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this does not sound as entertaining as I had hoped it would be
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Dec 12, 2014 00:07
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JFairfax posted:this does not sound as entertaining as I had hoped it would be Yeah you're right. Is anyone keeping an eye on those buzzword odds someone posted here a few hours ago? How far along are we? "It's not about stopping people getting into the country, it's about vetting them"
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Dec 12, 2014 00:09
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I see we're setting into the narrative of "We're full and we shouldn't have more people coming in but errrr people should be able to come in but be vetted. Also all immigrants are rapists and murderers"
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Dec 12, 2014 00:10
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That shouty lady is going to be thrown out.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:10
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Penny looks tired.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:11
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JFairfax posted:this does not sound as entertaining as I had hoped it would be Its just a farce, really. Its awfully depressing, but Paul Dare will be wanking himself blind.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:11
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Had to turn it off. Generating too much genuine fear for the slide into fascism we're facing right now in me. Like, it's catching on to a worrying degree.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:11
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That Penny Mordaunt is well fit  Had to lower the level of debate to something like the program itself.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:11
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The program proves that British people can't be trusted with immigration. Leave it to Brussels, I say. The tory MP is seeming like the least draconian one here, excluding Brand obviously. 
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Dec 12, 2014 00:12
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Pissflaps posted:Penny looks tired. She looks a little bit like Rebecca Front on the Thick of it. Also loving hell Bunny, pick your battles please yell at Nigel not the audience.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:13
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I liked it when Russell Brand was accused of using language that could cause the rise of fascism while farrage sat at the other end of the panel, girning.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:14
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I don't think Russell is enjoying listening and not speaking.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:18
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Boiling an idea down to its literal dictionary definition, the last resort of internet arguments.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:19
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:Had to turn it off. Generating too much genuine fear for the slide into fascism we're facing right now in me.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:19
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I know it's ConservativeHome, but there's an interesting blog post talking about the broad church nature of UKIP, roughly splitting it into five camps: Blue (Tory), Red (Labour), Grey (old), Khaki (ex-BNP), and Purple (libertarian). That said, the author does fall shy of describing it as facets of the same populism that is at the centre of UKIP strategy. e: Apparently, the shouty lady is a Swappie post-Delta loyalist.
TinTower fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 00:20
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How does one 'not take' a pay rise?
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Dec 12, 2014 00:26
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TinTower posted:e: Apparently, the shouty lady is a Swappie post-Delta loyalist. No that's untrue she left with rs21 in January. And then left rs21.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:27
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I think the shouty lady has been kicked out.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:28
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Pissflaps posted:How does one 'not take' a pay rise? Very carefully
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Dec 12, 2014 00:28
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serious gaylord posted:I think the shouty lady has been kicked out. Good.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:29
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Brand will either explode into a shower of premium cocaine, or just jive talking.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:30
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Farage talking about grammar schools as a tool for social mobility is... I don't know how he manages to miss the point so horribly.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:35
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Spooky Hyena posted:Farage talking about grammar schools as a tool for social mobility is... I don't know how he manages to miss the point so horribly. A lot of older voters believe Grammar Schools were a tool for social mobility: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/05/-sp-social-mobility-decline-elitist-education-david-kynaston quote:For what was in many ways an impenetrable, heavy-duty work of sociology, Goldthorpe’s analysis attracted considerable attention, including prompting a memorable sentence from Roy Hattersley in the Sunday Times: “Today it seems incredible that anyone ever really believed that children from the slums – badly housed, badly fed and badly protected from illness – enjoyed equality of opportunity with their suburban contemporaries just because they took the same examination on the same day in their 12th year.” In short, the strongly pro-comprehensive Hattersley was arguing in 1980, that the postwar mechanism of 11-plus and grammar schools, for that minority fortunate enough to pass, had been part of the problem, not the solution. Was that historically fair? Given that in 2014 the man of the moment, Nigel Farage, believes that the way to lick the current social mobility problem is to bring back the grammars, and given also the widespread collective folk memory of the grammars as providing unrivalled, game-changing ladders of opportunity, it is a question worth asking. They're broadly incorrect to think so but Farage isn't spinning this out of whole cloth.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:41
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ReV VAdAUL posted:A lot of older voters believe Grammar Schools were a tool for social mobility: I suppose they could both be correct that grammar schools were completely slanted towards providing for the middle class AND that they also presented the best opportunity that was offered at the time for a working class person to attain higher educational qualifications and attend university and things. It's just that if it's designed to increase social mobility for the poor it should probably directly do that, rather than trickle down from the middle classes.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:46
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Hey ukmt, if anyone here is a php and JavaScript developer, or at least is a developer that can learn fast, and wants a job in Gloucestershire, pm me. Can also offer cheap accommodation if you want to move.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:50
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namesake posted:I suppose they could both be correct that grammar schools were completely slanted towards providing for the middle class AND that they also presented the best opportunity that was offered at the time for a working class person to attain higher educational qualifications and attend university and things. The full article is well worth a read and examines equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome in education and the elephant of the room of social mobility; the rich have to be able to fall for the poor to be able to rise.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:56
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Pissflaps posted:How does one 'not take' a pay rise? The early slapdown about men speaking over women basically did for him and farage both.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:56
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Spooky Hyena posted:Farage talking about grammar schools as a tool for social mobility is... I don't know how he manages to miss the point so horribly. My old dad for example grew up in basically a slum in Bow in London but did well at primary school and got sent to a grammer school. Somewhere along the way though they became dominated by the middle class pupils because their parents could afford to have them tutored and ... feed them well! in preparation for the 11+. But there really isnt much point separating the 2 systems anymore, I fail to see why a modern school cant support both things, why add the level of complexity. Why deny a child a the right to some advanced teaching because they loving up some exam at age 11, they might excel. If think the point im trying to make here in this ramble is that the original grammer school system in its day was quite a good idea but its now irrelevant. And Farage is a jerkoff
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Dec 12, 2014 00:56
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If the quotes cited in QT today are accurate about the percentage of brightest pupils being failed by comprehensive schools (after years of trying alternative solutions to grammars), then it doesn't bode well for our long term future economic competitiveness. Whether the solution is more selective education within the state system, I don't know. For what it's worth, it's not just about the 11+, there is the 12+ (which I took), 13+ and 16+ - there were quite a few people who joined my grammar from the local (very bad) comprehensive at 16 and enjoyed massively better life outcomes as a result. Edit: Can't believe Dianne Abbott has no problem with extrajudicial drone strike execution after speaking so passionately against torture on the Daily Politics. Bizarre. Edit2: Apparently there is also a 14+, but it's mainly for people moving into the area. Prince John fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 01:15
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Seaside Loafer posted:Why deny a child a the right to some advanced teaching because they loving up some exam at age 11, they might excel. Its worth mentioning this that failing the 11+ does not necessarily mean you can never get into a grammar school. I took the 11+, passed, and went to a grammar school. My sister also took the 11+, failed, and went to a regular comprehensive. However she spent less than a year there before they agreed that she should have gone to a grammar school, and she left in year 7 and started out at a grammar school in year 8. More recently, one of my work colleague's daughter got a bad case of exam nerves and failed her 11+, and her teacher, along with the headteacher successfully appealed and got her into a grammar school. So if someone does mess up on the test but their standard of work and aptitude over their schooling to that point gives all indication that they should have passed and would do well at such a school still has a very good chance of getting in. Really though, wealthy parents don't have any bigger advantage with grammar schools that they don't have with everything else in life. Yes they could feed their kid well and get them private tutoring, they could do the same thing with their GCSEs later on to give them an advantage. They could buy their kid a car and pay for the insurance, which someone without said wealthy parents would struggle with or be priced out completely. They could give their kid a nice big lump sum of money for a deposit to get them on the housing ladder, giving them a big advantage over those who's parents cannot afford to help them in that way. Etc, etc. Unless things have change recently, when I was at secondary school it was quite a mix of kids from all different backgrounds. A few had astonishingly wealthy families, some had very hard up families, and the rest were all over the place. We were however seen as posh by the comprehensive schoolkids in the area and interactions with them were usually very violent. If we wanted to attack the concept of money providing an advantage in education, wouldn't private schools be a better target?
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Dec 12, 2014 01:16
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Ludicro posted:Unless things have change recently, when I was at secondary school it was quite a mix of kids from all different backgrounds. A few had astonishingly wealthy families, some had very hard up families, and the rest were all over the place. We were however seen as posh by the comprehensive schoolkids in the area and interactions with them were usually very violent. I would imagine being consigned to a lower caste could make one quite bitter. Also I'd imagine people opposed to grammar schools are opposed to private schools too.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:25
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:Had to turn it off. Generating too much genuine fear for the slide into fascism we're facing right now in me. It's about time the left became militant again. Maybe this will force the issue.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:57
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ReV VAdAUL posted:What are people's opinions of Abbott in general? Sorry if this has been said and I've just missed a bit the thing with Abbott is when you're on the daily politics and Michael Portillo comes across as more concerned with the plight of the worst off in society than you and you're meant to be the leftist then there is something wrong. Though in Portillo's defense watching him present various documentaries there was a distinct change in his outlook after he did the show when he lived as a single mother on benefits for a week and has seemed to have genuinely developed a conscience since, also his recent great train journeys in Europe travelogue show has been great. Holy poo poo I am a bad UKMT poster I have been defending Portillo. To save some face I have been thinking about joining the CPGB -(ML) as they are pretty active in Birmingham and do a lot of good campaigns, the only problem is they refuse to criticise any Communist regime so they are big supporters of the likes of lovely places like North Korea, what is the correct way to approach such a thing.
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Dec 12, 2014 05:54
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Phoon posted:I just moved so I have no internet, hence no aerial wire. I could try to watch live on my phone I suppose. poo poo missed this, whens the flat? Sorry for the double post. StoneOfShame fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 05:56
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I personally support the concept of grammar schools. The argument against them is that they favoured the richer middle class who could tutor their children. But with the comprehension system, instead those parents who could afford to move to a good catchment area get a good education instead, and any who cannot or will not move must either send their children to a comprehensive the rest of the middle class deserted or pay for private education for their child, which deprives the children who do go to these schools of the positive influences of the children whose parents care the most. While grammar schools were dominated by the middle classes, they did provide a a way for both middle and working classes to get quality education for no cost, and prevented middle class families fleeing cities for suburbs for better education. In the end, we traded passing the 11+ for good education for being able to buy a house in a good catchment area for good education.
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Dec 12, 2014 09:26
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Labour itself has long embraced the totem of "local parents decide" so the effect of bidding up good catchments is only going to get worse.
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Dec 12, 2014 09:36
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winegums posted:People still seem to think Farage is some sort of brave outsider and every time he looks like a tit on QT it's because the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corperation set him up with left wing plants in the audience. He can do no wrong because the cargo-cult that is UKIP spin failures into conspiracies. Not sure what makes you say ukip is cargo-cult
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Dec 12, 2014 09:36
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e: this reply to nothing to seehere There is already streaming and sets etc in secondary schools, the concept is obsolete unless you really want your children to have 'the best' (irony intended) then you have the option of private schools.
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Dec 12, 2014 09:38
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ReV VAdAUL posted:A lot of older voters believe Grammar Schools were a tool for social mobility:
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Dec 12, 2014 09:52
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nothing to seehere posted:I personally support the concept of grammar schools. If Grammar schools were brought back they'd only be placed in nice suburban areas anyway. Middle class parents co-opting a system designed to be egalitarian strongly suggests they'd co-opt a system designed to be tilted in their favour even more.
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Dec 12, 2014 09:53
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