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Seaside Loafer posted:e: this reply to nothing to seehere Streaming and sets in no way are equilivalent to having an entire school of selective students, for reasons of motivation. When you have an entire school of good student, the ones who would be troublemakers and slackers get peer pressured into working hard. Even in top sets in schools, this is not the case. Furthermore, top sets at bad schools still have the same discipline and engagement problems as the rest of the school.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:14
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nothing to seehere posted:Streaming and sets in no way are equilivalent to having an entire school of selective students, for reasons of motivation. When you have an entire school of good student, the ones who would be troublemakers and slackers get peer pressured into working hard. Even in top sets in schools, this is not the case. Furthermore, top sets at bad schools still have the same discipline and engagement problems as the rest of the school. e: also, you are talking about little children here, things like motivation etc doesnt in come into it at this point, most them havent been kissed yet know what mean? And im not terribly keen on 'troublemakers and slackers' getting peer pressured. If this is a troll, good game, if not then we disagree. e2: sorry for lateness of this edit, this peer pressure thing you speak of throws up all sorts of nastyness in my mind, i guess im just one of those be nice and understanding to children instead of beating them and indoctrinating them type people Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 10:17
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The low-level discipline thing is what worries me most about British schools. I grew up in Hong Kong and went to a British school there. I couldn't believe what people got away with when we moved to the UK. I had a physics class in which almost everyone used to drum on their desks the instant the teacher turned his back to them to write something on the board, then stopped and faked innocence whenever he turned around. Another class made a point of singing "happy birthday" to their teacher at least a couple of times a week. And a bunch of other stuff that sounds trivial when you write it down but which basically had the effect of turning every lesson into a battle between kids and teachers. I only passed my A levels cos I did a lot of work at home to make up for the fact that we learned gently caress-all nothing in the lessons. And it wasn't a "bad" school, either, nor were the kids any dumber than any others. The teachers just absolutely couldn't control them. I was astonished by it.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:22
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Zephro posted:The low-level discipline thing is what worries me most about British schools. I grew up in Hong Kong and went to a British school there. I couldn't believe what people got away with when we moved to the UK. I had a physics class in which almost everyone used to drum on their desks the instant the teacher turned his back to them to write something on the board, then stopped and faked innocence whenever he turned around. Another class made a point of singing "happy birthday" to their teacher at least a couple of times a week. And a bunch of other stuff that sounds trivial when you write it down but which basically had the effect of turning every lesson into a battle between kids and teachers. I only passed my A levels cos I did a lot of work at home to make up for the fact that we learned gently caress-all nothing in the lessons. And it wasn't a "bad" school, either, nor were the kids any dumber than any others. The teachers just absolutely couldn't control them. I was astonished by it. What do you think your school in HK did differently or was it more of a cultural thing among pupils?
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Dec 12, 2014 10:27
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1/4 Breastfeeding 1/2 Racist (someone in the audience) 4/6 Traffic 4/5 Hypocrite Evens Romanians Evens Scaremongering 6/4 Long Term Economic Plan 2/1 Metropolitan Elite (almost - Russell said Economic Elite) 5/2 Common Sense 3/1 I Love Russell 4/1 Hard working families 4/1 Britain is Full (almost - audience asked if Britain was overcrowded) 4/1 Burka 5/1 Heroin addict 5/1 Complete Madness 5/1 You're Having A Laugh 6/1 Utter Lunacy 8/1 I Love Nigel 8/1 Cloud Cuckoo Land 8/1 Trumpton 10/1 Fantasy Island 10/1 Socialist Paradise 12/1 Magic Money Tree 16/1 My New Book 16/1 Parklife 16/1 Capitalist Paradigm A terrible showing.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:31
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KKKlean Energy posted:1/4 Breastfeeding And what does this recipe make?
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Dec 12, 2014 10:33
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ultrabindu posted:And what does this recipe make? The UK.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:38
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ultrabindu posted:And what does this recipe make? A parliament, 650 servings.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:39
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Seaside Loafer posted:I guess I just plain dont agree with you on principle. You are arguing for the 'elite' to be separated from the plebs to have special training. This goes against everything I believe in. I believe this because, I went to the "best" comprehensive in my city for first two years of secondary, and was is in all the top sets, and did not receive anywhere near the level of education to engage me, and I became complacent and slept through lessons. Then I luckily was able to be moved to a selective private school, because my mum was rich enough, and I received a much better education, where I was much more engaged and challenged. I believe that this type of education should be open to all able enough, not just those who are lucky enough to be born into families that can afford it. Zephro posted:The low-level discipline thing is what worries me most about British schools. I grew up in Hong Kong and went to a British school there. I couldn't believe what people got away with when we moved to the UK. I had a physics class in which almost everyone used to drum on their desks the instant the teacher turned his back to them to write something on the board, then stopped and faked innocence whenever he turned around. Another class made a point of singing "happy birthday" to their teacher at least a couple of times a week. And a bunch of other stuff that sounds trivial when you write it down but which basically had the effect of turning every lesson into a battle between kids and teachers. I only passed my A levels cos I did a lot of work at home to make up for the fact that we learned gently caress-all nothing in the lessons. And it wasn't a "bad" school, either, nor were the kids any dumber than any others. The teachers just absolutely couldn't control them. I was astonished by it. I think this is a more general thing in the UK. Year 9, selective private school, top set maths, so the best behaved class you are likely to get, and we (the entire 20 person class) still taunted a trainee teacher by moving our desks slightly to the side every time she turned around until we were packed up against the wall. Nothingtoseehere fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 10:50
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nothing to seehere posted:I think this is a more general thing in the UK. Year 9, top set maths, so the best behaved class you are likely to get, and we still taunted a trainee teacher by moving our desks slightly to the side every time she turned around until we were packed up against the wall. That's brilliant.
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Dec 12, 2014 10:53
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nothing to seehere posted:Streaming and sets in no way are equilivalent to having an entire school of selective students, for reasons of motivation. When you have an entire school of good student, the ones who would be troublemakers and slackers get peer pressured into working hard. Even in top sets in schools, this is not the case. Furthermore, top sets at bad schools still have the same discipline and engagement problems as the rest of the school. Maybe we didn't have the sufficient critical mass of good students? *really weird seeing people talk about them in the past tense, round me they're pretty much just a fact of life XMNN fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 11:04
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It's worth noting in response to the "they'll only be built in the suburbs" argument, that Farage did specifically address postcode issues. His argument is that the postcode purchasing of grammar school places is a result of tremendous under-supply - building a poo poo ton of grammar schools across the country would negate this. I agree wholeheartedly on the comments above about selection versus streaming - I passed through a few schools during my childhood and the atmosphere in a selective school is just different. It's difficult to put into words, but 95% of the pupils start with some idea of boundaries and an innate respect of authority which helps keep things running smoothly. I think we should ask ourselves some difficult questions. Is the current system, where only the super rich can afford the best quality education actually superior to one where the middle-classes and some undefined portion of the working class got to experience it for free? The benefits may not have extended to the bottom of the working class, but that's still an awful lot of children given opportunities that are now denied to them. The Guardian article linked above makes it clear that private school bursaries are woefully inadequate to providing this access. I remember a documentary harking back to the 70s and 80s when front benches in parliament were filled with grammar school pupils. Now we're back to public school MPs and social mobility is declining and I'm not sure it's an improvement. Sometimes there's a tendency to discuss social mobility focusing only on the very poorest in society. This doesn't recognise that social mobility for the non-rich in general might also be a desirable goal for society (even if it's clearly incomplete and shouldn't be the end goal). Prince John fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 11:12
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So grammar schools are built everywhere, just as comprehensives were and then the same pattern of the schools in staunchly middle class areas getting the most support and funding occurs and parents who can afford to move to the areas with the best grammar schools do so and the same problem occurs. It is awfully noble of you Prince John to be a Serious Person and make the tough decision to support a policy most likely to benefit upper middle class people such as yourself though. Those at the bottom of society probably wouldn't appreciate it anyway, what with their lack of discipline and respect for authority anyway.
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Dec 12, 2014 11:44
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Your GCE/GCSEs matter if you're at an international school in Hong Kong in a way that it doesn't in a local school - at an international school, if you want to keep walking in that child-of-the-global-class crowd, you do need to pick up those As. It'll be easy for you to do so, you'll get all the dedicated attention your international school can manage, but you still have to go through the motions. Certainly there are kids who will be rich enough to donate their way through university before loving off to their parent's company, but a kid of a middle-tier expat won't be in that class. You still need to get your 2:1 at a decent place, work for a bit at an international institution. Nonetheless there are definitely independent schools that specialize far more than mere entry tests - if you're going to United World Colleges, for instance, you (or your parents) are definitely aiming to be part of a particular crowd (and your specific choice of UWC campus will reflect that). In the UK, some are overtly for the elite, academic excellence or not (Eton). Some independents are overtly finishing schools for students aiming for Oxbridge or Ivies and won't hesitate to expel troublemakers, even very rich ones (King's). ronya fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 11:46
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Heisenberg1276 posted:Several people from this thread participated in my news discussion sentiment study a few threads back. It was anonymous so I don't know who exactly, but thank you if you did. If you're interested in how your data is being used there's some very naive early results at http://research.jscott.me/ Spangly A posted:I'll get that done after my beard trim, interested in your work too! Thank you very much. If anyone else is interested, the experiment will still be up until Sunday. The next round will run around the general election debates in April - which will be a reddit-like social news discussion with a twist (that will hopefully make it more representative). A few people have indicated interest, if you'd like to be involved send me a PM or email me at js3g10@soton.ac.uk.
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Dec 12, 2014 12:08
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ReV VAdAUL posted:It is awfully noble of you Prince John to be a Serious Person and make the tough decision to support a policy most likely to benefit upper middle class people such as yourself though. Those at the bottom of society probably wouldn't appreciate it anyway, what with their lack of discipline and respect for authority anyway. That's slightly unfair - it was an observation about my experience in selective and non-selective environments which you're deliberately conflating to be an attack on the poor. A government has to decide how to best to make its workforce internationally competitive. I'm just suggesting that a school system only benefiting the toffs and disadvantaging the best pupils from all other classes might be worse than one that historically benefited a larger section of the population. That's it - I'm not saying it's fair, or that it's right, just that it might be better than the current mess. As for my class, my parents think of themselves as working class (both started their careers in manual jobs, neither went to university). I don't know at what point you leave your parent's class, but sorry for being middle class I guess? You must be apoplectic every time someone from the upper classes expresses an opinion about education.
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Dec 12, 2014 12:41
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Prince John posted:I remember a documentary harking back to the 70s and 80s when front benches in parliament were filled with grammar school pupils. Now we're back to public school MPs and social mobility is declining and I'm not sure it's an improvement. That's odd because the proportion of privately educated MPs today is substantially lower than it was in the 70s and 80s. http://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/1MPs_educational_backgrounds_2010_A.pdf  While there has been an increase in the number of privately educated MPs since 1997, this isn't so much a tragic consequence of the decline of the grammar school so much as a consequence of electing more Tories: 
LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 12:56
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LemonDrizzle posted:That's odd because the proportion of privately educated MPs today is substantially lower than it was in the 70s and 80s. Perfect, I'd been trying to google a proper study without success. Thanks - I will digest this evening.
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Dec 12, 2014 13:16
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nothing to seehere posted:I think this is a more general thing in the UK. Year 9, top set maths, so the best behaved class you are likely to get, and we still taunted a trainee teacher by moving our desks slightly to the side every time she turned around until we were packed up against the wall. Thats great.
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Dec 12, 2014 13:27
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ReV VAdAUL posted:What do you think your school in HK did differently or was it more of a cultural thing among pupils? quote:I think this is a more general thing in the UK. Year 9, top set maths, so the best behaved class you are likely to get, and we still taunted a trainee teacher by moving our desks slightly to the side every time she turned around until we were packed up against the wall.
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Dec 12, 2014 13:50
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nothing to seehere posted:I think this is a more general thing in the UK. Year 9, top set maths, so the best behaved class you are likely to get, and we still taunted a trainee teacher by moving our desks slightly to the side every time she turned around until we were packed up against the wall. We did this in Switzerland all the time as well, so it's not just a UK thing.
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Dec 12, 2014 13:55
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Prince John posted:That's slightly unfair - it was an observation about my experience in selective and non-selective environments which you're deliberately conflating to be an attack on the poor. I voice dissent against anyone who asserts gently caress you got mine opinions or blatantly dog whistling the less fortunate. It's cute you think your blandly selfish assertions make me angry though. We face a growing crisis of automation destroying an increasing numbers of low skill jobs and an existing crisis of low social mobility. Thus we have to address the quality of education the poorest in society receive so that at the best minimum they can get jobs and maintain demand within the economy. It won't help anyone if middle class kids get an even better education when it causes a recession that denies them jobs too. Not to mention an entrenched underclass creates all sorts of other problems for the whole of society that will, alas, dent our international competitiveness. Heck class lines in general clarifying leads to a more conservative and less innovative society, writing off the poorest benefits no one.
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Dec 12, 2014 13:58
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KKKlean Energy posted:1/4 Breastfeeding Brand said breastfeeding at one point too iirc
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Dec 12, 2014 14:15
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Ludicro posted:We were however seen as posh by the comprehensive schoolkids in the area and interactions with them were usually very violent. I went to the local grammar school and the only rivalry we had - especially a violent one - was with the private school literally across the road. Mind you this could have been due to the fact that all the kids at local comprehensives knew they'd suspended if not expelled just for being seen at a fight in uniform, whereas for us it was just thought of as boys under pressure working off steam.
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Dec 12, 2014 14:25
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I'm not sure why people are arguing for/against grammar schools when the entire style of schooling in Britain is an outdated relic from the era of the Empire.
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Dec 12, 2014 14:28
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As someone who grew up in Northern Ireland I went to a grammar school, I always find it weird when people talk about what a theoretical education system were grammar schools are revived considering the central place they play in the NI system. The NI split between selective/non-selective schools is about 40/60 and selective schools are by no means solely middle class. If you want to see the relative virtues of a grammar school centric system you can just have a look at NI's performance comparative to the rest of the UK in exam results (NI usually edges out England and Wales). But then again this is the NI school system which is designed to keep The Wrong Sort away from your impressionable wains.
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Dec 12, 2014 14:40
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kustomkarkommando posted:If you want to see the relative virtues of a grammar school centric system you can just have a look at NI's performance comparative to the rest of the UK in exam results (NI usually edges out England and Wales).
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Dec 12, 2014 14:54
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Dec 12, 2014 14:57
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This is a good protest 
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Dec 12, 2014 15:00
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All those photographers are breaking the law, shameful stuff
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Dec 12, 2014 15:17
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LemonDrizzle posted:This doesn't really tell you much of anything though, unless you believe that (non)-selectivity is the sole determinant of school quality or educational performance. Finland regularly outperforms most European countries in educational rankings despite having a completely non-selective comprehensive system, so if it's test results we're interested in, presumably we should adopt their model. I'm not exactly praising the NI model and I personally think it requires substantial reform. I just meant to say that we have a body of comparable data that is directly relevant to any discussion about expanding selective schooling in the UK that I rarely see referenced; pass-rates/grade achievement of course shouldn't be used as the sole judge of the quality of a system. If anything NI's grammar school system has been central in maintaining segregated education and demonstrates some of the downsides of expanding grammar schools rather nicely.
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Dec 12, 2014 15:29
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ReV VAdAUL posted:If Grammar schools were brought back they'd only be placed in nice suburban areas anyway. I went to a grammar school next to one of the biggest council estates in the country. Which I lived in. I'm not sure if I can hold an objective opinion of grammar schools because I personally benefitted tremendously from it but I had to pass an exam to get in (although it was free). Mr Cuddles fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 15:47
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StoneOfShame posted:Holy poo poo I am a bad UKMT poster I have been defending Portillo. To save some face I have been thinking about joining the CPGB -(ML) as they are pretty active in Birmingham and do a lot of good campaigns, the only problem is they refuse to criticise any Communist regime so they are big supporters of the likes of lovely places like North Korea, what is the correct way to approach such a thing. I doubt an ML party would support either of those things.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:10
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Guavanaut posted:DPRK removed all references to Communism from their constitution. Really? I thought they still pretended really hard to be communist, even decrying China as following a false communism, etc etc. I'd love to read more about the actual philosophy of the NK leadership if you know any good reading.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:21
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Seaside Loafer posted:I guess I just plain dont agree with you on principle. You are arguing for the 'elite' to be separated from the plebs to have special training. This goes against everything I believe in. When I talk about peer pressure, I'm more talking about the willingness and acceptability of working, in that doing work and doing well are more accepting and actively avoided work is more looked down on. Whether this is because it was private or selective I can't say however.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:25
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KKKlean Energy posted:Really? I thought they still pretended really hard to be communist, even decrying China as following a false communism, etc etc. I'd love to read more about the actual philosophy of the NK leadership if you know any good reading. http://web.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal3/korea1.pdf
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Dec 12, 2014 16:29
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KKKlean Energy posted:Really? I thought they still pretended really hard to be communist, even decrying China as following a false communism, etc etc. I'd love to read more about the actual philosophy of the NK leadership if you know any good reading. The broad principle is known as Juche, which may or may not be communist still depending on how you read it but definitely rejects basic principles of Marxism-Leninism. Broadly it's about 'self-reliance', which is a bit strange for a country dependent on handouts.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:37
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KKKlean Energy posted:Really? I thought they still pretended really hard to be communist, even decrying China as following a false communism, etc etc. I'd love to read more about the actual philosophy of the NK leadership if you know any good reading. I'm not sure about their actual philosophy in practice, as their internal affairs are very secretive. Most of the books about it, like Under the 'Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader' or 'This is Paradise!' draw from references by those who have permanently exited. 'On the Juche Idea' is the definitive book about the Juche ideology prior to divorce from Communism, but not much beyond that.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:44
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mfcrocker posted:I'm not sure why people are arguing for/against grammar schools when the entire style of schooling in Britain is an outdated relic from the era of the Empire. It's the principle innit? We've got a stressed and underfunded school system, with all kinds of bureaucratic problems and negativity around teaching as a profession, and some people's answer is to build more special snowflake schools to act as lifeboats for a select few. Sure that'll leave the normal schools to deal with everyone who's harder to educate, and just exacerbate all the problems as a result, but they're the unworthies anyway - they don't need a good education, it's not like they'll do anything important... Meanwhile we have record numbers of people going to university, but we also have graduates going straight into a bright career of shelf stacking (if they're lucky), so it's almost as if the problem is a lack of general opportunity in society... 
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Dec 12, 2014 16:52
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maybe having 50% of school leavers going to university was a bad idea.
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Dec 12, 2014 17:28
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