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Why do relationships have to have a destination and why is that destination marriage?quote:Heaven as a destination for being good, Hell as a destination for wrongdoing.
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Dec 11, 2014 02:03
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CowOnCrack posted:Truth. Yeah, no.
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Dec 11, 2014 02:05
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CowOnCrack posted:Truth. We can get Truth from other sources besides a God, though. Truth can be a source in and of itself too, and some religions believe that Truth is fundamental and even beyond the scope of a God to change. Not to mention any number of other philosophies that offer a form of objective Truth without a God.
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Dec 11, 2014 02:07
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Who What Now posted:We can get Truth from other sources besides a God, though. Truth can be a source in and of itself too, and some religions believe that Truth is fundamental and even beyond the scope of a God to change. Not to mention any number of other philosophies that offer a form of objective Truth without a God. It's almost as if he's never played 20 questions. If a statement is not false....then it must be TRUE. Therefore TRUTH! Sure, not world altering truth, but truth is just an implied condition of not being false and being falsifiable
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Dec 11, 2014 02:11
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CowOnCrack posted:Truth. You can do that without God, I have a set of moral ideals that I look to in order to determine my actions, but I don't need to make them sentient and pretend that they can punish me if I don't follow them. I can follow them of my own volition. Which you would think I would want to given that I made them up in the first place. I daresay it's easier in some ways if you believe there's someone standing behind you with a big stick ready to club you over the head if you sin, but of course equally, if your morality comes from an outside force, there's always the possibility of evading it, or reasoning with it, or bargaining with it, which makes it really just a matter of your own powers of rationalisation as to whether you can justify sin. If the stick is in your own hand, it's rather harder to outrun, or reason with. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 02:56
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Twelve by Pies posted:Why do relationships have to have a destination and why is that destination marriage?
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Dec 11, 2014 02:57
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Nessus posted:This is really where y'all Jesus-havers have, in large part, hosed up - you've let the fundamentalists become 'the US brand of Christianity,' either out of distraction, indifference, or because their political agenda is close enough to your own to be worth losing a lot of souls. Part of why Pope Francis is so over with a lot of Americans isn't because he's teaching NEW things, it's because he's mentioning the parts that - for some reason - kept getting left out. As if - for some reason - economic justice was less important than controlling gays. Well, personally, if you propose the idea of forgiveness on one's deathbed regardless of how horrible you are, I'd tell you it was a Catholic idea rather than an American one, it's got more history in the old world than the new.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:01
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OwlFancier posted:Well, personally, if you propose the idea of forgiveness on one's deathbed regardless of how horrible you are, I'd tell you it was a Catholic idea rather than an American one, it's got more history in the old world than the new.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:22
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Nessus posted:This is really where y'all Jesus-havers have, in large part, hosed up - you've let the fundamentalists become 'the US brand of Christianity,' either out of distraction, indifference, or because their political agenda is close enough to your own to be worth losing a lot of souls. Sadly I was born slightly before Reagan got elected which leaves me not able to do much since by that point "Christian = capitalist conservative" was already pretty firmly established in this country. Though I do agree completely with your criticism, but I'm not sure if it was a "gently caress up" exactly. The Red Scare after WW II pretty heavily influenced US Christianity and people who advocated more liberal views were usually branded communists, even by our own government. The point is US Christianity definitely became very lovely and while some people are trying to change that it is very difficult. OwlFancier posted:Well, personally, if you propose the idea of forgiveness on one's deathbed regardless of how horrible you are, I'd tell you it was a Catholic idea rather than an American one, it's got more history in the old world than the new. It may have more history in the old world than the new, but it's definitely a very fundamentalist view on it. Plenty of Jack Chick tracts showing murderers and pimps and even a child molester saying the magic words and then getting into Heaven, while another one of his tracts shows a missionary couple who built hospitals and schools in Africa getting flung into Hell. I very strongly disagree that it's more of a Catholic idea. The whole "Rape and murder and repent on the deathbed and go to Heaven" is based very much on the Protestant idea that we are saved by "faith alone." In other words, what we actually do doesn't matter as far as getting into Heaven, it's purely based on what you believe. Catholicism actually frowns on this, saying that it's a combination of faith and works...not in the sense of "You must do x number of good works to get into Heaven" but that if you say you believe in Jesus but don't actually do good works, that's not going to get you into Heaven.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:36
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Nessus posted:Right, but I mean specifically the Jack Chick vision of 'devout non-fundamentalist, does good works throughout life, dies among the thousands he helped, eternal hellfire' vs. 'sadistic murderer, gets saved ten seconds before he's fried, goes to heaven forever' Oh it gets even better than that. The local fundamentalists have been trying very hard to convince me that if I *ever* once believed in God and Christ than I was and continue to be saved and will absolutely go to Heaven due to God's Grace. I don't even have to repent for my sins.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:39
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Bel Shazar posted:Oh it gets even better than that. The local fundamentalists have been trying very hard to convince me that if I *ever* once believed in God and Christ than I was and continue to be saved and will absolutely go to Heaven due to God's Grace. I don't even have to repent for my sins. There are a lot of fundamentalists who really struggle with people who recant later in life, which to them signifies that saying the magic words may not be enough, so in order to deal with that you end up with these rather tortured and elaborate explanations.
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Dec 11, 2014 04:06
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Bel Shazar posted:Oh it gets even better than that. The local fundamentalists have been trying very hard to convince me that if I *ever* once believed in God and Christ than I was and continue to be saved and will absolutely go to Heaven due to God's Grace. I don't even have to repent for my sins. here's the catch: are you white, straight, and male?
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Dec 11, 2014 04:06
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That's where the weirdness of "faith alone" comes in, what if you genuinely and deeply believed in Jesus when you were a kid and asked him to forgive your sins, but then you grew up and became an atheist? As far as I can see it, there's only two real solutions to this. 1. You accepted Jesus and asked forgiveness for your sins. You are now saved, no matter what you do, even if you grow up and worship Satan, because you asked forgiveness from Jesus when you were younger, you're now totally covered for anything you do and will get into Heaven. 2. You were never saved. Even though you accepted Jesus and asked forgiveness for your sins, God knew (because God is omniscient) that you would grow up to be an atheist, and thus didn't forgive you of your sins because he knew you'd reject him later. Most fundamentalists actually seem to believe the second...but the weird part is, this means that they accept the Catholic idea that salvation is not an instantaneous thing, and is in fact an ongoing process, yet if you were to tell them that they would deny it and state "I'm saved, it's already finished, there is no ongoing process."
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Dec 11, 2014 04:12
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icantfindaname posted:here's the catch: are you white, straight, and male? I am indeed
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Dec 11, 2014 04:13
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wait doesn't 'faith alone' just apply whenever you die? it's not like a blood pact that can never be discharged. is it?
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Dec 11, 2014 04:13
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icantfindaname posted:wait doesn't 'faith alone' just apply whenever you die? it's not like a blood pact that can never be discharged.
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Dec 11, 2014 04:19
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Nessus posted:Actually the entire mechanism seems to be a sort of blood pact. Witness all the stuff talking about pleading His Sacred Blood and so forth. Not to mention the idea (and this does exist, though it's not mainstream) of the idea of praying the blood of Jesus over someone. But yes the idea of when faith applies is the question, and it's only an issue for non-Calvinist Protestants. Catholics state salvation is an ongoing process that also requires works to get into Heaven, and Calvinists just ignore the whole thing by stating God chooses who's saved, so faith, works, whatever have nothing to do with it, it's just whoever God picks.
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Dec 11, 2014 04:36
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Twelve by Pies posted:Not to mention the idea (and this does exist, though it's not mainstream) of the idea of praying the blood of Jesus over someone. Sometimes they get a little overboard with that one: http://www.demonbuster.com/dolls.html "On Saturday evening I was watching television when my daughter of 2 came out of her room to tell me that her doll was moving by itself. I assumed that it probably fell off the shelf so to satisfy her I got up and went to her room . when I got there to my surprise she had a stuffed troll doll dancing in the middle of her bedroom floor to a Disney movie playing music . Being raised in church I began pleading the blood of Jesus and commanded that spirit to leave then the doll went limp and fell over on the floor. I took the doll outside my house and burned it. what would cause something like this to happen?" "Self pity lives in the sinuses. If you have sinus problems, cast out SELF PITY. One Ministry said they have much success in DELIVERANCE by commanding all the demons "IN THE HAIR" to leave as soon as they get started. DEMON LOCATIONS - Demons are especially located in the spinal column, nervous system, deepest nerve centers, ganglionic nerve center located in the bowels, emotional sensibilities, all organs, cerebral nerve center in the head, eyes, ears, neck, jaws, tongue, muscles of the face, and delicate nerve tissues of the brain. OCTOPUS/SQUID/MIND CONTROL - The U.S. Postal Service has a new postage cancellation stamp that is an octopus or squid. This creature is known in DELIVERANCE as mind control, and also has its tentacles wrapped around eight or ten parts of the body. SPRITE - Do you drink sprite? It means "A spirit; a shade; an apparition or ghost; an elf, pixie, fairy, or goblin". Have you been out in the yard and cut some grass with your mower or hand shears, or maybe pulled some out with your hands? Did you notice that it kept coming back no matter how many times you cut it? However, if you were to pull out ALL the ROOTS, or pour some killer on the grass that penetrated the ROOTS, it would not come back. Demons are the same way. If you don't get them at the ROOT, they will keep coming back like the grass. When doing DELIVERANCE, we say, "In JESUS' name I go back to Adam and Eve on both sides of the bloodline, and I chop you off at the roots". On TV there was a one hour news story about "Psychic Power" and "Psychic Warfare" that has been going on in Russia for a long time. They displayed this power, both real, and fake. I highly recommend you add these demons to your list to bind up and send back to the sender. If you talk to someone NOT in DELIVERANCE about DELIVERANCE, their demons will talking to you to influence you, and you could lose out on what the Lord has for you."
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Dec 11, 2014 05:09
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Twelve by Pies posted:Not to mention the idea (and this does exist, though it's not mainstream) of the idea of praying the blood of Jesus over someone. Well, kind of. We would say that works are the sign of faith, and also that works can represent a faith that is not yet realized. At the same time, to profess faith but still be a complete bastard probably means your faith is nonexistent. On the bright side of this (especially for those deathbed confession types who may die with a newfound faith but don't quite remember all the things they've done), there is the purgatory where you get all the time you need to sort yourself out before you go to the pearly gates, if that's what you need.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:17
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Well, kind of. We would say that works are the sign of faith, and also that works can represent a faith that is not yet realized. At the same time, to profess faith but still be a complete bastard probably means your faith is nonexistent. On the bright side of this (especially for those deathbed confession types who may die with a newfound faith but don't quite remember all the things they've done), there is the purgatory where you get all the time you need to sort yourself out before you go to the pearly gates, if that's what you need. Purgatory isn't actually in the Bible though, is it?
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Dec 11, 2014 05:49
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Sharkie posted:Purgatory isn't actually in the Bible though, is it? Maccabees, part of the Apocraphya which is not in protestant bibles.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:59
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BrandorKP posted:"I always give here, as an example, something many of you might have experienced, e. g., suddenly somebody comes to you and asks: "Do you believe Jesus was the Son of God?" Now this question is an absolutely inescapable threat, if you accept it as a question. You cannot get out of it, because whether you say yes or no, it is absurd. But you can do something else. You can ask back: What do you mean by this term "Son of God" ? -- And then the fear and trembling is on the other side of the fence. Then he looks at you and asks you to help him, and then you can help him and can say: "Son of God" is a very largely used symbol for a special intimate relationship between God and a human being. In paganism this relationship was mostly a relationship by propagation. In Judaism it was the relationship by election. But in any case it is a symbol which interprets such a relationship, and your question, my dear friend, can only mean: "Are we justified in using such a symbol for the event Jesus as the Christ?" And to this answer I answer fully affirmatively. " - History of Christian Thought These are words of delusion and meaninglessness.
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Dec 11, 2014 07:35
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SedanChair posted:These are words of delusion and meaninglessness. It sounds like a way to say "Jesus is just a metaphor" without admitting as such.
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Dec 11, 2014 08:13
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"I learned so much history I can't believe in the central tenet of my religion any more, but let me tell you how I'm still anything at all"
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Dec 11, 2014 08:55
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SedanChair posted:"I learned so much history I can't believe in the central tenet of my religion any more, but let me tell you how I'm still anything at all" Brandor has never told us what he is, despite spending several hundred thousand words on the subject.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:51
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Who What Now posted:Brandor has never told us what he is, despite spending several hundred thousand words on the subject. Orthodox Jabberism.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:57
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To answer your question about one thing faith offers that atheism does not, hope for some measure of persistence past death for one. As an atheist you die and... are now so much rotting meat. What do you have to hope for? Death is probably going to scare you a lot more than me when it inevitably comes for us. All you are is going to be nothing. You will be forgotten by everyone you knew, possibly even in their lifetime but definitely as they too croak. Your only hope is that Google invents immortality before that point- which even if they did is surely going to be out of your price range. Even if you could afford it then, all you are assured is a painful violent death later on thanks to the inherent dangers of our universe. If you're right, then that's the fate for both of us anyway. If you're wrong, then we may persist the both of us but given as you're spending most of your time mocking people with faith and urging whatever God there might be to go gently caress themselves I suspect I will still have a better time of it. Otherwise see you in hell, I guess.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:14
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Twelve by Pies posted:Most fundamentalists actually seem to believe the second...but the weird part is, this means that they accept the Catholic idea that salvation is not an instantaneous thing, and is in fact an ongoing process, yet if you were to tell them that they would deny it and state "I'm saved, it's already finished, there is no ongoing process." That's because they're probably assuming they'll remain Christian forever, because even though others may have felt the same as them and then rejected Christianity, they certainly won't. Right?
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Dec 11, 2014 14:18
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The Snark posted:To answer your question about one thing faith offers that atheism does not, hope for some measure of persistence past death for one. As an atheist you die and... are now so much rotting meat. What do you have to hope for? Read the quote Brandor posted. Does that sound like a person with faith to you? Also, sounds like somebody's afraid to face a truth they already know.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:22
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I know that Mormons defends the idea that one can mix politics and religion, but i wonder, is there other religions that believe the same heretical idea?
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Dec 11, 2014 14:26
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The Snark posted:To answer your question about one thing faith offers that atheism does not, hope for some measure of persistence past death for one. As an atheist you die and... are now so much rotting meat. What do you have to hope for? So... atheism does not offer something that atheists do not need? Maybe the question should have been "What of any value to a non-believer does faith offer that atheism does not?"
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Dec 11, 2014 14:26
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SedanChair posted:Read the quote Brandor posted. Does that sound like a person with faith to you? You could have just made chicken clucking noises. Still carry on, brave people without fear who are almost certainly not posing dramatically in order to better protect their own insecurities. True men fear nothing. So, how many pages back do I have to go to find the relevant post? Is it the one you quoted? That was him quoting someone else? I think the paragraph he quoted was silly and convoluted in how it tried so hard to avoid sounding absurd that it came right around to being so again. Nothing about it proves an absence of Faith though.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:30
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The Snark posted:To answer your question about one thing faith offers that atheism does not, hope for some measure of persistence past death for one. As an atheist you die and... are now so much rotting meat. What do you have to hope for? To have lived a good and fulfilling life and to leave a legacy to those I love that ensures a slightly better future. Which is pretty goddamn amazing if you ask me. The Snark posted:Death is probably going to scare you a lot more than me when it inevitably comes for us. All you are is going to be nothing. You will be forgotten by everyone you knew, possibly even in their lifetime but definitely as they too croak. Your only hope is that Google invents immortality before that point- which even if they did is surely going to be out of your price range. Even if you could afford it then, all you are assured is a painful violent death later on thanks to the inherent dangers of our universe. I already know what death holds for me, so what possible fears could it have? Yes, I will no longer exist, which means that I won't care that I don't exist. To quote Mark Twain: "While you are asleep you are dead; and whether you stay dead an hour or a billion years the time to you is the same. - Mark Twain's Notebook, 1896". Sleeping is not the same as death, obviously, but the point is that there is nothing to fear about it. Let me ask you something, though, why would you want to live forever? That sounds absolutely horrible. Everything you could do would be just as meaningless as your life on earth because what is a single moment to infinity? Furthermore, what is the point of this life for you? How can you possibly find worth in living 90 years on this planet in this oh so dangerous universe when there is an entire infinity to come after it? The Snark posted:If you're right, then that's the fate for both of us anyway. If you're wrong, then we may persist the both of us but given as you're spending most of your time mocking people with faith and urging whatever God there might be to go gently caress themselves I suspect I will still have a better time of it. Oh man, do I ever love Pascal's Wager. Here's the thing though, you've set up a false dichotomy. Either I'm right and your wrong and we both cease to be after death, you're right and I'm wrong and I get to tell your God what an rear end in a top hat he is to his face while you get to be a brownnoser huffing his farts for all eternity, or we're both wrong and it's some other God that may or may not have been conceived by mankind at some point. So what happens if the true God absolutely loves sarcastic assholes? Well then I come out pretty good in that scenario and you don't. What if God doesn't care about how we act on earth? Then again I'm in a drat fine position. What if there is no God but still an afterlife? Well hot drat then I'm once again just as well off as you are. So far I'm really liking my chances here. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 14:38
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nobody? ok, i assume that people here take the standard opinion that christians can participate in politics and war. Now that the strawman is set up i can point at it and say: bad opinion strawman, bad opinion. Thank you for participating.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:38
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The Snark posted:To answer your question about one thing faith offers that atheism does not, hope for some measure of persistence past death for one. As an atheist you die and... are now so much rotting meat. What do you have to hope for? Dwelling on the fear & concept of death with its consequences is not a healthy way to live, nor is following a fictional story saying immortality awaits you in the sky after your demise.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:38
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The Snark posted:You could have just made chicken clucking noises. Still carry on, brave people without fear who are almost certainly not posing dramatically in order to better protect their own insecurities. True men fear nothing. Death isn't so much scary anymore, but more of an inevitable sadness. Because all the great stuff this world has going for it is going to keep changing, and I won't get to see it. I will return to the same state of non-existence I was in before I was born, my body will decompose, and it will just go on. But I'd rather have the certainty of that than an uncertain afterlife. Having to worry about rules and the interpretation of rules, or even if the rules I am following are the 'real' ones for Christianity has no more weight than Hinduism, Islam or the Ruinous Powers. Yeah, death is gonna suck, but it'll suck a lot less than the alternative. Unless it's all some sort of 'every faith is true' mind screw, and then it doesn't really matter because the criteria for 'good' and 'bad' are so different across religious interpretation that everyone is getting into Heaven.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:40
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Vaall posted:Dwelling on the fear & concept of death with its consequences is not a healthy way to live, nor is following a fictional story saying immortality awaits you in the sky after your demise. it is fictional because it is borrowed from philosophical ideas and not in the bible?
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Dec 11, 2014 14:42
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All perfectly fair conclusions, but I prefer mine and have faith that it is more likely to be correct. We'll all find out in the end! Or just stop existing. Probably nothing to get worked up or smug about in any case. Who What Now posted:
Hey, we wind up in an afterlife where you get to tell God they're an rear end in a top hat, that's your call. Seems to me like you'd have to be a special kind of idiot to go that route though. The Snark fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 14:43
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The Snark posted:All perfectly fair conclusions, but I prefer mine and have faith that it is more likely to be correct. You illustrate pretty well the only reason people become religious—fear of death.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:47
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The Snark posted:All perfectly fair conclusions, but I prefer mine and have faith that it is more likely to be correct. The Snark posted:You could have just made chicken clucking noises. Still carry on, brave people without fear who are almost certainly not posing dramatically in order to better protect their own insecurities. True men fear nothing. The Snark posted:To answer your question about one thing faith offers that atheism does not, hope for some measure of persistence past death for one. As an atheist you die and... are now so much rotting meat. What do you have to hope for?  Why hello Mr. Pot, kindly give my regards to Mr. Kettle.
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Dec 11, 2014 14:49
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