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Sharkie posted:In a kind of related case, I don't have a problem with someone saying "I believe in God, and don't have a problem with gay people, because Jesus never mentioned it," cool, whatever. I do have a problem with "I believe in God, and that means gay people are wicked and rebellious, hellbound and causing hurricanes." IRL only one of these has a chance of me disputing the person. And lest we forget: Kyrie is a possibly gay sociopath who is only moral because the church keeps him on the straight and narrow. Then, he condemns us all for not sharing his particular faith. This thread is about one mans condemnation of everyone for not being Catholic.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:34
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Sharkie posted:In a kind of related case, I don't have a problem with someone saying "I believe in God, and don't have a problem with gay people, because Jesus never mentioned it," cool, whatever. I do have a problem with "I believe in God, and that means gay people are wicked and rebellious, hellbound and causing hurricanes." IRL only one of these has a chance of me disputing the person. Well, obviously, the latter would suggest a moral imperative to support the creation of an all-gay fortified island nation in the pacific to attract all the hurricanes to that area and thus protect large cities from being destroyed by them.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:41
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Periodiko posted:This thread would be a lot simpler if people just realized that accepting a world-view that isn't consistent with material reality can still have a positive effect on the individual person. Kyrie claims that his belief in Catholic doctrine has made his life better, and it's totally believable that that's true. There's ample evidence that belonging to a religion can improve a person's life, and in that sense, it's a rational choice to believe in the irrational. Yeah just don't expect me to go along with it when they frame themselves as intellectuals.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:42
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OwlFancier posted:Well, obviously, the latter would suggest a moral imperative to support the creation of an all-gay fortified island nation in the pacific to attract all the hurricanes to that area and thus protect large cities from being destroyed by them. Or the renaming of gays and lesbians to "Weather Wizards." No legal protections for weather wizards. Take your unseasonal hurricanes back to San Francisco, weather wizards. SedanChair posted:Yeah just don't expect me to go along with it when they frame themselves as intellectuals. It's kind of depressing how many man-hours have been devoted to stupid, unnecessary, poo poo like the Trinity or the precise nature of Christ or whatever. edit: and no, I'm not saying we'd be on Mars if not for the Middle Ages, that's dumb. I just wish they had spent more time copying plays, histories, and cool poems from antiquity.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:47
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Sharkie posted:edit: and no, I'm not saying we'd be on Mars if not for the Middle Ages, that's dumb. I just wish they had spent more time copying plays, histories, and cool poems from antiquity. what if the plays, histories, and cool poems were about the trinity and the precise nature of Christ?
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Dec 12, 2014 02:54
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Sharkie posted:edit: and no, I'm not saying we'd be on Mars if not for the Middle Ages, that's dumb. I just wish they had spent more time copying plays, histories, and cool poems from antiquity. For a while, the Church was probably the only organization in the western world who did that at all. It's just they also did a bunch of writing on the nature of god bothering as well.
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Dec 12, 2014 02:56
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Periodiko posted:This thread would be a lot simpler if people just realized that accepting a world-view that isn't consistent with material reality can still have a positive effect on the individual person. If you make that claim then you must weigh that positive effect on the individual with the other effects, positive and negative, that the world-view has had on the world at large. I believe you would find the balance of that equation is not on the positive side...
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Dec 12, 2014 04:12
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Being in the world is hard and everyone self medicates with something, whether it's booze or food or jogging or God. Some medications are more harmful to the person than others but you'll never be able to take away someone's thing without first replacing it with something better
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Dec 12, 2014 04:30
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SedanChair posted:Yeah just don't expect me to go along with it when they frame themselves as intellectuals. Well coming up with ever stranger logical constructions to obscure circular reasoning certainly seems like an intellectual pursuit! I think it's actually pretty reasonable to describe theology as an intellectual activity. Intellectuals pursue unreal things in literature, or esoteric mathematics. Why not religion? Bel Shazar posted:If you make that claim then you must weigh that positive effect on the individual with the other effects, positive and negative, that the world-view has had on the world at large. I believe you would find the balance of that equation is not on the positive side... I don't think you do, necessarily. I don't think a cost/benefit analysis of "if religion ever existed vs. never existed" really makes sense, or is even possible.
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Dec 12, 2014 04:33
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Torka posted:Being in the world is hard and everyone self medicates with something, whether it's booze or food or jogging or God. At the very least, neither booze, food, nor jogging requires you to believe in anything that can't be readily demonstrated. The primary issue with religion is that it actively discourages critical thinking as an irrelevant skill, when it's actually literally the most important sill.
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Dec 12, 2014 04:51
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Muscle Tracer posted:At the very least, neither booze, food, nor jogging requires you to believe in anything that can't be readily demonstrated. The primary issue with religion is that it actively discourages critical thinking as an irrelevant skill, when it's actually literally the most important sill. So do a lot of things, in fairness.
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Dec 12, 2014 04:54
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Periodiko posted:I don't think you do, necessarily. I don't think a cost/benefit analysis of "if religion ever existed vs. never existed" really makes sense, or is even possible. It's a fair point that it is likely impossible to truly quantify the total impact of religious belief. I guess I just have faith that it has been a net detriment 
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Dec 12, 2014 04:57
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Muscle Tracer posted:At the very least, neither booze, food, nor jogging requires you to believe in anything that can't be readily demonstrated. The primary issue with religion is that it actively discourages critical thinking as an irrelevant skill, when it's actually literally the most important sill. Sure, the idea was just that people are always going to be extremely resistant to your trying to take away their coping mechanism, whatever it might be, unless you can offer them a better one
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Dec 12, 2014 05:00
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Torka posted:Sure, the idea was just that people are always going to be extremely resistant to your trying to take away their coping mechanism, whatever it might be, unless you can offer them a better one Yeah, for sure. If you spend your childhood thinking a magic man is looking after you, it's mighty hard to change your mind, much less have somebody else change it via yelling.
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Dec 12, 2014 05:03
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Yeah, and to be honest I'm not sure there is a more effective coping mechanism than a heartfelt belief that death isn't real and your ultimate destiny is infinite happiness. I wish I was capable of believing it and I envy those who are, what could be better than getting back that feeling of security you had as a child, before that painful frightening moment when you realised your parents (and by extension all adults) were fallible and didn't really know anything
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Dec 12, 2014 05:09
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Periodiko posted:Well coming up with ever stranger logical constructions to obscure circular reasoning certainly seems like an intellectual pursuit! Formulating abstruse logical constructions on top of something you acknowledge to be fundamentally illogical is what I would call a mystical pursuit, not an intellectual one.
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Dec 12, 2014 05:53
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Torka posted:Yeah, and to be honest I'm not sure there is a more effective coping mechanism than a heartfelt belief that death isn't real and your ultimate destiny is infinite happiness. I wish I was capable of believing it and I envy those who are, what could be better than getting back that feeling of security you had as a child, before that painful frightening moment when you realised your parents (and by extension all adults) were fallible and didn't really know anything I dunno, I can't in good conscience voluntarily go back to that, because it is ultimately an illusion, and unless you remain aware of that, that's all it will ever be. The knowledge that the world doesn't work like that is important if ever we are to get any closer to it actually working like that. I think it'd be nicer if one day we didn't have to face quite so unpleasant a reality.
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Dec 12, 2014 05:56
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OwlFancier posted:I dunno, I can't in good conscience voluntarily go back to that, because it is ultimately an illusion, and unless you remain aware of that, that's all it will ever be. Heck, why would people want to go back to a time when they thought life was infinite and had meaning? It is pretty liberating to know that no matter what you do you will die and your life will have been wholly meaningless.
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Dec 12, 2014 05:58
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Bel Shazar posted:Heck, why would people want to go back to a time when they thought life was infinite and had meaning? It is pretty liberating to know that no matter what you do you will die and your life will have been wholly meaningless. Meaning is arbitrary anyway, so my meaning for my life is just as valid as a religious person's for theirs despite the fact that I won't exist to continue assigning meaning after I die. Besides, an afterlife doesn't give meaning to your mortal life. How could it? What does the 80~ish years on earth matter compared the rest of eternity either licking God's nutsack of partying it up at the most bitchin' party in hell? And religions realize this too, there's a reason that they expressly forbid suicide. -EDIT- So I guess I just don't understand the obsession with meaning after death that so many people have. What will you care, you'll be dead anyway. That's the beauty of it and why it's really not all that frightening. You wanna know what should really terrify you? Alzheimer's. Dementia. Psychosis. Or things like becoming completely paralyzed from head to toe and becoming a waking and aware prisoner in your own body. That stuff is waaaaaaaay worse than just dying. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 06:15
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Who What Now posted:Meaning is arbitrary anyway, so my meaning for my life is just as valid as a religious person's for theirs despite the fact that I won't exist to continue assigning meaning after I die. I generally take the stance that while dying will ultimately either not be something I have to worry about, or it will present a whole slew of new and more pressing concerns other than what I did when I was alive, while I am alive I should try to do things properly. Using death as a justification for indifference or apathy rubs me the wrong way, I don't much mind other people doing it and can see why it's an obvious conclusion but I never much liked it myself, better to act as if what you do when you're alive is of absolute importance, because if death is the end, it literally is everything that will ever be important to you.
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Dec 12, 2014 06:26
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Who What Now posted:So I guess I just don't understand the obsession with meaning after death that so many people have. What will you care, you'll be dead anyway. Reconciling myself to my own nonexistence is fairly easy, that of everyone I've ever loved less so.
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Dec 12, 2014 06:30
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OwlFancier posted:I generally take the stance that while dying will ultimately either not be something I have to worry about, or it will present a whole slew of new and more pressing concerns other than what I did when I was alive, while I am alive I should try to do things properly. I'm not definitely not taking a nihilistic stance here, and I absolutely do believe that lives have meaning. In fact that the earth will be consumed by an expanding sun which will itself eventually burn itself into nothingness just as all stars will do until one day the final one grows dark and the heat death of the universe takes hold of existence only makes our lives more meaningful, not less. There is no forever, and so we really do have to make the most of the precious little time that we do have.
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Dec 12, 2014 06:33
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Cavaradossi posted:God could have created us without free will (He created lots of things without free will). But creatures without free will cannot know their creator. So then do angels have free will? Angels know their creator as far as I can tell, so that would mean angels have free will, right? Plus the fact that one third of them joined Satan, which would imply the ability to choose to side against God. So if angels have free will, how come they don't have to suffer or feel pain and we do? Seems kinda lovely, why didn't God just make us angels?
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Dec 12, 2014 06:34
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Who What Now posted:I'm not definitely not taking a nihilistic stance here, and I absolutely do believe that lives have meaning. In fact that the earth will be consumed by an expanding sun which will itself eventually burn itself into nothingness just as all stars will do until one day the final one grows dark and the heat death of the universe takes hold of existence only makes our lives more meaningful, not less. There is no forever, and so we really do have to make the most of the precious little time that we do have. I am comforted to know that, through religion, I am liberated from the constant pressure to "make the most of my time," and can instead simply relax and enjoy myself, after tending to my duties and obligations. What an existential burden that is! Be sure to reflect in solitude from time to time, but please remember to just go with the flow a bit, people. I don't see how it follows, anyway, that the precious shortness of life necessitates some moral obligation to do anything with it. You can squander it if you like, who's to judge? And who's to judge if, seeing only pain ahead, you decide to end it sooner? And who's to judge if you decide to violate every moral rule in the book because you want to maximize your personal pleasure? My point is only that although pain lies ahead, I would rather have a mental conception that makes life bearable and even enjoyable, while still having a moral grounding, rather than spending my life in existential struggle.
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Dec 12, 2014 06:44
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So if it's just a coping mechanism why pretend you actually know the whims of an all powerful deity and try to convince other people to accept that extremely improbable proposition?
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Dec 12, 2014 06:52
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Kyrie eleison posted:I am comforted to know that, through religion, I am liberated from the constant pressure to "make the most of my time," and can instead simply relax and enjoy myself, after tending to my duties and obligations. What an existential burden that is! Be sure to reflect in solitude from time to time, but please remember to just go with the flow a bit, people. Relaxation can be making the most of your time. Why not? What's more important than happiness? How can that which is unlimited be considered precious, or indeed anything other than utterly disposable? How could that which is limited and coveted not be? Why is a life that ends somehow a life that is unbearable and unenjoyable?
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Dec 12, 2014 07:04
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"I personally prefer a worldview in which it's totally OK that I suck, and there's no reason to ever try to do anything, even though change is well within reach of myself and my peers. Lucky for me I'm so weak-minded that I've shaped my worldview around a long-dead geriatric's demented ravings, which have been perpetuated by those in power for millennia to keep sheep like me penned up and docile "
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Dec 12, 2014 07:08
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Chin posted:So if it's just a coping mechanism why pretend you actually know the whims of an all powerful deity and try to convince other people to accept that extremely improbable proposition? Well the funny thing about belief is that you have to believe it. This is the struggle of Torka, and any doubting Christian -- the inability to put yourself in the "trick bag," so to speak, and convince yourself that up is down and black is white. But of course, that is the perspective of the doubter. From the perspective of the faithful, such as myself -- I like to think I have worked through all my doubts due to my period of atheism -- not believing in the actual realness of God, or in the resurrection of Christ, is totally nonsensical and ridiculous, and actually sort of adolescent. It's essentially resigning yourself to a miserable reality in which these things aren't true, embracing misery and depression, due to psychological hangups about God that haven't been worked out. And believing in God is usually refused, ironically, on moral grounds! Torka doesn't have that objection, he recognizes there is no moral imperative to disbelieve in God (the idea that there is is absurd). He just can't bring himself to believe. This is strange for me, as I've had an affinity for God throughout my life, perhaps due to having positive spiritual experiences with Him in childhood. It was natural for me to connect to Him and to pray, to feel His presence, and so on. My enthusiasm was even described as irregularly high. So I actually wonder if it is important that a child be raised in religion in order to experience it later in life. But, non-Christian people are converted, so that can't be strictly the case. Perhaps it just requires a base spiritualism... something innate. I'm not sure. It's hard for me to believe Torka completely lacks a spiritual side, but he seems to believe he does. Muscle Tracer posted:Relaxation can be making the most of your time. Why not? What's more important than happiness? "Making the most" implies an obligation, and activity, not relaxation. Very soon, your life will be described as precious in the past tense. Not mine. It is unbearable because everything is seen as futile and pointless due to the inevitable failure awaiting us all. I don't have the sort of mind that allows me to ignore all of that. To me, that is a sort of religious belief -- the idea that our impending death can be ignored in its overarching importance in our lives.
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Dec 12, 2014 07:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:Torka doesn't have that objection, he recognizes there is no moral imperative to disbelieve in God (the idea that there is is absurd). He just can't bring himself to believe. It's possible. I grew up in a religious vacuum with parents who never really spoke with me about the issue either way, and in a secular country with no noticeable religious presence in public schooling, so I was atheist by default rather than as the result of an active decision. It's not that I believe I don't have a spiritual side, in fact I would characterise myself as having intense spiritual needs, it's just that I can't see any way to satisfy them in reality as is without dishonesty. Every way I observe other people try to seems either totally subjective ("I create my own meaning") and therefore frivolous, or beautiful and satisfying but implausible (Christianity). It's harder for me to empathise with fellow atheists who think atheism is good news than with believers. I yearn for it to be true; the idea of a thoughtful atheist who has never wept for the nonexistence of God is very difficult for me to understand.
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Dec 12, 2014 07:23
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Torka posted:It's not that I believe I don't have a spiritual side, in fact I would characterise myself as having intense spiritual needs, it's just that I can't see any way to satisfy them in reality as is without dishonesty. Every way I observe other people try to seems either totally subjective ("I create my own meaning") and therefore frivolous, or beautiful and satisfying but implausible (Christianity). Kyrie eleison posted:I am comforted to know that, through religion, I am liberated from the constant pressure to "make the most of my time," and can instead simply relax and enjoy myself, after tending to my duties and obligations. What an existential burden that is! Be sure to reflect in solitude from time to time, but please remember to just go with the flow a bit, people. I mean hell, we had a couple of near misses with nuclear war in the Cold War, and in each case, it was the decision of avowed atheists from the Soviet state educational system - hardly a bastion of catechization - that, nah, I'm not willing to light this candle. I suppose you can certainly say Communists have killed many people, but so have avowedly Christian states, avowedly Muslim states, avowedly Buddhist states...
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Dec 12, 2014 07:39
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i guess my question, Kyrie, is just why should i care about any of this stuff?
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Dec 12, 2014 07:39
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Personally, the reason I don't just go out and murder everyone or be an rear end in a top hat all the time is because that would be a bad and mean thing to do, not because of an invisible sky fairy. Perhaps you have heard of the Golden Rule, OP?
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Dec 12, 2014 07:51
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Torka posted:It's possible. I grew up in a religious vacuum with parents who never really spoke with me about the issue either way, and in a secular country with no noticeable religious presence in public schooling, so I was atheist by default rather than as the result of an active decision. The stereotypical miserable atheist that kyrie says he experienced, and that you say atheists must experience, is an incomplete atheism, because it hasn't actually accepted the way the world is. It's the 'depression' stage in the 5 stage model of loss. To not get past that stage, accept reality for how it really is and not how you want it to be, is to fail to grow a backbone. You retreat back to what is comfortable, instead of what is real. Religious belief founded on wishful thinking is immaturity, plain and simple. rudatron fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 07:52
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Nessus posted:Why do you have this strange idea that atheists will necessarily go and be murderous maniacs? I mean, I can't say "no atheist will be a murderous maniac," that would be ridiculous, but it would seem that evidence suggests that atheism does not correlate with being a threat to social order. At least, in ways other than "implicitly threatening the Church hierarchy, I suppose." I didn't say they will necessarily be murderous. I described before that the mindset of an amoral person is sociopathic. Sociopathy is when you will break any moral rule so long as it creates a better outcome for yourself. An educated sociopath can be quite in line with the rules of social power. The reason you don't murder people is because it would result in negative consequences for you. However, if you can get away with something secretly, and you suspect you can get away with it, there's no reason for you not to. Similarly, if you are in a position of power, you can get away with a lot of evil without being challenged. Whereas, a Christian is required to consult with God, who sees all, on all moral questions. Barent posted:Personally, the reason I don't just go out and murder everyone or be an rear end in a top hat all the time is because that would be a bad and mean thing to do, not because of an invisible sky fairy. Perhaps you have heard of the Golden Rule, OP? The Golden Rule is literally the words of Jesus Christ. And I don't believe you have any reason to follow it without God. rudatron posted:You want a objective meaning to be true. Why? Why does it have to exist? You know it cannot exist, the issue is that you want one. But you don't need an objective meaning to give your own life and actions meaning. An objective meaning, even if it were to exist, isn't some 'super-meaning' that is automatically better than subjective meaning - that belief is itself subjective. You can't escape subjectivity, because meaning makes no sense outside of it. Complete atheism is being in a grave.
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Dec 12, 2014 08:09
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rudatron posted:You want a objective meaning to be true. Why? Why does it have to exist? You know it cannot exist. But you don't need an objective meaning to give your own life and actions meaning. An objective meaning, even if it were to exist, isn't some 'super-meaning' that is automatically better than subjective meaning - that belief is itself subjective. You can't escape subjectivity. In fact, meaning makes no sense outside of it. I can't really agree that to be "complete" atheism has to include being happy that atheism is true or preferring that it be true. That's called anti-theism.
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Dec 12, 2014 08:22
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Kyrie eleison posted:However, if you can get away with something secretly, and you suspect you can get away with it, there's no reason for you not to. Similarly, if you are in a position of power, you can get away with a lot of evil without being challenged. Whereas, a Christian is required to consult with God, who sees all, on all moral questions. Plenty of Christians abuse their power, do bad things if they think they can get away with it. Maybe some of them do it because while they know it's wrong, they can go to Confession and receive absolution for their sins.
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Dec 12, 2014 08:29
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Torka posted:I can't really agree that to be "complete" atheism has to include being happy that atheism is true or preferring that it be true. That's called anti-theism. rudatron fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 08:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:The reason you don't murder people is because it would result in negative consequences for you. Even if murder was completely legal most people, even atheists, would still not murder other people.
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Dec 12, 2014 08:31
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Kyrie eleison posted:The Golden Rule is literally the words of Jesus Christ. And I don't believe you have any reason to follow it without God. What if I think civilisation is a worthwhile thing? What if I hope that future generations will achieve things that I couldn't experience in my lifetime, but the application of the 'golden rule', or any moral code, brings us a little closer? I have a life infinitely better than those born a thousand years ago. I have access to medicine not available to the richest, most powerful people living one hundred years ago - or fifty years ago for that matter. Paying it forward is enough purpose - maybe the only purpose - that makes any sense. "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”
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Dec 12, 2014 08:33
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rudatron posted:You're still not getting it. The word I used was 'acceptance'. It's accepting that your preferences have no metaphysical or truth value outside of your own head. Clearly I'd agree with that since I don't believe despite wishing it was true. I guess that part was directed at Kyrie, my apologies.
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Dec 12, 2014 08:34
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