I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Kajeesus posted:

Prior to the beating footage being released, Tarek made a blog post about the police refusing to cooperate with the investigation unless they got a written "admission" that there had been a family feud over Muhammad being gay. It was nowhere to be found after, I think.

E: Although I thought there was footage of him being beaten after he'd already been taken to the station. Maybe I am confusing some things here.

Don't think there's a dearth of footage of Palestinians being beaten in custody by Israeli police/military, to be honest. :smith:

Crowsbeak posted:

So Bennet decided to try to befriend Saban and other "friends of israel. Turns out they are a little taken a back at his ideas.

Seriously he is making putin style threats here. Also he is making one of the major players in the pro Israel lobby really nervous.

It seems like he thinks that, if Europe stops importing things from Israel, all of the stuff that was designed in Israel would have to be.. returned, I guess? He's had way too much of the Hasbara IsReallyKoolAid to make sense to an outsider.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 01:13

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# ? May 31, 2024 20:30

Genpei Turtle: Jul 20, 2007

DrProsek posted:

Duder tries to sell state secrets to an Israeli Air Force colonel for , he claims because he was concerned that Navy Intelligence was withholding vital information from it's ally, and so he sold information to Israel...

... and (apartheid-era) South Africa. And (many attempts to sell to) Pakistan. And (possibly) China. And the information he stole often had nothing to do with the security or stability of Israel including things like classified politician and economic analyses. At best he sold some intelligence reports, however well intentioned, to foreign governments, not leaking state secrets to the American public. At worst, he was trying to make money on the side as a spy for whatever nation was paying the bills. The dude is nothing really like Snowden, he's just a classic "dude who got security clearance but wanted a bigger paycheck".

Also it's worth noting that the secrets he sold were apparently really, really serious. His guilty plea was part of a deal with the prosecution--he would cooperate with the feds as they did a damage assessment of the information he leaked, and wouldn't talk about his case and they wouldn't ask for a life sentence. And then he broke the second part of plea deal by talking to reporters. Repeatedly. The prosecution went with the agreement anyway and didn't ask for a life sentence, but after taking one look at the damage assessment the sentencing judge went "gently caress no, into the hole you go permanently." So whatever it was that he sold, it was probably pretty bad.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 01:24

fade5: May 31, 2012; by exmarx

Genpei Turtle posted:

Also it's worth noting that the secrets he sold were apparently really, really serious. His guilty plea was part of a deal with the prosecution--he would cooperate with the feds as they did a damage assessment of the information he leaked, and wouldn't talk about his case and they wouldn't ask for a life sentence. And then he broke the second part of plea deal by talking to reporters. Repeatedly. The prosecution went with the agreement anyway and didn't ask for a life sentence, but after taking one look at the damage assessment the sentencing judge went "gently caress no, into the hole you go permanently." So whatever it was that he sold, it was probably pretty bad.

Yep, and despite all this, Israel has routinely requested the release of Pollard from various US presidents and other officials. Here's the gigantic loving list of requests for Pollard's release from Pollard's Wikipedia article:

Wikipedia posted:

Yitzhak Rabin was the first Israeli prime minister to ask for the release of Pollard, requesting U.S. President Bill Clinton to pardon him in 1995. Among the many requests for Pollard's release was one at the 1998 Wye River conference, where Netanyahu recalls, "if we signed an agreement with Arafat, I expected a pardon for Pollard." Of his meeting with Netanyahu during the Wye River talks, Bill Clinton writes, "Netanyahu was threatening to scuttle the whole deal unless I released Pollard. He said I had promised him I would do so at an earlier meeting the night before, and that's why he had agreed on the other issues. In fact, I had told the prime minister that if that's what it took to make peace, I was inclined to do it, but I would have to check with our people." Clinton states that Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, and George Tenet were all "adamantly opposed" to letting Pollard out of prison.

Another Israeli request for Pollard's release was made in New York on September 14, 2005, and was declined by President George W. Bush. A request on Pollard's behalf that he be designated a Prisoner of Zion was rejected by the High Court of Justice of Israel on January 16, 2006. Another appeal for intervention on Pollard's behalf was rejected by the High Court on March 20, 2006.

On January 10, 2008, the subject of Pollard's pardon was again brought up for discussion, this time by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, during President George W. Bush's first visit to Israel as President. Subsequently, this request was turned down by President Bush. The next day, at a dinner attended by several ministers in the Israeli government (in addition to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice), the subject of Pollard's release was again discussed. This time however, Prime Minister Olmert commented that it was not the appropriate occasion to discuss the fate of the convicted Israeli spy.

As President Bush was about to leave office in 2009, Pollard himself requested clemency for the first time. In an interview in Newsweek former CIA director James Woolsey endorsed Pollard's release on two conditions: that he show contrition and decline any profits from books or other projects linked to the case. Bush did not pardon him.

The New York Times reported on September 21, 2010, that the Israeli government (again under Netanyahu) informally proposed that Pollard be released as a reward to Israel for extending by three months a halt to new settlements in occupied territories.

On December 21, 2010, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he would formally and publicly call for Pollard's release. This was the first formal request made by Israel. On January 4, 2011, Netanyahu formally submitted a letter to President Obama requesting clemency. The White House issued a statement saying the letter would be reviewed, however no official response has been given to date.

In 2012, President Shimon Peres presented a letter signed by 80 Israel legislators and addressed to President Obama requesting Pollard's release on behalf of the citizens of Israel. In November 2013, Jewish Agency chairman Natan Sharansky said, "It is unprecedented in the history of the U.S. that someone who spied for a friendly country served even half the time [that Pollard has] in prison."

In late March, 2014, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry reportedly offered to release Pollard as an incentive to Israel to resume negotiations with the Palestinians toward the formation of a Palestinian state. The White House, however, announced that no decision had been made on any agreement involving Pollard.

In October, 2014, Elyakim Rubinstein, an Israeli Supreme Court Justice, former attorney general, and the acting Israeli ambassador to the US at the time of Pollard's arrest, called for Pollard's pardon. He said "Mistakes were made, mainly by the Israelis, but by the Americans as well, and 29 years [is] enough."

In November 2014, American officials sent a letter to President Obama slamming the "unjust denial of parole" for Pollard whose "grossly disproportionate sentence continues," calling the charge the government uses to keep him imprisoned "patently false." The signatories of the letter included former CIA director James Woolsey, former Assistant U.S. Defense Secretary Lawrence Korb and former U.S. National Security Advisor Robert McFarlane.

Of particular note is the offer back in late March/early April: the US was willing to offer Pollard up as part of a prisoner exchange/peace plan/way to get Israel to come to the table, but Israel refused, which shows that as much as they complain about Pollard's imprisonment, Pollard's really just a bargaining chip for Israel to hit the US with (because how dare we imprison him in the first place). Pollard's also technically eligible for parole in November 2015, but it's rather unlikely parole will be granted, and it's even questionable how much longer Pollard will live; dude's not in the greatest health.

Israel's refusal to negotiate also resulted in the greatest Yaakov Kirschen cartoon ever:

This, of course is exactly the opposite of what happened in reality. :allears:

fade5 fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Dec 9, 2014

# ? Dec 9, 2014 01:38

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Pollard has more in common with Robert Hanssen than Snowden.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 01:45

Brainbread: Apr 7, 2008

Absurd Alhazred posted:

It seems like he thinks that, if Europe stops importing things from Israel, all of the stuff that was designed in Israel would have to be.. returned, I guess? He's had way too much of the Hasbara IsReallyKoolAid to make sense to an outsider.

For some reason I read his threat of "heart attacks" being related to Israel being home to a *major* Pharmaceutical Manufacturer (As in, 1 out of 6 prescriptions in USA is made by them). There was a small article about, on an issue with anti-depressants that were chemically identical, but they didn't manufacture them properly resulting in, well, not being biologically identical.

The conspiracy theorist part of me latched onto that. But more likely, if Europe attempts to boycott Israeli products they'll just have a huge issue with medication shortages.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 01:53

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Brainbread posted:

For some reason I read his threat of "heart attacks" being related to Israel being home to a *major* Pharmaceutical Manufacturer (As in, 1 out of 6 prescriptions in USA is made by them). There was a small article about, on an issue with anti-depressants that were chemically identical, but they didn't manufacture them properly resulting in, well, not being biologically identical.

The conspiracy theorist part of me latched onto that. But more likely, if Europe attempts to boycott Israeli products they'll just have a huge issue with medication shortages.

Yeah, but Teva is mostly about generics, so somebody else will pick up the slack. Are there actual patented medications that are only manufactured in Israel?

# ? Dec 9, 2014 01:57

Brainbread: Apr 7, 2008

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Yeah, but Teva is mostly about generics, so somebody else will pick up the slack. Are there actual patented medications that are only manufactured in Israel?

I do not know. There was an issue in Europe already with generics being delayed because of bribery.

I think the bigger issue is that, like it says, they are the Number 1 manufacturer of generics in the world. I would think that if they were covered in the boycott, it would take quite a long time before other companies could pick up the slack.

And that sounds incredibly dangerous.

E: They own the patents on the most widely used Multiple Sclerosis medication, as well as drug used to combat Parkinsons.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 03:43

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Brainbread posted:

I do not know. There was an issue in Europe already with generics being delayed because of bribery.

If I'm reading this correctly, they were artificially reducing supply to keep up prices. If Teva is out of the picture, supply is naturally lower, so other than Teva, they may all be for it. The damage might not be greater than how things were before this was found out.

quote:

I think the bigger issue is that, like it says, they are the Number 1 manufacturer of generics in the world. I would think that if they were covered in the boycott, it would take quite a long time before other companies could pick up the slack.

And that sounds incredibly dangerous.

E: They own the patents on the most widely used Multiple Sclerosis medication, as well as drug used to combat Parkinsons.

There could always be a drugs for food program.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 04:02

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Volkerball posted:

Also that he thinks there is no solution for Gaza, so rather than chase after a 10 and wind up with a 0, he wants to settle for an achievable "7." That 7 is letting food (literally the only thing he offered. Fruits, vegetables, etc) into Gaza, but nothing that will help Gaza security-wise.

It shows how mercilessly he wants to treat the Palestinians, that he thinks letting them eat food is a 7/10.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 07:26

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Brainbread posted:

The conspiracy theorist part of me latched onto that. But more likely, if Europe attempts to boycott Israeli products they'll just have a huge issue with medication shortages.

Yeah, if only Europe wasn't home to over 150 pharmaceutics industries, including giants like Bayer and Sanofi...

Heck: Top 10 pharma companies 2013

1 Johnson & Johnson: USA
2 Novartis: Switzerland
3 Roche: Switzerland
4 Pfizer: USA
5 Sanofi: France
6 GlaxoSmithKline: UK
7 Merck: USA
8 Bayer HealthCare: Germany
9 AstraZeneca: UK+Sweden
10 Eli Lilly: USA

Top 10 is shared 4 are American, 4 are Union European, and 2 are Swiss. 0 are Israeli.

Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Dec 9, 2014

# ? Dec 9, 2014 07:27

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

I don't like being in the position of defending things said by far-right Israeli politicians, but just to clarify, I seriously don't think he's claiming if Europe boycotted Israel he'd throw a switch to turn off all the Israeli-made electronics and pacemakers. He mentions irrigation systems and traffic apps as well, because his general point is claiming Israel's an indispensable economic player particularly in inventing innovative technology, so countries which boycott Israel will miss out on these products.

It's just bluster along the lines of "Boycott us? Psh, fine, say goodbye to all our sweet inventions, I'm sure we'll find someone else who wants this stuff. Good luck trying to get by without us." Not a Putin-esque supervillain threat.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 11:38

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

I didn't think he was making a Bond-villain like threat, I still think he was coming off as a complete Hasbara tool cause I've heard and seen dozens Apartheid-deniers who say idiotic things like "Boycott settlement produce? still using that Sandy bridge computer are you? HYPOCRITE!".

The question is whether Bennett is really this stupid and crass or whether he's simply playing to his audience at home by rehashing these tired slogans and demonstrating that he's got the Chutzpah to tell off these ~~jews who've always had Israel's back~~ anti-semites.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 14:12

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officer-shoots-man-allegedly-stabbed-student/story?id=27466488

quote:

A New York police officer fatally shot a man who allegedly stabbed an Israeli student inside a synagogue in Brooklyn early today.

The incident happened about 1:45 a.m. inside the headquarters of Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish sect.

The 49-year-old man walked into the synagogue asking for a book, police said. He then stabbed the 23-year-old student in the side of the head with a knife, they added.

Witnesses said the man was repeating, "Kill all Jews," as he stabbed Levi Rosenblat, according to an emailed statement from Rabbi Motti Seligson of Chabad-Lubavitch.

When officers arrived, they ordered the man drop the knife, police said. He placed it on a table, but then picked it up and walked toward some of the officers, police added.

Cell phone video captured the incident, showing officers yelling at the man and capturing the sound of the single gunshot.

The man was taken to Kings County Hospital, where he died. The student police said the man stabbed was also taken to the hospital and was listed in stable condition.

"While we are very pained by everything that has unfolded, we are very grateful to the police for their quick response and are working closely with the authorities in their ongoing investigation," Seligson said in his emailed statement. "We commend the heroic efforts of the individuals who were present and took immediate action, if not for their intervention the outcome could have been, G-d forbid far worse. We continue to pray for the young man who is in stable condition."

Mmm, not sure this is good PR for anyone involved. 10$ that man never actually said "Kill all Jews", any takers?

# ? Dec 9, 2014 14:37

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

What will Europe possibly do without an economic giant like Israel?! Just look at its integral position in our trade:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_European_Union

emanresu tnuocca posted:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officer-shoots-man-allegedly-stabbed-student/story?id=27466488

Mmm, not sure this is good PR for anyone involved. 10$ that man never actually said "Kill all Jews", any takers?

Well, I mean he did go into a synagogue to stab people, not exactly far-fetched

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Dec 9, 2014

# ? Dec 9, 2014 14:43

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Mmm, not sure this is good PR for anyone involved. 10$ that man never actually said "Kill all Jews", any takers?

Unfortunately, just because Israel labels everything as antisemitism doesn't mean actual antisemitism no longer exists. It happened in New York, not in Jerusalem, so it's hard to argue a political angle to that assault.

And crazed would-be murderers don't really care about making good PR. Or rather, as far as they're concerned, good PR is getting lots of media attention. Like explained here.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 15:08

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

It just seems convenient. 10$ ain't much.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 15:12

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Cat Mattress posted:

Unfortunately, just because Israel labels everything as antisemitism doesn't mean actual antisemitism no longer exists. It happened in New York, not in Jerusalem, so it's hard to argue a political angle to that assault.

And crazed would-be murderers don't really care about making good PR. Or rather, as far as they're concerned, good PR is getting lots of media attention. Like explained here.

Oh, anti-sematism exists, just like any other bigotry, but its not as drop of the hat as Israel claims it is.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 15:44

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

10$ that man never actually said "Kill all Jews", any takers?

I'll take this bet. Which you're gonna regret. Because... it's a really stupid bet.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Dec 9, 2014

# ? Dec 9, 2014 15:50

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

emanresu tnuocca posted:

It just seems convenient. 10$ ain't much.

Sure. Forum upgrade of your choice (up to $10) vs. forum upgrade of my choice (up to $10)?

e: gently caress, stabbed like a Jew by an antisemite.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 15:55

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

quote:

Asked about such reports, Patrick Conry -- who oversees police detectives in Brooklyn -- did not say whether or not the attacker called out anyone specifically because of their religion.
"He may have said words to the effect of, 'I will kill all of you,'" Conry said. "We're still interviewing witnesses."

Man, I got a feeling I'm gonna be swimming in whatever features platinum offers these days pretty soon.

cause this:

quote:

Rabbi Motti Seligson, a spokesman for the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, said that, "According to witnesses, (the attacker) was overheard saying repeatedly, 'Kill the Jews' or something to that effect."

Is not very convincing.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 17:05

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

I feel pretty safe in assuming the dude that busted into a lubavitcher headquarters to stab people was doing it because he wanted to stab Jewish people.

edit: Unless he was specifically targeting the Chabad.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 18:25

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

What reason could the aggressor hypothetically have had to attack the Chabad in particular instead of Jews in general?

# ? Dec 9, 2014 18:34

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

When you think about it why are we to assume the assailant didn't know the victim in the first place?

And for what it's worth, I am not saying this was or wasn't an anti-semitic incident, though it seems like by this point in time most news sources are not labeling it as such, what I did say was that I don't think that the phrase "kill all jews" was truly uttered, and that's only cause my bullshit detector went off by the statements made by the Rabbi that was interviewed in the original piece.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 18:39

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Cat Mattress posted:

What reason could the aggressor hypothetically have had to attack the Chabad in particular instead of Jews in general?

Sexual assault while a minor?

Since he stabbed a student, pretty sure it was a "death to Jews" attack.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 18:43

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Cat Mattress posted:

What reason could the aggressor hypothetically have had to attack the Chabad in particular instead of Jews in general?

An synagogue happens to be a really good place to find a Jew, maybe, particularly an Orthodox synagogue?

That said, something does seem a little off - what the hell was the place doing open at 1:45am, and what were a student and a homeless guy doing there together at that time of night? It's entirely possible that this wasn't just some random attack.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:05

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

A report with a video. Don't have sound at work so I can't listen myself to try and resolve this important dispute.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:10

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

My Imaginary GF posted:

Since he stabbed a student, pretty sure it was a "death to Jews" attack.

That's my assumption as well, if you look at the context of the post...

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:10

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Man, I got a feeling I'm gonna be swimming in whatever features platinum offers these days pretty soon.

cause this:

Is not very convincing.

If you don't have archives, that's a pretty pro upgrade, too.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Cat Mattress posted:

That's my assumption as well, if you look at the context of the post...

There are some valid reasons to have an urge to stab at Chabad, mainly relating to child abuse and institutional coverup of sexual assault. Mostly, I knew someone who took that stabbing unto themselves after attempting to mitigate their experience of Chabad. I think that can be ruled out in this case.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:34

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Cat Mattress posted:

What reason could the aggressor hypothetically have had to attack the Chabad in particular instead of Jews in general?

There's the sex abuse scandals, but Chabad are also super open with their belief that non-Jewish people don't have souls in public forums, and lots of other Jewish groups have problems with their claims about Schneerson being the Messiah.

I don't think it's specifically targeting Chabad, but wanted to cover my bases.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:44

Eregos: Aug 17, 2006; A Reversal of Fortune, Perhaps?

A couple days ago, Israel announced a probe into 8 possible ~~war crimes~~ Increased levels of Awesomeness carried out by its military in the 2014 Gaza war.
It appears mainly intended to ward off the U.N. Human Rights Council commission of inquiry into the same ~~crimes~~ Upgraded levels of Activity.

Brief New York Times article

# ? Dec 9, 2014 19:53

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Eregos posted:

A couple days ago, Israel announced a probe into 8 possible ~~war crimes~~ Increased levels of Awesomeness carried out by its military in the 2014 Gaza war.
It appears mainly intended to ward off the U.N. Human Rights Council commission of inquiry into the same ~~crimes~~ Upgraded levels of Activity.

Brief New York Times article

And then nothing will happen. Same as always.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 22:08

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Miftan posted:

And then nothing will happen. Same as always.

They probably waited until they could be sure that every single one of those involved were no longer serving in the military. Keep your eyes out for future investigations that will also lead to no charges due to lack of jurisdiction.

# ? Dec 9, 2014 23:18

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

team overhead smash posted:

A report with a video. Don't have sound at work so I can't listen myself to try and resolve this important dispute.

Well?

# ? Dec 9, 2014 23:50

Eregos: Aug 17, 2006; A Reversal of Fortune, Perhaps?

Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:10

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Xander77 posted:

Well?

I don't actually see a video in that article? Does he say it or not?

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:11

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

Eregos posted:

Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:14

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

Eregos posted:

Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me.

Well, Israel's use of imprecise munitions (artillery, dumb bombs, white phosphorus, etc.) in a densely populated urban environment suggests that Israel at least doesn't care about civilian casualties. Whether that constitutes deliberate targeting of civilians or not is debatable, depending on how much benefit of the doubt you're willing to grant the IDF.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:20

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Eregos posted:

Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me.

The Gaza conflict has to be understood as a massive, protracted siege, rather than any sort of conventional military conflict. Because of this, attacks on civilian infrastructure and morale have just as much importance as attacks on military targets. This also explains why the blockade on the strip prevents seeds and construction material from getting through, on top of the expected things such as weapons.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:25

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# ? May 31, 2024 20:30

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Eregos posted:

Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me.

The idea is basically to be rid of the people by forcing them out and then taking the land for yourself. There's a limit to how blatantly you can do that, so it's always done a little bit at a time and with some obfuscating crisis.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:29

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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