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Complaining about tone arguments when we just got a list of torture performed by a government agency that is still engaging in such and no one will be punished is really missing the forest for the trees.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:50
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Speaking of prosecutions, has a government ever really massively persecuted it's own former officals without there being a revolution or something close to it? I really can't think of any, and that's sad.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:51
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Unhinged Vulcan posted:you give the CIA too much credit. seriously, they would gently caress that up. That's the double whammy of reading this. It isn't just that they were evil and cruel, it's that they were stupidly and incompetently evil to little benefit. I guarantee everyone at the CIA gets a little stiffy at the thought that they do the dark things that no one else is willing to do, but from reading this I get the impression it's just college kids playing at 24 with an unlimited budget and no accountability. At least there's the small consolation that the actual torturers repeatedly asked to stop and thought the whole thing was bullshit on multiple occasions. gently caress their superiors though, and ultimately gently caress them anyway. It's seriously hosed up that when I got to KSM openly loving with his interrogators that I felt some sympathy for the guy. If you're going to get tortured for months or years, why not make up nefarious terrorist agents and report that you have a group of black muslim recruits in Montana? They're going to torture you regardless so just go nuts. Of course the CIA took his bullshit and used it to capture and interrogate at least two innocent people so even that ends up too depressing to be funny.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:54
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Orange Devil posted:An unknown number of dogs, Portugese and otherwise, would have gotten raped, tortured and killed by the CIA or third parties in service of the CIA. Evidence that very serious people would claim was compelling would be presented to the UN showing Portugal to be a rogue terrorist state that must be invaded. Bombing would commence shortly, within a few years, Brazil would be invaded for good measure. Ah, when outlandish jokes yet still manage to strike far too close to the issue. Folks should be reminded or made aware that part of the inspiration for this torture program arose from a certain Psychologist by the name of Martin Seligman. "Learned Helplessness" "In learned helplessness studies, an animal is repeatedly exposed to an aversive stimulus(see: Torture) which it cannot escape. Eventually, the animal stops trying to avoid the stimulus and behaves as if it is helpless to change the situation. When opportunities to escape become available, learned helplessness means the animal does not take any action." All the methods make a sort of perverse sense if the objective is to psychologically devastate the individuals into submission. And hey, he may have consulted and helped create this specific program even, having had many meetings with individuals as it was getting revved up. What's this brilliant fellow up to nowadays? Well.. http://www.salon.com/2010/10/14/army_contract_seligman/ Salon posted:The Army earlier this year steered a $31 million contract to a psychologist whose work formed the psychological underpinnings of the Bush administration’s torture program.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:56
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If you thought the CIA was some amazingly competent super-spy-force before this, you haven't been paying attention.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:57
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Zeitgueist posted:If you thought the CIA was some amazingly competent super-spy-force before this, you haven't been paying attention. I agree with you but most of this country (and certainly its leadership) is clearly under this delusion.
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Dec 10, 2014 17:58
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tentative8e8op posted:Rhesus has a good point though, and I also really dont think its okay to have the likes of Yoo summarily tortured or killed. They should be turned over to a (foreign) court to face prison time imo; no one here is arguing such that the perpetrators shouldn't be punished. People with political power engaging in criminal acts, especially when it's official malfeasance at a senior level, are the one group where there are justifiable, practical reason for executions. There are reasons other than bloodlust to execute the Ollie Norths and John Yoos out there. One of the arguments against execution is that sometimes innocent people are convicted. This is not really an issue in these cases because there is no question about what happened. There are documents with peoples' signatures on them telling them to commit crimes, and additional documents that detail those crimes that we passed up the chain of command. The actions themselves aren't in question, rather the legality of them - if the actions are illegal, there is guilt not just beyond a reasonable doubt but beyond all doubt. Senior government officials are also going to have the resources to ensure adequate representation and a fair trial that may be denied to, say, an indigent suspect in a capital murder case. The other main argument is that it serves no purpose - if you can imprison someone they are removed from society just as effectively. This is less true for senior government officials and even more so for actual politicians. For gently caress's sake, Oliver North is still a reasonably influential person and publicly advocates for more or less the same poo poo he was convicted of. And of course there's Napolean, if you really want to use an extreme example. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 17:58
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Gorelab posted:Speaking of prosecutions, has a government ever really massively persecuted it's own former officals without there being a revolution or something close to it? I really can't think of any, and that's sad. france does this to like, every president they have.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:05
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The CIA is an organization of murderers, torturers, sadists, and their willing enablers. It needs to be shut down, its members imprisoned, and prevented from ever being revived. It has no benefit to anyone who isn't actively malicious.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:09
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Zeitgueist posted:If you thought the CIA was some amazingly competent super-spy-force before this, you haven't been paying attention. Uhm...it's the federal government. Of course it's incompetent. At the risk of being called a concern troll, however, the editorial in the WSJ raises a lot of valid issues about the report...not its content, which is horrifying, but the manner of its delivery. I've had to do government investigations and it's boilerplate that a proper investigation includes recommendations. This one included none. Which can be used to take attention away from the content and turn it into "They don't actually care! They just wanted people to stop talking about Gruber" and the valid issues get lost in the political noise. They should have done a complete investigation which would have included attempting to interview more people involved in CIA leadership (and documenting if they refused to cooperate) and making recommendations for how to fix the obvious failures here. (starting with "don't put hummus up people's asses.) But then...see first sentence.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:09
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Wow, reading some of these things in the OP.... The evil empire that needs to be brought to its knees? Yeah, that's us. How did it come to this? What the gently caress? This is some ISIS level terrorism. Zeitgueist posted:If you thought the CIA was some amazingly competent super-spy-force before this, you haven't been paying attention. I thought CIA agents were either real life versions of Jason Bourne or James Bond.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:10
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It's only ineffective and harmful because it's actively sabotaged and manipulated by people like you, Rhesus.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:12
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CheesyDog posted:Nothing will happen to them and everyone in this thread knows it and pointing out that our rhetoric is heated only distracts from that fact. Yes.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:12
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State actors have a pretense of legitimacy, which both increases the inherent severity of any crimes and the amount of responsibility they are obligated with. Executions seem reasonable, under this standard. It's not like they have to be particularly egregious. We just need to make the consequences of torturing people much worse than the consequences of not torturing people. It also gives potential leverage for commuting sentences in exchange for more in-depth information on criminal activities by clandestine organizations.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:13
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ActusRhesus posted:Uhm...it's the federal government. Of course it's incompetent. Well, don't forget that it likely would not have happened if they waited even a week (unless Udall made good on his threat). Add to that the CIA destroying evidence (all the videotapes), and what, hacking into their computers to remove documents? There's no way the CIA would have cooperated helpfully, seeing as they already were doing the precise opposite. This is about the only way this was ever going to come out, unfortunately. edit: and hell, I'm willing to bet Udall's threat was the only reason it did anyway. hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 18:13
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ActusRhesus posted:Uhm...it's the federal government. Of course it's incompetent. It's not necessarily a post aimed at anyone specifically, but a significant number of people in this country think the CIA is, at least, competent, but then history.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:13
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I'll say it again, anyone who complains about the incompetence of the gubbermint has never worked at a very large company.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:15
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Radbot posted:I'll say it again, anyone who complains about the incompetence of the gubbermint has never worked at a very large company. Oh yeah, every time someone trots out "businesses will do it smarter and better than government" I laugh in their face.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:19
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literally everyone in america is incompetent.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:19
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ActusRhesus posted:Uhm...it's the federal government. Of course it's incompetent. Any "recommendation" section to state torture would necessitate criminal proceedings of people whom the authors are likely on first-name terms with, and the function of American laws are to keep the poor in check.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:20
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An Angry Bug posted:It's only ineffective and harmful because it's actively sabotaged and manipulated by people like you, Rhesus. Elaborate on this, please. 
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Dec 10, 2014 18:21
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Was Obama's "We tortured some folks" comment laying the groundwork for the revelation of this report?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:22
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Willie Tomg posted:Any "recommendation" section to state torture would necessitate criminal proceedings of people whom the authors are likely on first-name terms with, and the function of American laws are to keep the poor in check. true. It could also include recommendations for restructuring, oversight, changes to reporting channels, etc. etc. There was a lot of opportunity to actually make a positive change here. I think we can all agree that the stuff in here is pretty awful. Who knew? What was done when they knew? What type of oversights need to be put in place so it doesn't happen again?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:22
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double post.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:22
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Radbot posted:I'll say it again, anyone who complains about the incompetence of the gubbermint has never worked at a very large company. Or, hell, even a medium-sized one. The sheer amount of bullshit ideas from 'management' that has to be put into practice that ends up wasting money for no gain is loving atrocious. ... Much like the mindset that led to the actions described in the report, in fact.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:25
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John McCain's speech in that Fox story someone linked is really good and it tells you everything you need to know about FOX to look at all the headlines on the page ('CIA report another attempt by Democrats to attack Bush?','Woolsey: Release of CIA report a 'great disservice' to US') while listening to McCain clearly explain the exact opposite. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/09/senate-panel-releases-scathing-report-on-cia-interrogation-amid-warnings/ And of course the first sentence of the article starts "A Democrat-led Senate panel..."
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Dec 10, 2014 18:28
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Entropic posted:John McCain's speech in that Fox story someone linked is really good and it tells you everything you need to know about FOX to look at all the headlines on the page ('CIA report another attempt by Democrats to attack Bush?','Woolsey: Release of CIA report a 'great disservice' to US') while listening to McCain clearly explain the exact opposite. my favorite part: quote:Fox News' Catherine Herridge and Chad Pergram and The Associated Press contributed to this report. i wonder who wrote what
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Dec 10, 2014 18:32
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ActusRhesus posted:true. It could also include recommendations for restructuring, oversight, changes to reporting channels, etc. etc. It's entirely possible that the recommendations are in the other 6200 pages and were excluded from the released section because it is still classified, on account of the level of specificity expected in that would involve individuals and places still in active use by the intelligence community. It's less likely than there being no recommendation because nobody on the Senate Intelligence Committee actually cares about making things right and this whole document was generated as part of an interbranch pissing contest from the CIA screwing with them.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:33
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Jagchosis posted:france does this to like, every president they have. And Italy, kind of.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:34
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ActusRhesus posted:Elaborate on this, please.
(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2014 18:36
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Also everyone involved with the torture program and everyone who authorized it including President Bush and everyone who protected it including President Obama are war criminals who should be prosecuted by an international court and imprisoned in humane but effective conditions for the rest of their natural lives.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:37
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An Angry Bug posted:
i thought actusrhesus was a JAG or something?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:38
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I was listening to Catholic radio this morning because I figure Catholics are against torture, so this will be reasonable right? Instead it was an hour of how the world is just like 24, you just don't know man (and also atheist professors are making your children leave the church). This idea that the world is full of Jack Bauer situations all the time is, sadly, super pervasive. Do people have some good cases of instances where we accomplished things pretty much without the use of torture? I seem to remember we got Ramzi Yousef on simple police work, for example, but more examples are always good.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:38
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UberJew posted:Also everyone involved with the torture program and everyone who authorized it including President Bush and everyone who protected it including President Obama are war criminals who should be prosecuted by an international court and imprisoned in humane but effective conditions for the rest of their natural lives. I agree and also I want a pony 
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Dec 10, 2014 18:38
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Jagchosis posted:i thought actusrhesus was a JAG or something?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:39
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UberJew posted:Also everyone involved with the torture program and everyone who authorized it including President Bush and everyone who protected it including President Obama are war criminals who should be prosecuted by an international court and imprisoned in humane but effective conditions for the rest of their natural lives.  And with none of that likely to happen it's funny when folks complain about political apathy.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:39
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We should either legalize torture or prosecute the torturers.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:39
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So where was the money in all of this? I'm assuming one of the major reasons why this poo poo got so bad is because the people in power were making an absolute killing from it, but what were the most likely mechanisms and who was most likely to be profiting? Did they just straight-up skim off the top, or did the people this was contracted out to have some very important shareholders?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:41
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An Angry Bug posted:The heck is that? a military lawyer that primarily does military justice, operational law, personal legal services or administrative law stuff. maybe a few of them were involved in the torture thing, but the main "legal" footwork was done by the OLC and DOJ
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Dec 10, 2014 18:41
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Zeitgueist posted:
[sarcasm]Um have you tried writing your congressman?[/sarcasm]
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Dec 10, 2014 18:41
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