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Boon posted:Like I said before, if you drop the side armor on the Wave Serpents to 11 they'd probably be much more balanced. There biggest strength isn't the shield, it's that there hard as hell to kill.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:56
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MasterSlowPoke posted:They'll have to sell a Citadel Protractor to help people figure out where side armor starts and ends on the Wave Serpent. It'd be really nice if there was some sort of diagram to determine non-imperial armor sides in the rulebook or something.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:22
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Slimnoid posted:It'd be really nice if there was some sort of diagram to determine non-imperial armor sides in the rulebook or something. It really is insane that they don't have overhead shots of every vehicle that clearly shows armor facings, firing points, arcs of fire on weapons and access points on the rules page for each vehicle.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:02
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My personal interpretation is that the Laser Lock rule was never meant to affect the shield burst of the Wave Serpent (I don't run Scatter Lasers on mine, since Star Cannons are baller) but GW's rules writing being what it is, what can you do? Like, why does a TL Scatter Laser on the Wave Serpent cost 5 points, but a non-TL Scatter Laser on my Falcon is 15? 
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Dec 10, 2014 21:12
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So I don't totally get how Formations and Knights and some Imperial Armour stuff interact. The army I'm building consists of one of the Militarum Tempestus formations, with plans for a Knight and a Thunderbolt fighter to round it out. What do I need to do to include all these neat toys? Would I need to run some allied Guard or Marines to take the Thunderbolt along, or can I even ally to a formation?
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Dec 10, 2014 21:20
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Master Twig posted:It really is insane that they don't have overhead shots of every vehicle that clearly shows armor facings, firing points, arcs of fire on weapons and access points on the rules page for each vehicle. This is a really good idea. Something that should go in the rules/description for each vehicle with its entry in the relevant codex.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:31
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TheChirurgeon posted:This is a really good idea. Something that should go in the rules/description for each vehicle with its entry in the relevant codex. That's almost as good of an idea as actually having the stats for weapons and rules a unit uses in a little graphic somewhere in the gigantic wasted space on their rules entry page.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:38
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TheChirurgeon posted:This is a really good idea. Something that should go in the rules/description for each vehicle with its entry in the relevant codex. While they're at it I'd like the 2nd Edition vehicle damage tables back, that poo poo was the best.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:38
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Stanyer89 posted:So we can all agree here that the REAL problem is not CSM but instead the bullsh#t Serpent Shields? Wave Serpents =/= Fun to play against. Nah, CSM has a lot of problems. All its good units are in Fast Attack, the HQ choices you want (Daemon Princes) don't let you use cult marines (which you definitely want) as troops, and shooting over 24" is pretty loving sparse. Not to mention, as Ghost Hand pointed out, that the generic Chaos Space Marine is loving junk. And when you compare it to regular Space Marines the gulf in quality becomes really apparent. It's like they only playtested it against the Dark Angels book, which has similar issues.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:47
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I want to get a box of chaos marines to sprinkle throughout my
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Dec 10, 2014 21:54
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Ghost Hand posted:However, I agree above that the real problem vs. Eldar is the Wave Serpents. Eldar is a codex that is AMAZING if you play it.. and AMAZINGLY FRUSTRATING to play against. I have said numerous times that I think the other codexes aren't so much the problem, as the Eldar (and to a degree the Tau) codexes are just overpowered. Well, to play a bit of Devil's Advocate: the SM and Knights codices (and to a lesser degree Necrons) are doing basically just as well as Eldar and Tau are, but no one seems to complain about them. I absolutely agree that the Wave Serpent is broken and bad for the game, but let's not pretend it's the only culprit in all this. If Wave Serpents disappeared tomorrow, Eldar would get stomped into the ground by all of the other broken, unfun codices out there. SRM posted:So I don't totally get how Formations and Knights and some Imperial Armour stuff interact. The army I'm building consists of one of the Militarum Tempestus formations, with plans for a Knight and a Thunderbolt fighter to round it out. What do I need to do to include all these neat toys? Would I need to run some allied Guard or Marines to take the Thunderbolt along, or can I even ally to a formation? Alright, so here's the best explanation I can give: you're already familiar with the "standard" Force Org Chart from previous editions, I'm sure. That is one particular type of detachment, in the same way that a square is one particular type of rectangle- but there are others, of course. Formations are another type of detachment, and some codices also include unique detachments of their own that may resemble the "regular" FoC you're used to, but with some changes. So if you want to use a MT formation, a Knight, and a Thunderbolt, you can take the formation by itself (because it's self-supporting), the Knight as part of a Knight detachment from their codex (which basically just involves spending the points for it and calling it a day) and the Thunderbolt would need to be taken as a Heavy Support slot from an Imperial Guard detachment. You could either run an Allied detachment or a Combined Arms detachment (the latter being the old "primary" detachment) for it. Alternately, if your group accepts Unbound you could simply take it as an Unbound army and not worry about that- you would, however, still be able to benefit from the rules for the MT Formation (but not any other special detachment rules) when doing so. Ignite Memories posted:I haven't played against eldar since their most recent codex. What do wave serpent shields do that is crazy op? It's a number of factors, really. The Serpent Shield, as mentioned, is an absurdly-strong gun (S7, d6+1 shots, 60" range, Pinning, Ignores Cover); that, by itself, is good but not game-breaking. However, combine it with the ability to twin-link its shots with the Scatter Laser and the bonus shots provided by the Shuriken Cannon underslung and you have a cheap vehicle that throws out 9-14 TLed BS4 shots per turn. Then add in Fast Skimmer status and the ability to get +1 cover saves (meaning an easy 3+ from Jinking) and you have something that is also extremely survivable (not to mention the ability to turn pens into glances if you don't fire with your Shield.) Then, as a finishing touch, give it Objective Secured just because and you've got a monster of a unit. Without any number of those features, it would be a lot less intimidating; I've run them with Bright Lances and other weapons rather than the Scatter Laser and when everything isn't rerolling to hit all the time, they're not nearly so powerful. Similarly, if you're not getting a 3+ cover save at will, it's just an AV12 tank, and anyone can kill that relatively easily. It's really the combination of different factors that makes the Wave Serpent such a powerhouse in this edition.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:12
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Thanks AbusePuppy, that's what I was kinda figuring but I wanted to make sure.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:31
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AbusePuppy posted:Well, to play a bit of Devil's Advocate: the SM and Knights codices (and to a lesser degree Necrons) are doing basically just as well as Eldar and Tau are, but no one seems to complain about them. I absolutely agree that the Wave Serpent is broken and bad for the game, but let's not pretend it's the only culprit in all this. If Wave Serpents disappeared tomorrow, Eldar would get stomped into the ground by all of the other broken, unfun codices out there. This, my last game against Eldar featured Wave Serpents. They did a lot of work but the rest of the army was not unstoppable. Eldar troops are still as squishy and I think psychic powers are still random for them. I lost because of not drawing any objective cards that I could use and because of a big misplay with my bikers. It could have, very easily, gone the other way. Wave Serpents disintegrate if you assault them. It just took me till turn 4 to get there.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:33
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panascope posted:Man I wish CSM was just a 'better' army. They're my favorite to play but I can only handle watching my units fold to Serpent Shields for so many games before it stops being fun. After playing CSM for many years, I found the secret is to buy a loyalist army instead Stanyer89 posted:My next game plan is to bring an unbound list of 6 Chapter Masters w/ Artificer Armour, TH, Shield Eternal on bikes and Orbital Bombard the ever living piss out of them. 
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Dec 10, 2014 22:41
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ThNextGreenLantern posted:It wasn't yours, right? nah it was mine I was moving house and had no room for them anywhere so I binned them In my defence it was a very stressful time and I wasn't thinking straight
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Dec 10, 2014 22:49
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Oh God. What have I done? 
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Dec 10, 2014 22:58
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spacegoat posted:Oh God. What have I done?  Now get painting 
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Dec 10, 2014 23:09
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That's gonna be me someday but with a BFG fleet.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:25
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AbusePuppy posted:Well, to play a bit of Devil's Advocate: the SM and Knights codices (and to a lesser degree Necrons) are doing basically just as well as Eldar and Tau are, but no one seems to complain about them. I absolutely agree that the Wave Serpent is broken and bad for the game, but let's not pretend it's the only culprit in all this. If Wave Serpents disappeared tomorrow, Eldar would get stomped into the ground by all of the other broken, unfun codices out there. I don't necessarily think so - every unit is rending, the amount of twin linking is absurd, there are a lot of things that are just SLIGHTLY too much in the codex. But I agree it is the Wave Serpent in particular that pushes it into the absurd category. Goddamn they look neat though.... :P
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Dec 10, 2014 23:30
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panascope posted:That's gonna be me someday but with a BFG fleet. Already got that taken care of.       
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Dec 10, 2014 23:36
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I know very little about BFG but those look kick rear end.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:39
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Basic CSM troops have one and only one real strength: being able to spam two of the same special weapon in a 10-guy squad (or 2 plus a combi-version on the champion if you really want to burn points). That makes them more flexible and a bit more focused at the same time: having a 2 meltagun squad rolling around in a rhino makes for decent antitank that can secure objectives, a double-flamer unit can deal pain to hordes, etc. Everything else is...kinda sad. Marks are lackluster, Icons are a laugh and easy to snipe, grabbing an extra CCW adds fast to the unit costs, the Champion of Chaos rule will see your sergeants slain so often it becomes pointless to invest in them, and somehow loyalists manage to squeeze ATSKNF and their Chapter rules (many of which are quite nifty) into a single point in comparison. I'd really appreciate it if the basic CSM came more expensive out of the box but also stronger. Making them base Ld 9 (10 with champion), getting the extra CCW, and having champion of Chaos giving weaker bonuses but no bad results, while allowing you to refuse to challenge with a Ld roll, would be a neat package for 15 points each, I believe. Veterans of the Long War could be a pseudo ATSKNF, disallowing being swept and granting the Hatred:Imperials rules for extra. Same goes for Berserkers and Rubrics. Give berserkers their base 2 attacks, but make _them_ have to issue and take challenges all the time. not wily Tzeentch sorcerers! The Tzeentch discipline needs to be redone entirely. It has the lamest primaris across the whole game, and the worst 'blessing' as well. for the deity of sorcery, that's just bonkers. Rubrics with a sorcerer attached should have relentless instead of SnP. Chaos Lords are mostly alright, but I still miss unmarked daemon weapons. And being able to build a Chapter Master-equivalent (Chaos Overlord?) with 4 wounds and and badder stuff would be epic. Daemon Princes needs to be a bit more like Tyranid big beasts: more options for specific builds, T6, 5 wounds, and able to get a 2+ save if they have no wings. And to unlock their deity's cult troops, of course. Having plague marines somehow being shy about serving someone who ascended into a Prince of Nurgle is another of those dumb ideas the book is so thick on.
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Dec 11, 2014 02:42
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I thought that Tzeentch and Thousand Sons were really well done in
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Dec 11, 2014 02:46
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Sephyr posted:[...] Daemon Princes needs to be a bit more like Tyranid big beasts: more options for specific builds, T6, 5 wounds, and able to get a 2+ save if they have no wings Where is the supplement that lets me do this with my walking Hive Tyrants?
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Dec 11, 2014 03:01
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Chaos Space Marines are pretty boss with Imperial Armour 13 , you just gotta pay a few hundred to get the units that are amazeballs. Seriously, Sicaran's and Fire Raptors. I mean seriously they're that good. Ally in a contigent of Renegades for Dirt Cheap Wyverns and mass bodies, have fun!! Hollismason fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 03:24
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BULBASAUR posted:After playing CSM for many years, I found the secret is to buy a loyalist army instead Sicaran's make me wet every time I see one. Only problem is, I do not play 30k in 40k because I in fact do not have a giant schlong attached to my neck where my head should be.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:31
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So Deathstorm is pretty neat, its just a shame it doesn't come with any dice or anything. Also wish it didn't come with Tyranids though, to be honest. They're nice models and all, but they're just going to sit in my closet along with my AOBR orks and my DV chaos units. Still, cheaper than buying the BA models outright, even at AUS prices. If any ausgoons want to swap their BA for my 'nids, I'm up for that.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:35
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Stanyer89 posted:Sicaran's make me wet every time I see one. Only problem is, I do not play 30k in 40k because I in fact do not have a giant schlong attached to my neck where my head should be. good thing you can use sicarans in 40k but then i guess your weird passive aggressive jab wouldn't make sense
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Dec 11, 2014 03:38
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Stanyer89 posted:Sicaran's make me wet every time I see one. Only problem is, I do not play 30k in 40k because I in fact do not have a giant schlong attached to my neck where my head should be. Sicarians are actually a HS choice for all the Marine books, courtesy of IA2:2E. Little underpriced, IMO, but hardly egregiously so by FW standards and I certainly wouldn't call someone fielding one a dickhead. They're awesome tanks, regardless, and everyone who can should take them by rule of cool alone (Also Fellblades). Edit: Blood Angels might be in trouble though, since if you want to take more than one you have to take a Reclusiarch, which might be a problem for them with the new codex
Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 03:49
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Stanyer89 posted:Sicaran's make me wet every time I see one. Only problem is, I do not play 30k in 40k because I in fact do not have a giant schlong attached to my neck where my head should be. I bet you don't even like playing against Forge World things because you feel they aren't "balanced" and "not part of 40k" too
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Dec 11, 2014 04:42
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REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:good thing you can use sicarans in 40k but then i guess your weird passive aggressive jab wouldn't make sense Bulbasaur knows I am just messing with him. He has his giant Forgeworld boner, while I'm over here like, "Just give me my regular plastic marines". And Sicarans technically should be a 30k model since they are from that time period, it was a friendly jab that should of been texted instead of put on a public forum I now see. Stanyer89 fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 04:43
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Two units of zoanthropes droppod down. My flying tyrant is behind enemy lines, and my walking tyrant is in range. Everything rolled Warp Blast! Prepare to die! 3 Rounds of using 4 die to cast warp blast on everything that can later the game ends in a tie with me not having cast the spell once. It's not the dispel dice, no! It just wouldn't cast. At all.
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Dec 11, 2014 04:54
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LordAba posted:Two units of zoanthropes droppod down. My flying tyrant is behind enemy lines, and my walking tyrant is in range. Everything rolled Warp Blast! Prepare to die! This is why I laugh when my friends say that drop zoanthropes are crazy and that I can just gib a knight or something like a drop melta pod. Witchfires have so many hoops
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Dec 11, 2014 05:06
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Ugh, Slaanesh or Nurgle for my themed 2000 point traitor army. Gonna buy me some Traitor Guard for Christmas. Here's the basic plan A contingent of traitor guard a contingent of Chaos Space Marines <- Possible Warlord A very small contingent of Chaos Daemons I have more Slaanesh models than nurgle ,but Nurgle seems more fun.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:21
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Stanyer89 posted:Bulbasaur knows I am just messing with him. He has his giant Forgeworld boner, while I'm over here like, "Just give me my regular plastic marines". I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Sicaran (and indeed many of the units from HH) fits into 40k. In both the SM army list and the CSM army list the rarity of the vehicle is represented by the ability to take only one (with some specific exceptions). Additionally, you would think many CSM forces would have access to this ancient technology, considering tgat for many of them very little time has passed in the Imperiums 10,000 year timespan.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:29
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If anything they should have more advanced technology as didn't the Dark Mechanicum, say gently caress you I'm out on Mars and stole a bunch of poo poo then corrupted everything?
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Dec 11, 2014 05:36
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Ghost Hand posted:I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Sicaran (and indeed many of the units from HH) fits into 40k. In both the SM army list and the CSM army list the rarity of the vehicle is represented by the ability to take only one (with some specific exceptions). I know how they fit as relics, in the game and in lore, it was a misplaced joke that Bulbasaur and a couple others on here would only get. Why are you still dragging this out?
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Dec 11, 2014 05:48
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Ghost Hand posted:I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Sicaran (and indeed many of the units from HH) fits into 40k. In both the SM army list and the CSM army list the rarity of the vehicle is represented by the ability to take only one (with some specific exceptions). They do! The Sicarian is available to CSM as of IA13, as is the Fellblade. They also get a better version of the Storm Eagle Gunship, IIRC.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:50
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Hollismason posted:If anything they should have more advanced technology as didn't the Dark Mechanicum, say gently caress you I'm out on Mars and stole a bunch of poo poo then corrupted everything? They're also not afraid to innovate while the Imperium is stuck finding pre-existing STCs or the more radical/untouchable elements (such as the Space Marines) making variants of existing tanks at the most. But then this innovation only results in hot garbage like the Defiler, so, not too much to crow about.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:50
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Also I'm pretty sure the Dark Mechanicum looted the forbidden archives of corrupted STCs and poo poo that were locked away in some vaults by the Emperor. That's probably where the Defiler came from
NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 06:08
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