|
emanresu tnuocca posted:In the meanwhile the Israeli authorities are claiming Abu Ein died of cardiac arrest The cool thing about that is that when you think about it, all deaths are caused by cardiac arrest. Find me one corpse whose heart is still beating.
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 12:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 14:18 |
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:But I think what you meant was the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, which burned 26 Israeli agents You're right. I was thinking of Al-Mabhuoh. 26? Those poor spies. Cat Mattress posted:The cool thing about that is that when you think about it, all deaths are caused by cardiac arrest. Find me one corpse whose heart is still beating. by the way that's "excited delirium" "My violent heart" it was truly a case of a man with heart disease who just up and died. http://vimeo.com/60259671 repeating fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Dec 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 14:05
|
|
|
The Israeli media is reporting that three of the suspects arrested for the arson of the bilingual school in Jerusalem were (surprise surprise) members of Lehava. What a surprising twist.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
A bit late but I'd like to add some stuff about why one might believe that Israel could be deliberately targeting civilians: basically because it's been done before and has had at least some success (note: I am not attempting to defend these clearly immoral and illegal actions, "descriptive, not normative" etc.). Stuff like this was done already in the yeshuv (pre-israel) days, then by the special night squads (where Moshe Dayan took part) who would use collective punishment of villages in the hopes that this would make the villagers turn on saboteurs etc. Shortly after the founding of Israel there's unit 101 (which was led by Ariel Sharon for a while) which also attacked villages of surrounding countries for similar reasons. IIRC Dayan took the initiative to form unit 101 and he's quoted by Benny Morris as saying (back in 1955): "The only method that proved effective, not justified or moral but effective, when Arabs plant mines on our side [in retaliation]. If we try to search for the [particular] Arab [who planted mines], it has not value. But if we HARASS the nearby village . . . then the population there comes out against the [infiltrators] . . . and the Egyptian Government and the Transjordan Government are [driven] to prevent such incidents because their prestige is [assailed], as the Jews have opened fire, and they are unready to begin a war . . . the method of collective punishment so far has proved effective." (I got the quote from http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story649.html) Then there's the Samu incident in 1966 which seems to have had similar motives. Bombing stuff in Lebanon around 1982 seems to have had at least short-term success as people really did become angry at the PLO for bringing down all that stuff on their heads leading to some fighting between PLO and e.g. Amal. Both Samu and the Lebanon bombings appears to have aimed at putting pressure on the respective governments (Jordanian and Lebanese) as well. Of course those bombings and the subsequent occupation led to the rise of Hezbollah as well so arguably the long-term effects has been very negative for Israel. From all this I think it's a reasonable guess that the idea of collective punishments is ingrained in israeli military culture and that some commanders might look at previous experience and reason that they can essentially repeat the expulsion of the PLO from Lebanon etc. I don't believe that they can do that because the PLO were in some sense a bunch of strangers ("distant relatives" perhaps but still strangers) in Jordan and Lebanon whereas Hamas and Hezbollah are "part of the family" in Gaza and Lebanon so in these cases the bombings seems to have increased support for them instead. EDIT: This stuff obviously doesn't rule out other motives being factors as well. EDIT 2: Oh, there was another relevant Dayan quote on that page: "We could not guard every water pipeline from being blown up and every tree from being uprooted. We could not prevent every murder of a worker in an orchard or a family in their beds. But it was in our power to set high price for our blood, a price too high for the [Palestinian] Arab community, the Arab army, or the Arab governments to think it worth paying. . . . It was in our power to cause the Arab governments to renounce 'the policy of strength' toward Israel by turning it into a demonstration of weakness." Dr Merkwurdigliebe fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Dec 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 16:25
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:But I think what you meant was the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, which burned 26 Israeli agents, got Israeli diplomats expelled from Britain, Australia, and Ireland, and doesn't seem to have done much to Hamas. Read the wikipedia article. In part, Israeli agents used forged British passports to get into Dubai to assassinate their target, and Britain kicked out the diplomat that helped forge the passports. quote:After the United Kingdom expelled an Israeli diplomat over the use of British passports, Israeli right wing politicians commented against Britain's "disloyal" action. Knesset member Michael Ben-Ari stated that "This is anti-Semitism disguised as anti-Zionism"
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 17:35
|
|
|
"Disloyal", Jesus that is the most entitled country in the world.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:I'll try to do a write up during the weekend, but it's going to be personally biased like all hell. You're the perfect person to do a write up because you know a lot of the specifics and backgrounds of the parties, but you're also a Jewish Israeli who sees the Palestinians as human and deserving of humane treatment and equality. You're (unfortunately) somewhat of a rarity both online and in real life, and I want to get some background on Israeli politics that isn't slathered in pro-Israeli rhetoric. "Personally biased" isn't a problem; that's half the reason I want you to do the write up, specifically because you're personally biased. 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Dec 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 18:56
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:The cool thing about that is that when you think about it, all deaths are caused by cardiac arrest. Find me one corpse whose heart is still beating. Happens all the time, or else we wouldn't have organ donation (other than kidney and partial liver donation I guess?). Modern medicine is actually very good at keeping corpses warm and their hearts beating.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 20:04
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:The Israeli media is reporting that three of the suspects arrested for the arson of the bilingual school in Jerusalem were (surprise surprise) members of Lehava. What a surprising twist. Just to give some background to the those who have just tuned in to ILPS - All Crap All the Time, Lehava is an organization whose stated purpose is to fight "assimilation", that is, miscegenation between Jews and non-Jews. They pride themselves on saving Jewish women from their abusive Muslim husbands and in-laws. Brainbread posted:Read the wikipedia article. In part, Israeli agents used forged British passports to get into Dubai to assassinate their target, and Britain kicked out the diplomat that helped forge the passports. I fail to see how that contradicts what I was saying.  I mean, other than what Ben-Ari said, and since when is a Kahanist to be taken seriously when talking about antisemitism (or anti-Zionism). If anything Israel got off lightly. Nevertheless, there was some minor blowback. And I was kind of tying it in to the Meshal attempt, which again, caused blowback, put Israel in a dangerous position in relation to Jordan, and forced them to reinforce Hamas.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 20:13
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I fail to see how that contradicts what I was saying. Oh my god. I am sorry. In my head I said "Read" as in sound "Red" (As in, I read the article, not telling you to read it!). I just pointed out what made me facepalm because its the same arguement that comes up all the time. Criticizing Israel for doing a bad thing = anti-semitic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
Brainbread posted:Oh my god. I am sorry. In my head I said "Read" as in sound "Red" (As in, I read the article, not telling you to read it!). I just pointed out what made me facepalm because its the same arguement that comes up all the time. Criticizing Israel for doing a bad thing = anti-semitic. That's all right. I should have read this more charitably. I've had an irritating couple of days, and this subject and this thread tend to exacerbate that. Buddies?  ETA: Well, seems like Palestinians managed an intelligence coup/someone got sloppy, and a full security analysis of the Hamas frogman attack near Zikim during Protective edge was leaked. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 21:37
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:
Video of what happens when terrorists tunnel into Israel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6q3F1fhfss E: Word is, the video was from the intel section of the field intelligence battalion. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Video of what happens when terrorists tunnel into Israel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6q3F1fhfss Israel bombs UN compounds, schools, and hospitals?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 01:50
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Israel bombs UN compounds, schools, and hospitals? You really can't comprehend I/P issues beyond the islamist talking points, can you? Israel bombs weapon systems used by terrorists, whether those systems are in Gaza City, Damascus, or Beirut.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 01:55
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:You really can't comprehend I/P issues beyond the islamist talking points, can you? Yeah, people were right about you. Welcome to the block list CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:00
|
|
|
Just imagine the kind of chutzpah one needs to muster to be MIGF and accuse other people of having biased one sided views.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:10
|
|
|
And now there goes the second user to my ignore list. So what are the chances of Area A becoming like Gaza becuase of the ministers death?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:13
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:And now there goes the second user to my ignore list. So what are the chances of Area A becoming like Gaza becuase of the ministers death? Uhm... Zero, essentially. I mean, there is a theoretical possibility of Israel dissecting the West Bank into a series of walled off Bantustans (which is Naftali Bennet's 'solution', fyi) each considerably smaller than the Gaza strip but that sort of thing would take years and really can't happen over night. The situation in the west bank is very different than the situation in Gaza, the degree of control the IDF exerts all over the west bank is much greater than that which it normally does in Gaza, hence the bi-annual 'mowing of the lawn'. Even if a full-fledged Intifada will erupt the IDF is not going to be able to go full combined arms assault like it does in Gaza.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:21
|
|
|
And just how enormously pissed off are the Palestinians at the moment? Is this a game-changer, or (horrible) business as usual?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:31
|
|
|
There hasn't been any exceptional popular uproar to this point, I'd assume many people are pissed off but so far things seem restrained. Abbas has declared 3 days of mourning so there's a possibility poo poo will hit the fan tomorrow or the day after once those are up. Additionally, the Israeli media is reporting that certain PA officials are demanding of Abbas to cease all 'security coordination' activities with Israel, at the moment PA police is pretty much instructed to provide intel to the IDF and basically do whatever the IDF and Shin bet request it to. Of course, these are all unsourced quotes at the moment so who knows.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 02:37
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, people were right about you. Welcome to the block list Man, the only thing you talk about in this thread is MiGF and the things he talks about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:04
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Additionally, the Israeli media is reporting that certain PA officials are demanding of Abbas to cease all 'security coordination' activities with Israel, at the moment PA police is pretty much instructed to provide intel to the IDF and basically do whatever the IDF and Shin bet request it to. Of course, these are all unsourced quotes at the moment so who knows. The narrative in the States is that the minister's death resulted from 'a lack of coordination between Palestinian officials on security issues with Israel.' For Abbas to cease 'security coordination' at this time is to feed the West Bank to the wolves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:05
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:The narrative in the States is that the minister's death resulted from 'a lack of coordination between Palestinian officials on security issues with Israel.' One might argue that the wolves are already devouring the west bank and that 'security coordination' is akin to trying to fend them off by letting them have as much as they want of it and hoping that one day they get satiated and stop on their own accord. Abu Ein's death resulted from being assaulted and strangled by an IDF soldier who as per usual used unwarranted violence and brutality against Palestinians who were legitimately protesting on their own lands.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:21
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:And just how enormously pissed off are the Palestinians at the moment? Is this a game-changer, or (horrible) business as usual? The fact that it was a PA official is pretty significant. If the PA wanted, it could turn the last five months of tension into a full blown rebellion pretty easily. The main reason they don't is because they're in a relatively comfortable position right now, and don't want to rock the boat too much. But if the PA starts coming under direct attack from the IDF, they'll probably change tunes quickly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:26
|
|
|
Baloogan posted:Man, the only thing you talk about in this thread is MiGF and the things he talks about. Only thing you talk about in this thread is what other posters talk about. Pot, kettle, shitposting coward, etc. My Imaginary GF posted:You really can't comprehend I/P issues beyond the islamist talking points, can you? You've been numerous times pointed out that the vast majority of places Israel bombed and leveled did not have any weapons systems in them, with accompanying proof. Do you have counteracting proof or do you just choose to not even acknowledge when you're proven wrong?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:28
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:One might argue that the wolves are already devouring the west bank and that 'security coordination' is akin to trying to fend them off by letting them have as much as they want of it and hoping that one day they get satiated and stop on their own accord. One could try arguing that Bibi is too much of a wolf; my understanding is that the prevailing narrative is that Bibi is too inactive. If the Palestinians want to deal with a Bennett administration because they don't agree with Bibi's policies, well, that really is throwing the West Bank to a wolf, innit?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:28
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:One could try arguing that Bibi is too much of a wolf; my understanding is that the prevailing narrative is that Bibi is too inactive. You're the sort of person who'd tell a battered woman that she should have known not to upset her abuser.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:33
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:One could try arguing that Bibi is too much of a wolf; my understanding is that the prevailing narrative is that Bibi is too inactive. Is the Bibi regime not maintaining the policy of creeping annexation as every prime minister since 1967 did before him? Did a Palestinian minister not just die on Bibi's shift while the PA offered full 'security coordination'? Arguing that the PA should dance to Bibi's flute cause otherwise Israel might elect someone who's even worse merely means accepting the terrible status quo and allowing Israel to keep doing whatever it wants to, cause 'you wouldn't like to see what Israel is capable off when it's really pissed'. Some serious domestic abuse logic there mate. In any way, Bennett will not be prime minister, Likud are still going to be the largest right-leaning party and if it won't be Bibi it will be some other Likudnik. And let me clue you in on a secret, whether it's some Likud schmuck or Herzog, life will still keep on getting worse for Palestinians, Israel will keep expanding the settlements and wolves will keep on feeding.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:40
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:The narrative in the States is that the minister's death resulted from 'a lack of coordination between Palestinian officials on security issues with Israel.' And Eric Garner was overweight, and Michael Brown was a violent thug. There are many narratives in the US. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:41
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:And Eric Garner was overweight, and Michael Brown was a violent thug. There are many narratives in the US. We like
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:47
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:The narrative in the States is that the minister's death resulted from 'a lack of coordination between Palestinian officials on security issues with Israel.' I'd still err on the side of bollocks on that, just because: A) Practically every nation responds to deaths at riots by firing misinformation at the wall. B) Like you said, its not really in Abbas' interests to not do this. Which leads me to believe that he probably was cooperating insofar as the protests were concerned but I assume Fatah are resisting full Israeli security control of the West Bank. Just having Israel fully take over policing of the West Bank would probably be a net positive if Israeli security services could remotely be relied on to be non-biased arbiters of justice which they have proven they currently cannot. Even then though it would essentially an admission of submission and wipe any pretence of authority Fatah has.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 03:58
|
|
|
Here's an Al Jazeerah article on the Minister's death: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/palestinians-mourn-slain-minister-20141211114125593909.html The funny thing, Israel could have easily avoided this whole thing if it had just, you know, punished the soldier who murdered the dude. Put him in prison for accidental murder or something, even if it's just for show and he gets the four-star prison normally reserved for bankers. Problem solved. The sheer stupidity of the Israeli government and the IDF just boggles my mind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 07:33
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Here's an Al Jazeerah article on the Minister's death: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/palestinians-mourn-slain-minister-20141211114125593909.html They could actually get away with most of their war crimes by investigating them properly and putting people in prison for them. Or even pretending to not be half-assed about it. Even the Chief Prosecutor of the IDF said as much. But the systemic opposition for holding IDF soldiers to any standard other than complying with bullshit orders from rear end in a top hat drill sergeants with too much authority and too little good to do with it is too far entrenched. There's a story now of a bunch of soldiers injured in Protective Edge who are being denied disability due to not having properly returned their equipment upon discharge (because it was lost or destroyed in the field where they were injured).
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 07:38
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Here's an Al Jazeerah article on the Minister's death: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/palestinians-mourn-slain-minister-20141211114125593909.html Every time they try to do something even slightly similar to this every combat unit in the IDF is up in arms about how 'They never let us do our job!' and 'How are we expected to even do anything or protect ourselves when we get put in jail for doing it?!' and so on. Keeping with the story that everything an IDF soldier does to hurt others is self defense. Despite them being 18 year olds who were given automatic weapons, and a lot of them were just
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 08:30
|
|
|
Same reason why the US won't do anything about violent cops. The instant you put somebody in prison you have 500 representative delivering talking points to the media how your politicians arent supporting OUR BOYS and you suddenly lose as many votes as if you'd been caught fiddling little boys.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 10:37
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:You really can't comprehend I/P issues beyond the islamist talking points, can you? That's a tautology. It's not that Israel bombs weapon systems used by terrorists, it's that Israel defines whatever it bombs as "weapon system used by terrorists". These words do not have their original meaning anymore, they're just a synonym to "target". Any Arab, by Israeli definition, is a terrorist; and anything can be a weapon in the hands of a terrorist, so anything at all that Israel might decide to attack is a valid target. Example: kids playing soccer on the beach becomes young terrorists playing terrorball on a terrorist training camp. It isn't possible to support Israel's past and current behavior without being violently racist.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 11:24
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:That's a tautology. It's not that Israel bombs weapon systems used by terrorists, it's that Israel defines whatever it bombs as "weapon system used by terrorists". These words do not have their original meaning anymore, they're just a synonym to "target". Any Arab, by Israeli definition, is a terrorist; and anything can be a weapon in the hands of a terrorist, so anything at all that Israel might decide to attack is a valid target. And let's not forget that by its own admission and past practice, Israel considers roads, bridges and petrol stations to be legitimate military targets.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 12:01
|
|
|
6 people were just wounded in an acid attack in Jerusalem. A couple and 4 kids. The attacker was shot and arrested.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 13:06
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, people were right about you. Welcome to the block list The relief is only partial, for some reason the site doesn't equally block when other people quote him (despite his name being right there in the quotation) so you still end up having to scroll past huge swats of posts on occasion. For the love of god people, stop replying to this person.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 13:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 14:18 |
|
|
Volkerball posted:6 people were just wounded in an acid attack in Jerusalem. A couple and 4 kids. The attacker was shot and arrested. gently caress. There's something about acid attacks that just gets to me, like they're uniquely malicious and spiteful. I had only ever heard of it happening to women who violate Sharia law, though?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 13:19
|
|