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An Angry Bug posted:
Man Rhesus is responsible for all that? How does this guy have the free time to post?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:42
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An Angry Bug posted:
I was responsible for all of that? My, I've been busy.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:43
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I said "people like you", you disingenuous smarmy little bootlick.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:44
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Can we not have yet another thread about our resident prosecutor?
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Dec 10, 2014 18:44
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Jagchosis posted:a military lawyer that primarily does military justice, operational law, personal legal services or administrative law stuff. maybe a few of them were involved in the torture thing, but the main "legal" footwork was done by the OLC and DOJ Former JAG, actually, but close enough. I know a few JAGs involved in the Commissions as both prosecutors and defense and don't even get me started on what a poo poo-show that is...and I know there was an extremely small number on the NSA council who were involved in Game of Drones. But I honestly can't say I know any who were involved in the CIA stuff. (If there are, they would be an extremely small number) Totally different agency. Totally different lawyers.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:46
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Yes, ignoring him will certainly work. And the fist about to hit you stops existing if you close your eyes.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:47
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An Angry Bug posted:I said "people like you", you disingenuous smarmy little bootlick. ok, how exactly am I "like them"? CheesyDog posted:Can we not have yet another thread about our resident prosecutor? Would love to. But you and your friends seem to love turning everything into a personal attack on me, so...you know...Down with the man, or some poo poo.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:47
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Are any of you familiar with the CIA's last 40 years? Does this represent them getting worse or going rogue or what? I don't have the greatest sense of context here.
Accretionist fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 18:49
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ActusRhesus posted:Former JAG, actually, but close enough. So youre a JAG off
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Dec 10, 2014 18:51
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Accretionist posted:Are any of you familiar with the CIA's last 40 years? Does this represent them getting worse or going rogue or what? I don't have the greatest sense of context here.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:55
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MariusLecter posted:So youre a JAG off heh. that was our softball team's name.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:56
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:This is pretty much the CIA's raison d'etre: do stupid poo poo, get caught, do stupid poo poo, get caught... you left out "make cryptic  comments to make sure everyone knows you are in the CIA without saying CIA, then freak out when asked "so how do you like working for the CIA"" because that's pretty much all they did in Iraq...at least the ones I met.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:58
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An Angry Bug posted:I said "people like you", you disingenuous smarmy little bootlick. Please for the love of loving God stop posting unless you have a coherent point, you've already got at least four entire subforums laughing at you and you specifically because you can't keep your big dribbly mouth shut. The CIA are unlikely to ever see consequences for their actions because of the whole "you'll only know our failures" thing. Their entire career could be a series of fuckups on the level of these reports, but we'll never know for certain and they'll never see it that way, so they'll keep on trucking as always.
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Dec 10, 2014 18:58
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Darth Walrus posted:So where was the money in all of this? I'm assuming one of the major reasons why this poo poo got so bad is because the people in power were making an absolute killing from it, but what were the most likely mechanisms and who was most likely to be profiting? Did they just straight-up skim off the top, or did the people this was contracted out to have some very important shareholders? There were some torture psychologists who made $81 million off of it. One of the things that appears to have been redacted is where all the money goes, cause ain't nobody wanna follow the money. Yes though, it is safe to assume companies contracting employees to these torture holes made a killing. I mean it was torture that got the right confessions needed to kickstart the biggest business event of 2003. So that pays for itself there. People ITT still talking as if the purpose of torture was to get reliable intelligence instead of just false confessions to justify war profiteering. Wait... are we in a Hideo Kojima game?
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Dec 10, 2014 19:09
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ActusRhesus posted:Former JAG, actually, but close enough. given the apparent presence of military personnel i imagine at least one commander turned to his or her JAG and asked "this is okay, right?" with the JAG nervously tugging their collar and saying "...Yes, sir" there that is my military fanfiction
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Dec 10, 2014 19:09
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A Dumb Bitch posted:"The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome," she said. "We’ve closed the book on it, and we’ve stopped doing it. And the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are. This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PgIKAukheo
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Dec 10, 2014 19:10
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Darth Walrus posted:So where was the money in all of this? I'm assuming one of the major reasons why this poo poo got so bad is because the people in power were making an absolute killing from it, but what were the most likely mechanisms and who was most likely to be profiting? Did they just straight-up skim off the top, or did the people this was contracted out to have some very important shareholders? As is pretty much par for the course in the war on terror, friendly contractors got no-bid contracts for tens of millions of dollars to be incompetent at what they promised they could accomplish.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:13
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ActusRhesus posted:Fair point. Please relay that the Sedan Chair who seems to think retribution is never valid philosophy. Except for the times when he does. You're silly. I want John Yoo to be beheaded, but I am emotional and irrational and my views should not be taken into account by the justice system. Just like you shouldn't take the views of irrational, emotional victims of crime into account.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:16
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Reminder; this is a full grown adult with a job, car, house and I'm assuming children.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:20
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Xandu posted:They detained and rendered a dissident to Libya. At first glance this seems horrible, but after thinking about it, I honestly wonder if this won't be a net improvement for the dude. Libya's in the midst of a civil war and there's barely a "government" left, so rather than throw him in a Libyan prison they might just end up turning the dude loose so that they don't have to feed, clothe, and constantly guard him. Now, he's still gonna be stuck in Libya with no real way forward. E: Or did this happen some time in the past, like back when Gaddafi was still in power? fade5 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 19:20
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Jagchosis posted:given the apparent presence of military personnel i imagine at least one commander turned to his or her JAG and asked "this is okay, right?" with the JAG nervously tugging their collar and saying "...Yes, sir" While there probably was military present, the way they would be assigned, I doubt JAGs would have been the operational advisers.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:20
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Accretionist posted:Are any of you familiar with the CIA's last 40 years? Does this represent them getting worse or going rogue or what? I don't have the greatest sense of context here. It depends whether you think the torture of a couple dozen dudes is pretty horrible, or if secret "nation building" through secret installations and assassination attempts of world leaders has had a worse effect on the country. Seriously, when the CIA first came into existence, some guy must have been late to the meeting and spouted out the first idea he could think of "Well, we don't like their leaders, so how about we install our own?" and nobody told him how dumb that sounded so it just kind of existed by the sake of no one really objecting.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:25
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MariusLecter posted:Reminder; this is a full grown adult with a job, car, house and I'm assuming children. All without a functioning brain. Just goes to show what a photogenic face and nice tits can get you at Fox News.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:28
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pathetic little tramp posted:It depends whether you think the torture of a couple dozen dudes is pretty horrible, or if secret "nation building" through secret installations and assassination attempts of world leaders has had a worse effect on the country. This is the Keystone Kops of intelligence agencies, after all. I've honestly got no idea how people can think the CIA is competent, when every single publicly known thing is a complete debacle. Maybe they do something well, but I think they should put up or shut up. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 19:35
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The kind of people that constantly bitch about government incompetence have absurd amounts of faith in police, military, secret spy poo poo, and the death penalty. Basically they are authoritarians that are ok as long as someone is bullying any one that isn't them.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:40
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Radish posted:The kind of people that constantly bitch about government incompetent have absurd amounts of faith in police, military, secret spy poo poo, and the death penalty. Its funny how their hypocrisy works. They bitch and moan about taxes, but bitch and moan everytime we cut DoD spending. Bitch and moan about benefits for veterans and soldiers, but then bitch and moan that we spend money. Its almost as if they have no understand of how reality works.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:42
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It clicked for me once I realized America is full of spiteful garbage that doesn't want to pay pennies to help anyone but will gladly fork over as much money as needed to kill and torture (both domestically and abroad) out of petty vengeance. What really gets me is the constant talk about Christian Values and American honor while doing it.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:51
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Radish posted:It clicked for me once I realized America is full of spiteful garbage that doesn't want to pay pennies to help anyone but will gladly fork over as much money as needed to kill and torture out of vengeance. Yup. And the military is full of these people.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:52
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CommieGIR posted:Yup. And the military is full of these people. I doubt the people actually acting in the army give much a rip either way, the constant funding geyser exists at Congress' behest with a lot of urging from whoever manufactures the military's hardware. Military personnel themselves would probably prefer if some of that money went towards more sensible amenities, like body armor that would make them die less.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:59
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nopantsjack posted:There were some torture psychologists who made $81 million off of it. One of the things that appears to have been redacted is where all the money goes, cause ain't nobody wanna follow the money. Yes though, it is safe to assume companies contracting employees to these torture holes made a killing. Um, there's a cartoonishly evil terrorist organisation with aims on creating its own state, they're fighting against Kurdistan which is a thing that exists now, all of this is further embroiling the west in a conflict that looks like it may never end, and Russia invaded Ukraine and attempted to keep said invasion a secret (because secretly invading a country is something you can attempt to do apparently). This is all clearly a joint effort by Kojima and Clancy's ghost. I'm not sure how it could take you this long to realise that.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:15
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Jagchosis posted:i've gotten drinks with yoo and he is still utterly unrepentant so this doesn't surprise me at all. still good conversation-haver tho Next time you're out with him, could you stab him in the eye? Tia
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Dec 10, 2014 20:27
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Ohthehugemanatee posted:That's the double whammy of reading this. It isn't just that they were evil and cruel, it's that they were stupidly and incompetently evil to little benefit. I guarantee everyone at the CIA gets a little stiffy at the thought that they do the dark things that no one else is willing to do, but from reading this I get the impression it's just college kids playing at 24 with an unlimited budget and no accountability. There are also parts where it seems like intentional misinterpretation, or feigning ignorance, on the MON that Bush had issued. Seems like even though they were given the green-light to use interrogation techniques using prescribed methods in FM 32-54, and additional "enhanced techniques"(torture), that they couldn't even follow those correctly. i imagine exchanges often went: "I don't believe the memorandum allows for us to detain a person indefinitely because of familial ties"  "i don't, you guys do what you think, i'm going to look the other way, or maybe send an e-mail. I don't know. I really don't want to touch this poo".
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Dec 10, 2014 20:32
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Davethulhu posted:Next time you're out with him, could you stab him in the eye? Tia No, no, no. That would be wrong, and we shouldn't encourage death threats or vigilantism. No matter how tempting. Just convince him to go with you on a European Vacation.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:39
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Udall is accusing the CIA of lying. Just loving do it, Udall. Drop the full 6000 page report on the way out. It'll be glorious.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:42
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As far as "Russian" (The Russian state itself is actually pretty big in "outsourcing" such things too) "torture" practice is concerned: 1: Even they know that it usually does not work very well to gain actually truthfull information. 2: Some actors torture, knowing full well that the resulting intelligence is bullshit, but use the bullshit intelligence (which they happily shape) to gank someone they wanted to gank anyway. This can be quite profitable to those "actors", but is not very profitable for the interests of Russia. This is what happened with various great Soviet purges. Certain actors within the high state sees themself more as a potential target of such purges, and thus isnt very keen on that. Efforts at restraining such actors exist(ed), but have met with mixed success. 3: Other actors see torture as a sometimes usefull deterence tool. The state actually disagrees, since it this "deterence" also deters potential and real adversaries from reaching an accomodation with Russian interests. In pure powerpolitics, Torturing actually isnt a sign of strength at all, strength is the ability to gently caress with powerfull people, the torturer is just loving with someone who is by far weaker. Putting a huge emphasis on "look, I can really mess with people that are shackled" doesnt exactly project strength. In the case of the USA, it is "look, I can gently caress with people that are shackled and whom I didnt even capture myself! Be very scared of me!". To a Pashtun, that makes the US look like a bunch of weak idiots, or make them look like Chtullu, "Can rain death from the sky, but acts so weak otherwise, they are completely alien!". 4: Serious torture of important people usually means that you either have to kill them or their torturers later. Since option B isnt very available for the USA (to the best of my knowledge) that leaves option A. Since an important prisoner would generally speaking know this, he will be strongly inclined to provide as much made up "intelligence" as possible. Option B is by the way why Russian authorities are so keen on outsourcing certain acts to outright criminals. Disclaimer: The Russian high state sees itself as "totally cunning machiavellian awesomesouce", and often tries to act like that (very varying degrees of success). Reality is often different, but this is what they "think", or sometimes even "say in private" about this topic.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:No, no, no. That would be wrong, and we shouldn't encourage death threats or vigilantism. No matter how tempting. The ends justify the means. The ends being him having a fork in the eye.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:49
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Job Truniht posted:Udall is accusing the CIA of lying. Just loving do it, Udall. Drop the full 6000 page report on the way out. It'll be glorious. No loving way will he do it. You'd need to be an idiot with no regard for yourself or your family to piss off the CIA like that.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:56
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Radbot posted:No loving way will he do it. You'd need to be an idiot with no regard for yourself or your family to piss off the CIA like that. What exactly would they do? Murder a family member of a US Congressman? I dont see that happening.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:58
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mds2 posted:What exactly would they do? Murder a family member of a US Congressman? I dont see that happening. They would have to be hilariously dumb to try that. USA is not Stalinist USSR.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:00
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Mightypeon posted:They would have to be hilariously dumb to try that. Unfortunately one thing the torture report proves is that the CIA is in fact hilariously stupid. Whether they'd try something like that I doubt, sure, but their lack of stupidity isn't a good argument.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:01
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