worked out in a different way with Zimmerman of course as he was not law enforcement nor was he denied a trial. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 02:15
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Nonsense posted:The it's about class not race, kinda went out the window when Trayvon was murdered in an upper class community, and the 800 pound gorilla is actually minority poverty not loving "blacks contributing ALOT to violence."  "upper class community"
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Dec 9, 2014 02:27
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Do those Florida Townhomes™ have STAIRS IN THEM???
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Dec 9, 2014 02:34
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SedanChair posted:
 "Upper-class" is stretching it for most people, but it's nicer than anything I've ever lived in.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:46
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You could get a 30yr mortgage for one of those units for less than $500/mo if your interest isn't sky high.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:54
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I didn't have no gate. gently caress yall.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:56
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tbqh the gate is loving stupid, easy as poo poo to walk around, and easy to drive around! Just throw a loving cookie sheet or some rare earth magnets over the loop on the other side that tells it "CAR WANTS TO LEAVE" and, welp, it opens right up. So just drive in the out gate. Or wait for someone to go in and tailgate them out. Heh, tailergate. All this poo poo really does is make it hard for delivery guys and emergency vehicles to get in.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:01
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Helsing posted:Do you really think any political forum would look much better? The internet doesn't exactly bring out the best in most people when it comes to debates like this one and the right wingers and liberals in D&D don't exactly distinguish themselves in terms of ideas or personal conduct. I don't know if D&D is uniquely bad. Honestly I think that's beside the point.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:04
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I hardly ever take part in these conversations because they are so drat painful for me. I get infuriated with all this poo poo about Social Justice Warrior and Tumblr as if it is some kind of boogeyman. There is a thread in Games about GTA V where the conversation started heading in the direction of maybe having a female protagonist and you pretty much got expected results even though 15 percent of the fanbase is female. Then I remember a thread where a lot of goons lost their poo poo, over the notion that White opinions can be worth less than minority opinions on racial matters. The funny thing about that is that minority opinions are often seen as worthless in almost all matters. But there was this one aspect of society where people just lost their poo poo at not being seen as equals in the conversation.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:22
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Wanting a place isn't wanting to be in charge. Wanting to not have some kid say "sit down/shut up" if you're anything but subservient is pretty fair for people who want to belong to a movement to fix society. Instead a lot of this is all about the people who get to score dem points with sick burns and dismissive snark *kickflips out of this post*
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Dec 9, 2014 04:25
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Space Whale posted:Wanting a place isn't wanting to be in charge. Wanting to not have some kid say "sit down/shut up" if you're anything but subservient is pretty fair for people who want to belong to a movement to fix society. "I want to be in a movement to fix society, except for the wrongs that I personally exemplify"
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Dec 9, 2014 04:28
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Muscle Tracer posted:"I want to be in a movement to fix society, except for the wrongs that I personally exemplify" Having different life experiences - wrongs.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:30
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Space Whale posted:Having different life experiences - wrongs. Those different life experiences often make you blind to racial and gender issues. But I'm going to stop talking about it, because this is definitely headed to a bad direction.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:37
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My own life experiences and what I've missed out on give me a materially different background than most people I meet. Following the privilege logic exactly, I could prattle on about filial privilege if you're not an orphan, food having privileges, not being in poverty for a decade privilege, not getting traumatized with watching people die way too young privilege, and so on. Lots of different ways in which I've suffered has colored me. Except there aren't a lot of people like me so I can't get a bunch of people to make up new words in academia to talk about it. I just bring it up as an individual, and I'm told it doesn't count since my whiteness just... washes over it all. Hmm... NAHHH, I'm just a bougie because I can sunburn, that poo poo didn't happen 
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Dec 9, 2014 04:37
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Space Whale posted:Having different life experiences - wrongs. you were talking about "subservience" there, not life experiences. Space Whale posted:My own life experiences and what I've missed out on give me a materially different background than most people I meet. Following the privilege logic exactly, I could prattle on about filial privilege if you're not an orphan, food having privileges, not being in poverty for a decade privilege, not getting traumatized with watching people die way too young privilege, and so on. Lots of different ways in which I've suffered has colored me. "my intersectionality is the only moral intersectionality"
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Dec 9, 2014 04:38
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SedanChair posted:Seriously what happened to culture? It seemed like we were about to get all this poo poo handled back in like 1990. Naomi Wolf was on TV and everybody had an X hat. Did Rush Limbaugh really single-handedly orchestrate the strategic dominance of reactionary America? Because it seems like that's what happened. Overreach by leftist activists led to a fracturing of of the left-liberal coalition and a backlash by reactionary forces. As we watch it happen all over again, I can't help but wonder if some people want to trigger that backlash because it will let them sink deeper into their narcissistic sense of righteous aggrievement. Job Truniht posted:I think any serious leftist fears, deep down, that there may be a social issue that the capitalists can use to divide them. History conflates with this narrative. The reality is that so much of "white privilege" or "male privilege" is said to be the sort of thing that no decent human being would really object to losing. Dismantling class privilege means attacking a system which provides the bourgeoisie with great material rewards, which is why self-described leftists love to bleat about how they'd have no problem with giving up the "privilege to commit sexual violence with relative impunity"(well, most of them wouldn't, there are a few exceptions...) but hate to talk about giving up their far more concrete and substantial class privilege.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:41
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blackguy32 posted:Those different life experiences often make you blind to racial and gender issues. But I'm going to stop talking about it, because this is definitely headed to a bad direction. Focusing on race and gender issues can make you blind to other problems people have, and the #800 gorilla of class is still busy sitting in the corner waiting to be relevant again. Muscle Tracer posted:"my intersectionality is the only moral intersectionality" Isn't the point of intersectionality... everyone? Wait, there are multiple intersectionalities?? 
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Dec 9, 2014 04:43
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The Insect Court posted:The reality is that so much of "white privilege" or "male privilege" is said to be the sort of thing that no decent human being would really object to losing. Dismantling class privilege means attacking a system which provides the bourgeoisie with great material rewards, which is why self-described leftists love to bleat about how they'd have no problem with giving up the "privilege to commit sexual violence with relative impunity"(well, most of them wouldn't, there are a few exceptions...) but hate to talk about giving up their far more concrete and substantial class privilege. Proles fussing about an equal share of table scraps from Capital doled out to the people who actually do their work must be absolutely hilarious to the rich.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:45
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Space Whale posted:Focusing on race and gender issues can make you blind to other problems people have, and the #800 gorilla of class is still busy sitting in the corner waiting to be relevant again. You know when you enter into a conversation on racial issues, the worst thing you can try to do is change the subject to talk about yourself or your own pet issues or how its really about class.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:47
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Space Whale posted:Having different life experiences - wrongs. The problem is that you, as an individual, are an obnoxious dumbass who is seemingly posting literally anything you can think of to get people to pay attention to you. You don't get to waffle between 1) using this thread as some kind of substitute for an actual social life because you've apparently got noting better to do on a Friday night 2) bragging about how you're a trolling puppet master and 3) crying foul about how people aren't giving you the respect you deserve. Or at least, you don't get to do all those things and then still expect to be taken seriously. wateroverfire posted:I don't know if D&D is uniquely bad. Honestly I think that's beside the point. How is it "beside the point" when your entire argument was that D&D somehow embodies "leftist tendencies"?
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Dec 9, 2014 04:48
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Space Whale posted:Isn't the point of intersectionality... everyone? Wait, there are multiple intersectionalities?? Exactly, which is why the idea of "leftism, except without gender or race discussions" is ridiculous and childish
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Dec 9, 2014 04:48
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blackguy32 posted:You know when you enter into a conversation on racial issues, the worst thing you can try to do is change the subject to talk about yourself or your own pet issues or how its really about class. This thread isn't about racial issues, it's about how radicals can't communicate or cooperate. lol
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Dec 9, 2014 04:48
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Muscle Tracer posted:Exactly, which is why the idea of "leftism, except without gender or race discussions" is ridiculous and childish So doesn't that mean a leftism which is just gender and race kind of also bad?
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Dec 9, 2014 04:49
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Helsing posted:The problem is that you, as an individual, are an obnoxious dumbass who is seemingly posting literally anything you can think of to get people to pay attention to you.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:49
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Space Whale posted:So doesn't that mean a leftism which is just gender and race kind of also bad? If that were the norm, it would be bad, but it's not. If you encounter it, fight it—just as women and minorities have to fight to be heard, you're going to have to fight to be heard sometimes, too. But don't pretend that somebody yelling at you in your local meeting and you not being comfortable standing up to them is a national issue that needs to be addressed by creating white men-only leftist zones. If you're that scared of women and blacks and their mean old civil rights, join the libertarian party or something equally out of touch with reality.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:53
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Muscle Tracer posted:If that were the norm, it would be bad, but it's not. If you encounter it, fight it—just as women and minorities have to fight to be heard, you're going to have to fight to be heard sometimes, too. But don't pretend that somebody yelling at you in your local meeting and you not being comfortable standing up to them is a national issue that needs to be addressed by creating white men-only leftist zones. If you're that scared of women and blacks and their mean old civil rights, join the libertarian party or something equally out of touch with reality. "we need to care about everyone" "No, you just want people to care about people just like you according to how I perceive things." YO, the poo poo I went through had nothing to do with race/gender/sex politics at all. It completely falls on its face trying to explain it. lolclass!
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Dec 9, 2014 04:55
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