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Radbot posted:No loving way will he do it. You'd need to be an idiot with no regard for yourself or your family to piss off the CIA like that. The CIA won't do jack poo poo but whine about it like they are now. Murdering a former representative out of spite and getting caught for it would put the agency in the ground.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:04
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mds2 posted:What exactly would they do? Murder a family member of a US Congressman? I dont see that happening. Going after his family is a bit far-fetched but while I don't expect anything would happen I also wouldn't be particularly surprised if Mark Udall suffered a tragic light aircraft accident.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:04
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mds2 posted:What exactly would they do? Murder a family member of a US Congressman? I dont see that happening. Well, if I were a CIA agent with a grudge, I'd plant kiddie porn or other similarly disgusting poo poo on his computer, then out him to the local PD.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:05
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He should just read it all out on the floor of the house. Pesky constitution.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:06
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fade5 posted:At first glance this seems horrible, but after thinking about it, I honestly wonder if this won't be a net improvement for the dude. Libya's in the midst of a civil war and there's barely a "government" left, so rather than throw him in a Libyan prison they might just end up turning the dude loose so that they don't have to feed, clothe, and constantly guard him. Now, he's still gonna be stuck in Libya with no real way forward. Back in 2004.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:07
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mds2 posted:What exactly would they do? Murder a family member of a US Congressman? I dont see that happening. Hed just be disgraced and then commit suicide by two bullets to the head.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:16
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pathetic little tramp posted:I was listening to Catholic radio this morning because I figure Catholics are against torture, so this will be reasonable right? According to the report, literally ever piece of useful intelligence, since nothing that came from torture was usable. Even the information leading to bin Ladin's courier came before the CIA got to torture the person that provided it.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:27
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duz posted:According to the report, literally ever piece of useful intelligence, since nothing that came from torture was usable. Even the information leading to bin Ladin's courier came before the CIA got to torture the person that provided it. Yeah, according to the CIA's own internal documentation, Jack Bauer ticking-clock situations are entirely mythical; in every single case the actionable, useful intelligence came from traditional, torture-free interrogation. There were several reasons for this; among them, the main ones seem to be 1) that trained interrogators are actually pretty good at getting information out of people voluntarily just by pretending to be their friend, and 2) people being tortured say whatever they think you want to hear, so what they say tends to be inherently unreliable for that reason; they'll scream anything that pops into their head if it'll get you to stop the pain. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 21:29
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Accidentally posted this in the USpol thread. quote:But with the impending release of the report from the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, I have come to think that President Obama should issue pardons, after all — because it may be the only way to establish, once and for all, that torture is illegal. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/opinion/pardon-bush-and-those-who-tortured.html?_r=0
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Dec 10, 2014 21:30
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Badger of Basra posted:Accidentally posted this in the USpol thread. I dont really get this. You show that something is illegal by persecuting the perpetrator for it. End of story.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:45
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Badger of Basra posted:Accidentally posted this in the USpol thread. Naw, it's running under the logic that to accept a pardon, you have to admit you committed a crime. And that acknowledging that torture is illegal will stop it. Because we apparently didn't know that.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:46
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duz posted:Naw, it's running under the logic that to accept a pardon, you have to admit you committed a crime. We were running along the operative "All's fair in love and war on terror".
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Dec 10, 2014 21:51
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duz posted:Naw, it's running under the logic that to accept a pardon, you have to admit you committed a crime. The flaw in this logic is that 1) none of those involved are willing to admit they committed a crime, and 2) a pardon eliminates the public shaming aspect of this, which is essentially the only negative consequence any of the perpetrators have faced.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The flaw in this logic is that 1) none of those involved are willing to admit they committed a crime, and 2) a pardon eliminates the public shaming aspect of this, which is essentially the only negative consequence any of the perpetrators have faced. Yeah, it's a really bad idea for many reasons.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:53
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Nelson Mandingo posted:The CIA won't do jack poo poo but whine about it like they are now. Would it? They'd probably just change the name.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:53
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euphronius posted:Would it? They'd probably just change the name. Enhanced Interrogation Agency
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Dec 10, 2014 21:55
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fade5 posted:At first glance this seems horrible, but after thinking about it, I honestly wonder if this won't be a net improvement for the dude. Libya's in the midst of a civil war and there's barely a "government" left, so rather than throw him in a Libyan prison they might just end up turning the dude loose so that they don't have to feed, clothe, and constantly guard him. Now, he's still gonna be stuck in Libya with no real way forward. Do you know how Gaddafi dealt with prison overcrowding during the Libyan Civil War? It involves a locked door, a can of gasoline, and a match. duz posted:Naw, it's running under the logic that to accept a pardon, you have to admit you committed a crime. You're right. All this would do is continue the precedent that the government can commit whatever crimes it wants and escape prosecution afterwards. We need convictions to enforce that this is illegal. Of course, it goes right to the top, and no president would ever arrest the former president from the rival party because of the precedent that would set.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:56
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duz posted:Naw, it's running under the logic that to accept a pardon, you have to admit you committed a crime. Well, to be fair.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States quote:a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."
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Dec 10, 2014 22:19
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I find it hard to believe that a post Cold War CIA would be oblivious to the idea that torture is useless for intelligence gathering. Especially considering the targeted subjects were religious zealots willing to die for the cause.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:26
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Asproigerosis posted:I find it hard to believe that a post Cold War CIA would be oblivious to the idea that torture is useless for intelligence gathering. Especially considering the targeted subjects were religious zealots willing to die for the cause. Ha that assumes the CIA tortured only enemies.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:29
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Somebody needs to autotune that America is awesome thing so it goes full meme and follows her around for the rest of her life
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Dec 10, 2014 22:45
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It would become popular unironically, and she'd earn millions as a patriotic pop singer.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:47
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She'll probably do a by-election at some point in the future and fill a House seat down the line for loyalty like that.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:49
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Rep. Peter King: Senate Report Not Torture, Just People Having “To Stand In Awkward Positions”quote:Rep. Peter King says the 525-page Senate report on the CIA’s interrogation and detention techniques does not detail torture, but instead just procedures which create what King described as “tremendous discomfort.” I don't even know where to loving start with this, but anyone still blowing this poo poo off as "not torture" should have to demonstrate that they can withstand everything the CIA inflicted on people without breaking a sweat. I'd love to see how that works out.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:53
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Also isn't her blaming "this administration" for the report way off base? Doesn't the administration refer to the white house, or is it a catch-all term for government? I mean I know that's only like the 6th stupidest thing she said in that rant, but still. quote:Nobody suffered any lasting injuries from this awesmoe fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 22:54
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awesmoe posted:Also isn't her blaming "this administration" for the report way off base? Doesn't the administration refer to the white house, or is it a catch-all term for government? Expecting these talking heads to know what words mean (let alone understand basic civics) is expecting too much. It's just collections of buzzwords cobbled together into talking points that amount to "them bad, us good" with Them being anyone who's not a regressive troglodyte.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:57
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Rep. Peter King: Senate Report Not Torture, Just People Having “To Stand In Awkward Positions” Also, why are they continually claiming that we got actual intelligence from this, and that nobody had any lasting damage?? Did they even read the report? (what am I saying, of course they didn't). Seriously, waterboarding is the least of the bad things in the report. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 22:57
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Being critical of rectal feedings means you hate America first. Got it. Yep. I am really hoping that the full report comes to light eventually. Frankly, what we are seeing is the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:11
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Rep. Peter King: Senate Report Not Torture, Just People Having “To Stand In Awkward Positions” also not torture
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Dec 10, 2014 23:14
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Being critical of rectal feedings means you hate America first. Got it. One of the truly surprising things to come out of the whole Guantanamo Atrocities (as they will be known in our kid's history textbooks) was at least one rear end in a top hat Morning Zoo shock-jock had himself waterboarded to prove what a badass he was, lasted 9 seconds and on the air that day said there was no doubt in his mind that it was torture and shouldn't be done.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:14
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Being critical of rectal feedings means you hate America first. Got it. Mightypeon posted:Yep. I am really hoping that the full report comes to light eventually. Frankly, what we are seeing is the tip of the tip of the iceberg. Seriously, people. Next to team/partisan/emotional thinking, facts are, like, the least important thing. So, you learned them, got angry - and so, now what? Nothing, that's what. What you need is a Hollywood movie about heroic Congress staffers doing their best to get the report out.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:19
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Everblight posted:One of the truly surprising things to come out of the whole Guantanamo Atrocities (as they will be known in our kid's history textbooks) was at least one rear end in a top hat Morning Zoo shock-jock had himself waterboarded to prove what a badass he was, lasted 9 seconds and on the air that day said there was no doubt in his mind that it was torture and shouldn't be done. It's definitely worth watching the video. "It's absolutely torture." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TzGGsVt60
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Dec 10, 2014 23:35
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Chamale posted:right-wing shock-jock does a bit that ends up backfiring this entire thing was a bit, you know that right?
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Dec 10, 2014 23:39
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Christopher Hitchens did it too. Believe Me, It’s Torture
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Dec 10, 2014 23:55
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Unhinged Vulcan posted:this entire thing was a bit, you know that right? I haven't seen it mentioned much here in most of this thread, but the political reality in the U.S. is that the substantial portion of the country that watches Fox and listens to Rush 24/7 basically thinks that torturing people is fine and we should do more of it, especially if the victims of our torture are Arabs and/or Muslim. We're talking about like 35-40ish percent of the country would be my guess. Like, the people who just elected all these GOP Senators, Congressmen and Governors just now. In the face of that reality it will certainly be difficult to get much done by the U.S. I'm assuming that many of you live among such people, like I do, and have heard these sentiments expressed aloud. The fact that people would express the idea that torturing anyone, even our perceived "enemies", is an acceptable and even good thing to do, aloud and without shame, is a relatively new phenomenon that I don't recall being true before the GWB administration and Cheney's massive campaign to justify this, including John Yoo and the whole works.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:57
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Zwabu posted:I haven't seen it mentioned much here in most of this thread, but the political reality in the U.S. is that the substantial portion of the country that watches Fox and listens to Rush 24/7 basically thinks that torturing people is fine and we should do more of it, especially if the victims of our torture are Arabs and/or Muslim. We're talking about like 35-40ish percent of the country would be my guess. Like, the people who just elected all these GOP Senators, Congressmen and Governors just now. Way more than 35 percent of Americans are pro-torture: More like 53% quote:And according to past polling by the Pew Research Center and others, Americans are generally, and somewhat surprisingly, OK with that. And this is why nothing is going to come of this - over half the country is ready to cheer it on.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:01
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Unhinged Vulcan posted:this entire thing was a bit, you know that right? What exactly do you mean by that? He said waterboarding isn't torture, held a poll to decide if he or his co-host should be waterboarded, went through with it, and declared that waterboarding is torture.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:01
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Chamale posted:It's definitely worth watching the video. "It's absolutely torture." This is one thing I always found really sad. The second you put anyone under these situations, they'll tell you it is torture, but you still have assholes like Steve King who can't put two and two together. I always found this quote telling: quote:Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:01
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Mightypeon posted:I dont really get this. Agreed, but the word is 'prosecute'. 'Persecution' = state-sponsored repression of a specific person or group. Thanks also for that post on Russia, that was very interesting and I hadn't heard that point brought up so far.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:02
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Way more than 35 percent of Americans are pro-torture: Those question offer a flash hypothetical though and seem like push polling. The proper question should have been something like "do you think torture should be legal"
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Dec 11, 2014 00:05
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