|
Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. I think it's partially an ingrained mentality that "these savages only understand one thing: force" which is pretty common in a lot of military institutions. For another, the only way to resolve the issue and soothe tensions is to end the root cause which is the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people(apartheid, the "hunger diet" in Gaza, the continued refusal to recognize the right of return, etc.) which for obvious political reasons is out of the picture. Thus, the only response available to them is brutality, which in turn creates an endless cycle of violence; when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Or maybe they genuinely believe that if they create enough human suffering, Palestinians will either lose their will or turn on Hamas; this was more or less the thinking behind the use of collective punishment in general. On the other hand, this constant cycle of brutality is pretty useful politically; it drives Israel to the right, solidifies the IDF's centrality as guardian of the nation(not that it really needed it), and creates an atmosphere of paranoia and hatred that is very advantageous to thugs like Netanyahu, Lieberman and Bennett. Those are just some thoughts; to be honest, evil of this enormity is pretty hard to fathom.
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 00:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 21:01 |
|
|
Eregos posted:A couple days ago, Israel announced a probe into 8 possible How many Neckbearded scrotelice who've never buttsexed a Jewish chick because, like, BDS, do you think shooshied in their Mountain Dew over this Magnificent Post? Zero, or zero? Bravo, son. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 00:40
|
|
|
Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. It's also extremely handy for distracting the Israeli public from domestic issues.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:How many Neckbearded scrotelice who've never buttsexed a Jewish chick because, like, BDS, do you think shooshied in their Mountain Dew over this Magnificent Post? Zero, or zero? Bravo, son. what in god's name is wrong with you
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 00:49
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't actually see a video in that article? Does he say it or not? There was one but they've removed it. Some other articles seem to have an abbreviated version up. According to descriptions it didn't catch him saying he would kill Jews but did catch him asking people "Want me to kill you?".
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 00:52
|
|
|
Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. Israel has made it fairly clear that it's collective punishment, mixed with a fair chunk of racism and at least a partial belief that anyone who doesn't work against Hamas is for Hamas. Just because it isn't particularly effective doesn't mean that isn't the reasoning behind it. Sure, it's just plain easier for a 21st-century military to operate with as little risk to themselves as possible when they don't care about civilian casualties, but that alone isn't enough to explain bombings of things like hospitals.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 01:12
|
|
|
Jagchosis posted:what in god's name is wrong with you Must be inspired by his authentic Hezbollah memorabilia.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 01:21
|
|
|
Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. Its pretty much the "Dahiya Doctrine" an urban counter-terrorism strategy devised by General Eizenkot. The idea is that if Hamas is embedded in a civilian population (which naturally it is, being their government) you target the civilian population with the aim of having the civlians force Hamas out into the open, or at least rebel enough against them that it interrupts their ability to organise. Thats the counter-terrorism wonk bonus to it anyway, its pretty classic collective punishment just rebranded; i.e. if you don't actively resist Hamas then you will be killed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 02:26
|
|
|
This isn't just an Israeli thing, by the way, targeting of civlians has been established military policy under the name "low intensity conflict" for decades. If Clancyheads get their wish and theres ever a non-nuclear WW3 it won't be an epic battle, it'll be both sides armies sailing past eachother in a rush to bombard their cities.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 02:29
|
|
|
nopantsjack posted:Its pretty much the "Dahiya Doctrine" an urban counter-terrorism strategy devised by General Eizenkot. I think you mean Brigadier General Eizenkot. As of mid-February, he will be the Chief of Staff of the IDF.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 02:54
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:How many Neckbearded scrotelice who've never buttsexed a Jewish chick because, like, BDS, do you think shooshied in their Mountain Dew over this Magnificent Post? Zero, or zero? Bravo, son. W-what is this
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:02
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:W-what is this It's what alcohol does to forum posts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:07
|
|
|
It's actually just the UAE's word filter censoring all his loving posts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:10
|
|
|
is having anal sex with a jewish woman a prerequisite to having an opinion on possible violations of international humanitarian law perpetrated by israel? if so, brb
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:13
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I think you mean Brigadier General Eizenkot. As of mid-February, he will be the Chief of Staff of the IDF. Well, mystery solved then. Good job, thread.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
Jagchosis posted:is having anal sex with a jewish woman a prerequisite to having an opinion on possible violations of international humanitarian law perpetrated by israel? if so, brb Only if she uses a strap-on and you aren't OK with that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:34
|
|
|
Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. Israel is an colonialist apartheid state. Like all such states, when the population they oppress revolts against them, they kill them as a warning regardless of the aftermath. It doesn't have to have strategic or tactical sense, just to gratify their own sick thirst for punishment. If Israel was operating on long term logic/strategy they would cease settlements at once and withdraw to 1967 lines to retain a Jewish state, right now they're digging their own grave because they operate on racism and greed. Hamas doesn't have the slightest capacity to harm Israel in any meaningful way and Israel would have lost less lives if they had just stood behind the border and not sent any soldiers in. Machiavelli was an actual smart person, if he understood the political realities in this situation, he'd be shaking his head. SedanChair posted:W-what is this An apparent mental breakdown by a known crazy person/actual terrorist supporter. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Dec 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 06:07
|
|
|
I've read it a few years ago, but that looked like A Clockwork Orange.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 10:24
|
|
|
This ain't good:quote:Ziad Abu Ein, the PA's settlements minister, dies after altercation with IDF soldiers in West Bank; Palestinian reports say he was struck by a soldier's gun in the chest and collapsed; Abbas calls event 'barbaric'.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 13:13
|
|
|
Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. There's multiple points here: 1. Not everyone follows Machiavelli. Attacks on civilians do not have to be a deliberate policy by 'Israel', whatever Israel is. They could instead be part of a policy of impunity where soldiers are indoctrinated to be indifferent to Palestinian suffering, defend themselves first and foremost, and tolerate racism and misanthropy in their midst. 2. The far right Israel government's enemy is not Hamas. It is the Palestinian people. The increase of support for Hamas legitimizes Israeli measures against the Gaza strip, it delegitimizes their moderate opponents both in and outside of Israel and efforts to dial down settlement activity and rein in the military. It creates a basis for a policy with the eventual conclusion that the entirity of Gaza must be annexed and 'cleansed', something that these days ministers don't even bother to hide. In support of this, destruction of civilian infrastructure ensures that the Gazans cannot build any semblance of a successful state, a state that could be conceivably recognisable and sympathised with - it is easy to be fine with pounding dusty ruins into more ruins, and it's seductive to claim you are bringing civilisation to terra nullius. 3. For the Israel public, the primary perspective of strikes on Gaza is in the emotional. The emotional doesn't give a poo poo about the long term prospects for peace. It doesn't give a toss about whether that explosion killed terrorists, or killed children, and cognitive dissonance creates an audience wanting to believe your inevitable spokesman who explains that actually only terrorists were killed, or that it was all the terrorists' fault anyway. The Israelis have already decided that any strike is intrinsically justified, anyone in the (Israeli determined) conflict zone is a legitimate target. To call that into question is to question the fundamental Israeli view of themselves. What is important is that the strikes continue and big explosions continue to be shown on TV. Israeli strikes have never really produced increased international sympathy for Gaza. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Dec 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 14:37
|
|
|
A Reuters reporter saw Abu Ein's death. Looks like it was a neck chop, not a rifle blow, that killed him. Holy poo poo, this ain't gonna end well. I don't even want to contemplate how Prime Minister Bennett might add to the situation.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 14:50
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:A Reuters reporter saw Abu Ein's death. Looks like it was a neck chop, not a rifle blow, that killed him. They literally killed the guy who is against their ongoing settlement and wall building. Its a red letter day in the Israeli government.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 16:22
|
|
|
No surprise here, but Livni and Herzog have come to an agreement, which should earn their coalition more seats than Likud. But this has absolutely no effect on the overall election, because Likud's nationalist coalition will still hold the majority of seats in a landslide, correct?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 17:37
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:No surprise here, but Livni and Herzog have come to an agreement, which should earn their coalition more seats than Likud. But this has absolutely no effect on the overall election, because Likud's nationalist coalition will still hold the majority of seats in a landslide, correct? The poll from a couple of weeks ago would put them at 17 seats, equal to Jewish Home's 17 and below Likud's 22.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 17:43
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:The poll from a couple of weeks ago would put them at 17 seats, equal to Jewish Home's 17 and below Likud's 22. Is that a more fractured or less fractured parliament than before?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:The poll from a couple of weeks ago would put them at 17 seats, equal to Jewish Home's 17 and below Likud's 22. The poll from last week put them at 24 seats to Likud's 22 and Jewish Home's 15. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.631032
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:The poll from last week put them at 24 seats to Likud's 22 and Jewish Home's 15. This is more accurate, yes. Also a press conference announcing Tzipi's and Herzog's combined initiative to take out Bibi starts in about an hour.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 17:51
|
|
|
Reminder that Tzipi "I demanded real Hooliganism during Cast Lead" Livni is a bloodthirsty warmonger and that anyone who has any hopes for any positive changes following the possible election of a center-left government is reading the map wrong. And this is all without taking into account the fact that tensions are running high and the region is incredibly volatile, which could play right into Bibi's hands in case poo poo does hit the fan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
Will any of the party leaders running for office comment on the death of that Palestinian Minister? I know if we expected a comment every time an Israeli killed a Palestinian the government wouldn't have time for anything else, but considering they actually vaguely recognize the PA killing one of their top officials at a peaceful protest would surely at least warrant a token "whoops sorry accidents happen he shouldn't have been there in the first place."
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 18:53
|
|
|
Dolash posted:Will any of the party leaders running for office comment on the death of that Palestinian Minister? I know if we expected a comment every time an Israeli killed a Palestinian the government wouldn't have time for anything else, but considering they actually vaguely recognize the PA killing one of their top officials at a peaceful protest would surely at least warrant a token "whoops sorry accidents happen he shouldn't have been there in the first place." IDF is calling the protestors 'rioters' so that's their angle. Probably they will use the tactic of announcing an IDF investigation into what happened, imploring everyone to wait for the full results of the investigation, which will enable them to shunt the issue to some later point where it can be pretty much forgotten. The investigation will describe how under extreme stress and in fear of his life, the Israeli soldier offered his assailant a gentle pat to show the love and generosity of spirit that is the Jewish way, and the Palestinian, in ill health, coincidentally later died of unrelated reasons. The government will be very sorry that so many felt offended at this tragic turn of events, and build a few more settlements to commemorate. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 19:11
|
|
|
Fangz posted:IDF is calling the protestors 'rioters' so that's their angle. Probably they will use the tactic of announcing an IDF investigation into what happened, imploring everyone to wait for the full results of the investigation, which will enable them to shunt the issue to some later point where it can be pretty much forgotten. The guy who killed the minister will get a medal, no other action will be taken.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 19:16
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Reminder that Tzipi "I demanded real Hooliganism during Cast Lead" Livni is a bloodthirsty warmonger and that anyone who has any hopes for any positive changes following the possible election of a center-left government is reading the map wrong. Darth Walrus posted:A Reuters reporter saw Abu Ein's death. Looks like it was a neck chop, not a rifle blow, that killed him. gently caress. 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Dec 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 19:41
|
|
|
Fangz posted:The investigation will describe how under extreme stress and in fear of his life, the Israeli soldier offered his assailant a gentle pat to show the love and generosity of spirit that is the Jewish way, and the Palestinian, in ill health, coincidentally later died of unrelated reasons. The government will be very sorry that so many felt offended at this tragic turn of events, and build a few more settlements to commemorate. Too credible, contains apology, politically active Palestinian made to seem like anything but a horrible terrorist. C+, revise and resubmit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Too credible, contains apology, politically active Palestinian made to seem like anything but a horrible terrorist. C+, revise and resubmit. "He was comin' right for us. It's just sad to me that the terrorists won't even let us protect their lives from the justifiable lethal threat posed by the settlers."
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 08:36
|
|
|
In the meanwhile the Israeli authorities are claiming Abu Ein died of cardiac arrest that "might have been induced by stress", the soldier who choked him and slammed his rifle into his chest has had nothing to do with it despite signs of internal bleeding in his throat and the fact that smacking an elderly man with a rifle to the chest has the potential to induce cardiac arrest. The PA is still accusing Israel of murder. We'll see how this thing develops. fade5 posted:Any chance you could do a super basic rundown on the various Israeli government parties and their beliefs? I know Bibi's basically the leader of Likud, which tells me more than enough about Likud, but I'm not familiar with most of the rest of the parties, and the "left-right" divide isn't really that clear cut in Israel for multiple reasons. Plus there's all the Jewish-specific stuff that I have no loving clue about even after some research. I'll try to do a write up during the weekend, but it's going to be personally biased like all hell.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 10:31
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:The PA is still accusing Israel of murder. We'll see how this thing develops. Well, since it is (excepting impartial coroner rulings) murder, I'm interested to see how it develops, also. I mean, it's not going to accomplish anything, really. Israel gets away with poo poo like this all the time. See murdered Hamas commander where there's video of the hit team all the way from the front door to his hotel door in UAE or Dubai, can't remember. There were lots of sanctions and international outcry over that, yeah?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 10:42
|
|
|
repeating posted:Well, since it is (excepting impartial coroner rulings) murder, I'm interested to see how it develops, also. I mean, it's not going to accomplish anything, really. Israel gets away with poo poo like this all the time. See murdered Hamas commander where there's video of the hit team all the way from the front door to his hotel door in UAE or Dubai, can't remember. There were lots of sanctions and international outcry over that, yeah? Are you talking about the Khaled Mashal assassination attempt? That was in Jordan and there was some outcry by the Jordanians, including king Hussein claiming it was a violation of the peace treaty between the countries. Regardless, there is a major difference as far as the majority of the world is concerned between a PA minister and a Hamas official, as far as most western governments are concerned Hamas is still a terrorist organization, in 1997 it was considered a particularly heinous one to boot, Israel was considered to have overreached its jurisprudence but killing 'terrorists' is not something most westerners consider to be a bad thing. For that purpose, Abu Ein is also now being labeled as a terrorist as he was apparently convicted by the Israeli authorities of two accounts of homicide back in 1979, accusations which he denied by the way (which is uncommon in cases where the perpetrator is indeed guilty, Terrorist organizations usually instruct their operatives to claim responsibility for terror attacks). In anyway, the real danger here as far as Israel is concerned is less about international outcry and sanctions and more about the PA deciding it had enough and calling for some mass protests, which would for all intents and purposes be the (indisputable) beginning of an intifada. I suspect that the PA is showing particular restraint due to the coming Israeli elections, Abbas certainly knows how the Israeli public would react to mass protests and there's a possibility he'd like to try to minimize tensions until mid march and hope for a Herzog-Livni led government, he always struck me as an optimistic fella.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 11:08
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:optimistic fella. TLDR jordan cried nobody died. Name a sanction against Israel that came as a result. Of course a man killed by the IDF was a terrorist. They only kill terrorists. Absolutely agree that this action will have dire consequences. Israel, even this late in the game, has no idea what the gently caress it's doing. Even if Israel wanted "peace" they can't have it anymore. They're the ultimate definition of "accelerationist." I mean, yeah, they kill Pallys, and for the majority of the population, that works. They just haven't figured out the proper balance yet. You kill us x1, we kill you x100. This is really not the best foreign policy. Look how it worked for the US before 09/11/2001. Pretty well, right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 11:31
|
|
|
repeating posted:Well, since it is (excepting impartial coroner rulings) murder, I'm interested to see how it develops, also. I mean, it's not going to accomplish anything, really. Israel gets away with poo poo like this all the time. See murdered Hamas commander where there's video of the hit team all the way from the front door to his hotel door in UAE or Dubai, can't remember. There were lots of sanctions and international outcry over that, yeah? gently caress usa!
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 11:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 21:01 |
|
|
repeating posted:TLDR jordan cried nobody died. Name a sanction against Israel that came as a result. Well, the attempt on Khaled Meshal forced Israel not only to provide Jordan with the antidote to the poison used on him to save his life, but also to release Hamas spiritual leader Ahmad Yassin, arguably strengthening it tremendously; the exact opposite of what they were looking for. But I think what you meant was the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, which burned 26 Israeli agents, got Israeli diplomats expelled from Britain, Australia, and Ireland, and doesn't seem to have done much to Hamas. quote:Of course a man killed by the IDF was a terrorist. They only kill terrorists. Peace is still possible. It's just going to take longer, and the civil wars which will ensue are going to get less and less pleasant. Best-case scenario at this point is 1967 borders and an OAS-type insurgency inside of them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 11:54
|
|