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Orange Devil posted:I'd be willing to compromise for "tried under Nuremberg principles, found guilty, sentenced to death, have sentence changed to life in prison on humanitarian grounds, let out of prison once medical professionals determine he's about to die anyway". We have room for this fucker in the prison in Scheveningen where we put the other war criminals and I'd be so loving happy paying my taxes every year knowing it's funding this fucks imprisonment you'd have no idea. Compelling, but I want to see his smooth, fat head drop into a basket. Your thoughts?
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Dec 10, 2014 15:01
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SedanChair posted:There won't be any more Watergates. 
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Dec 10, 2014 15:04
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rscott posted:"Telling the truth is a form of accountability" Jesus loving Christ This monologue kept popping up in my head with this "truth absolves us" garbage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYiqZemVpsQ
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Dec 10, 2014 15:04
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SedanChair posted:Compelling, but I want to see his smooth, fat head drop into a basket. Your thoughts? The national psychodrama of the past few months has been America's abandonment of the rule of law. It's important that legal accountability be restored. Nuremberg is the only legitimate response. Since we won't, I hope he travels outside of the country and some other nation does what has to be done.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:04
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District Selectman posted:The more I read, the more I wonder if this is the next Watergate. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I'm not sure if the public has enough... (focus? outrage?) in them to push the media and the politicians to Watergate-level levels of coverage/shame/importance anymore. I'm not even speaking specifically about this scandal. Just that wondering if some story will be 'the next Watergate' strikes me as wondering which new band is going to be the next Beatles or Michael Jackson, or which late night host will gain the same cachet of Johnny Carson, without considering that we have more than 4 broadcast channels now, so no matter how big you get, most people are in their own bubbles and you're missing that critical mass of "the world is watching" attention. It just seems too easy for stuff like this to blow over since the media will need a new story lest they start losing viewership/mouse clicks. I'll concede that I'm not old enough to have lived through Watergate, so maybe I have a misguided sense of how much your average person on the street knew about it or was outraged about it. It seems like it would have been more difficult to ignore stuff like this in days where you couldn't immerse yourself in Netflixing 6 seasons of Mad Men -- even if you turned to TV it would have been in your face, whereas you can totally ignore news entirely these days. edit: SedanChair posted:There won't be any more Watergates. More succinctly, this. I'm not sure if SedanChair agrees with my reasoning on why, however. Pakistani Brad Pitt fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 15:05
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Watergate happened because people still believed the government was ultimately good and righteous and just. Noone believes that anymore (partially thanks to Watergate, ironically enough) so no, there will not be another Watergate.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:07
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Actually I'm pretty sure Watergate was a big deal because the victims were powerful US politicians. That's the only reason it was unacceptable. There is basically no crime the government can't get away with, so long as the victims aren't powerful. Case in point; millions of average people are under unwarranted surveillance, and nobody in power gives a poo poo. But the when it came to light that the NSA was also tapping the German PM, people lost their poo poo and Obama was forced to back off.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:38
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I like the torture report because it's caused all the trolls on reddit to shut the gently caress up about how voting and writing to your congressman changes things, and that it's today's low political participation rate that's driving all the awful stuff that's getting rammed down our throats. Perhaps they, too, have embraced the sweet kiss of accelerationism.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:44
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SedanChair posted:John Yoo should be executed. where is the deterrent or rehabilitative benefit in that?
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Dec 10, 2014 15:44
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NYT still refusing to use the word "torture" seemingly. Even the USA Today has the word "torture" in the headline.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:45
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ActusRhesus posted:where is the deterrent or rehabilitative benefit in that? don't facilitate torture or you might get executed. sounds like a good deterrent to me!
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Dec 10, 2014 15:45
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Nah, that would lead to a chilling effect on pro-torture legal arguments.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:46
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Condiv posted:don't facilitate torture or you might get executed. sounds like a good deterrent to me! but Sedan Chair, elsewhere, is arguing that violent criminals should be left to "abide in rehabilitative treatment centers" and anyone who supports the idea of retributive punishment is a "bloodthirsty savage." Seems a bit of a departure here, what with all the "off with his head."
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Dec 10, 2014 15:48
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euphronius posted:NYT still refusing to use the word "torture" seemingly. Even the USA Today has the word "torture" in the headline. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/us/politics/overseas-torture-report-prompts-calls-for-prosecution.html http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/09/world/cia-torture-report-key-points.html
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Dec 10, 2014 15:51
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Ah I didnt see that on the front page at Dunkin Donuts this morning.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:52
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if john yoo were executed he'd give a smug smirk and sarcastic quip before the blade dropped anyway
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Dec 10, 2014 15:52
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Execution is an enhanced rehabilitative technique.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:53
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euphronius posted:Nah, that would lead to a chilling effect on pro-torture legal arguments. You know, every day I wake up and think "You know, we need more pro-torture legal arguments. Torture, like rape, gets the short end of the stick".
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Dec 10, 2014 15:53
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rkajdi posted:You know, every day I wake up and think "You know, we need more pro-torture legal arguments. Torture, like rape, gets the short end of the stick". Publish or perish. It's tough on law school campuses these days.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:56
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Orange Devil posted:I'd be willing to compromise for "tried under Nuremberg principles, found guilty, sentenced to death, have sentence changed to life in prison on humanitarian grounds, let out of prison once medical professionals determine he's about to die anyway". We have room for this fucker in the prison in Scheveningen where we put the other war criminals and I'd be so loving happy paying my taxes every year knowing it's funding this fucks imprisonment you'd have no idea. I like the idea of not executing great men for their crimes. However, history tells us we are piss poor at actually keeping these people imprisoned forever. Since we're talking about "ridiculous human rights violations against Muslims" I offer up Vlad the Impaler. He was let back into power twice, all because coward poo poo Europeans were willing to allow the commission of genocide if it saved their worthless hides. I'd love if we could come up with a punishment against great men that actually worked and would stick. I have a hard time coming up with one that doesn't require constant vigilance and state co-operation.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:03
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SedanChair posted:Compelling, but I want to see his smooth, fat head drop into a basket. Your thoughts? I'm principally against the death penalty but my level of caring for war criminals is pretty low so uh, whatever I guess? euphronius posted:NYT still refusing to use the word "torture" seemingly. Even the USA Today has the word "torture" in the headline. All the news fit to print. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 16:03
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ActusRhesus posted:but Sedan Chair, elsewhere, is arguing that violent criminals should be left to "abide in rehabilitative treatment centers" and anyone who supports the idea of retributive punishment is a "bloodthirsty savage." he's right, retributive punishment is the realm of bloodthirsty savages. if sedan chair was wanting true retributive punishment, he would say that john yoo should be chained in a dank cell filled with an unholy din and a dearth of light, waterboarded and rectally fed for 10 years, and then killed while being beaten to death. the punishment he prescribed was much more lenient than john yoo deserves, and shows much more leniency than john yoo and the people he enabled showed the innocent
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Dec 10, 2014 16:06
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Condiv posted:he's right, retributive punishment is the realm of bloodthirsty savages. if sedan chair was wanting true retributive punishment, he would say that john yoo should be chained in a dank cell filled with an unholy din and a dearth of light, waterboarded and rectally fed for 10 years, and then killed while being beaten to death. the punishment was much more lenient than yoo deserves... you realize that is a textbook retributivist philosophy statement. I'm beginning to think none of you actually know what retributive sentencing philosophy actually means.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:09
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We don't care if powerful wealthy international war criminals who tortured and executed innocent people and try to justify it by lying to us get rehabilitated hth
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Dec 10, 2014 16:16
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ActusRhesus posted:the punishment was much more lenient than yoo deserves... It is more lenient that Yoo deserves. I think the point is we all get better than we deserve. I'm totally fine with a punishment for Yoo (and the rest of the torture crew all the way to the top) that would remove their ability to have any control over society and actually stick. Executions always stick, the best you can do is get revenge afterwards. Again, show me another punishment that will actually work and stick and I'm all for it.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:21
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CheesyDog posted:We don't care if powerful wealthy international war criminals who tortured and executed innocent people and try to justify it by lying to us get rehabilitated hth Fair point. Please relay that the Sedan Chair who seems to think retribution is never valid philosophy. Except for the times when he does.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:36
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Rhesus, since you're going to get your negative attention either way, I'll just go ahead and say this. You are an evil, malignant mockery of everything that humanity is supposed to be. Your continued existence actively makes the world a worse place, and people like you are a large part of why this report ever came to exist. You might think the rest of us are weak for caring about other human beings, but that reflects on something wrong with you, not us. You are what's wrong with America. You are what's wrong with humanity. And no matter what you say or do, after you pass away you will have nothing. You will cease to exist, and the only evidence you ever lived will be a world that is worse off.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:40
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An Angry Bug posted:Rhesus, since you're going to get your negative attention either way, I'll just go ahead and say this. You are an evil, malignant mockery of everything that humanity is supposed to be. Your continued existence actively makes the world a worse place, and people like you are a large part of why this report ever came to exist. You might think the rest of us are weak for caring about other human beings, but that reflects on something wrong with you, not us. You are what's wrong with America. You are what's wrong with humanity. And no matter what you say or do, after you pass away you will have nothing. You will cease to exist, and the only evidence you ever lived will be a world that is worse off. so supporting prison sentences for murder = supporting anal hummus smoothies. Got it.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:44
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frankly not prosecuting individuals involved in this makes sense, if obama indicted a single one the CIA would probably disappear his dog
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Dec 10, 2014 16:52
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Jagchosis posted:frankly not prosecuting individuals involved in this makes sense, if obama indicted a single one the CIA would probably disappear his dog you give the CIA too much credit. seriously, they would gently caress that up.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:55
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Unhinged Vulcan posted:you give the CIA too much credit. seriously, they would gently caress that up. Yes, they would rape the dog and claim it had it coming.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:58
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An Angry Bug posted:Rhesus, since you're going to get your negative attention either way, I'll just go ahead and say this. You are an evil, malignant mockery of everything that humanity is supposed to be. Your continued existence actively makes the world a worse place, and people like you are a large part of why this report ever came to exist. You might think the rest of us are weak for caring about other human beings, but that reflects on something wrong with you, not us. You are what's wrong with America. You are what's wrong with humanity. And no matter what you say or do, after you pass away you will have nothing. You will cease to exist, and the only evidence you ever lived will be a world that is worse off. Rhesus has a good point though, and I also really dont think its okay to have the likes of Yoo summarily tortured or killed. They should be turned over to a (foreign) court to face prison time imo; no one here is arguing such that the perpetrators shouldn't be punished.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:58
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An unknown number of dogs, Portugese and otherwise, would have gotten raped, tortured and killed by the CIA or third parties in service of the CIA. Evidence that very serious people would claim was compelling would be presented to the UN showing Portugal to be a rogue terrorist state that must be invaded. Bombing would commence shortly, within a few years, Brazil would be invaded for good measure.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:01
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Orange Devil posted:An unknown number of dogs, Portugese and otherwise, would have gotten raped, tortured and killed by the CIA or third parties in service of the CIA. Evidence that very serious people would claim was compelling would be presented to the UN showing Portugal to be a rogue terrorist state that must be invaded. Bombing would commence shortly, within a few years, Brazil would be invaded for good measure. again? Should I purchase stock in Ford?
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Dec 10, 2014 17:03
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ActusRhesus posted:so supporting prison sentences for murder = supporting anal hummus smoothies. You're a disingenuous prick, hth.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:32
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Apologies if this has been mentioned here, but I didn't see it:ComradeCosmobot posted:Just in case you were worried that Obama hasn't been doing anything to bring those involved to justice, Obama HAS jailed someone connected to the CIA's torture program. (You'll never guess who! Anyone know if he named someone in relation to the torture program? It's implied but not stated. e: nevermind, a linked story says 'yes'.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:34
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eviltastic posted:Apologies if this has been mentioned here, but I didn't see it: *sad trombone*
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Dec 10, 2014 17:46
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I don't think that folks should be executed for this, they should be imprisoned. For the rest of their lives. In a non-torturous prison. You have to realize that if you have a stance against the death penalty, and for prison reform, you are arguing on behalf of the bad people as well as the good.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:46
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Nothing will happen to them and everyone in this thread knows it and pointing out that our rhetoric is heated only distracts from that fact.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:49
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ActusRhesus posted:so supporting prison sentences for murder = supporting anal hummus smoothies. Well, when you consider what the US prison system's like, it's honestly not that far off. Fox does make a compelling argument about this whole torture thing, though.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:50
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