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Dec 13, 2014 15:13
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Party Plane Jones posted:Expecting anything to happen is pretty foolish. Hell, the CIA (and the Australian Army's Vietnamese unit) tortured 40,000 people to death in Vietnam during the war and you don't see anybody giving two shits about that. By comparison they treated the prisoners under the Bush program with kid gloves. To the best of our knowledge.
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Dec 13, 2014 15:30
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I guarantee you that more people died during that program, if we ever hear of it that's another story.
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Dec 13, 2014 15:34
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Reagan, Jackson, Nixon, Bush II, Buchanan, A. Johnson, Tyler, Fillmore, Pierce and the comedy option of Harrison 
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Dec 13, 2014 15:34
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DarkCrawler posted:Reagan, Jackson, Nixon, Bush II, Buchanan, A. Johnson, Tyler, Fillmore, Pierce and the comedy option of Harrison Harrison jr did invade Hawaii after Americans forced an uprising so that's probably on there (though Cleveland actually annexed it iirc).
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Dec 13, 2014 15:35
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Accretionist posted:Are any of you familiar with the CIA's last 40 years? Does this represent them getting worse or going rogue or what? I don't have the greatest sense of context here. It's kind of like a Sine curve. They go out of control, then get reigned in, then go out of control again.
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Dec 13, 2014 17:42
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DarkCrawler posted:He's actually not though. I could easily name like 10 American presidents who are worse by almost any metric. He's pretty average. People think he's awful because they had absurd expectations and undervalue the real good he's accomplished and over value drones and not jailing Bush officials
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Dec 13, 2014 18:51
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Rygar201 posted:People think he's awful because they had absurd expectations and undervalue the real good he's accomplished and over value drones and not jailing Bush officials I don't even care about all that, it's the fact that previous American presidents (including the one right before) have set the bar so high in regards of being horrible that calling Obama "loving awful" doesn't make any sense. He didn't send a bunch of people on a death march, sell guns to an enemy so he can fund literal death squads, start a conflict that killed thousands of Americans on a false pretenses or actively help spiral the country into a civil war. There is nothing that really sets him apart from the rank and file general pee pee doo doo bad things all American presidents do by the virtue of heading a country as morally bankrupt as US has been for the most part of its history. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 13, 2014 |
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Dec 13, 2014 19:27
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I mean, he continued doing the things that Bush II added to the list of American presidential crimes, but Obama is just the second of many to do them.
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Dec 13, 2014 19:30
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Calling Obama one of the worst is an overstatement. You would also have to clarify if you mean "worst" morally or "worst" as being totally inefficient. President Polk was certainly pretty bad morally, but kind of "efficient". I would argue that there is no shortage of presidents that are worse morally, or worse efficiency wise, or both.
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Dec 13, 2014 19:36
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Has anyone here who has gotten in debates/arguments about these acts of torture successfully persuaded anyone that they (the acts of torture) are an abomination? I've gotten in a couple on a different forum and seen many, many more, and it's making me depressed and disgusted seeing people defend this poo poo so steadfastly.
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Dec 13, 2014 19:47
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:Has anyone here who has gotten in debates/arguments about these acts of torture successfully persuaded anyone that they (the acts of torture) are an abomination? I've gotten in a couple on a different forum and seen many, many more, and it's making me depressed and disgusted seeing people defend this poo poo so steadfastly. When did the transition happen for so many people to start thinking like that? I vaguely remember a time when torture was something bad people did. Obviously that attitude changed somewhere between 9/11 and the end of the Bush Administration, but when the first reports of torture came out were people outraged about them? I guess it was split between the people who said "support the President no matter what" and the other 50% of the country.
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Dec 13, 2014 19:53
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Chamale posted:When did the transition happen for so many people to start thinking like that? I vaguely remember a time when torture was something bad people did. Obviously that attitude changed somewhere between 9/11 and the end of the Bush Administration, but when the first reports of torture came out were people outraged about them? I guess it was split between the people who said "support the President no matter what" and the other 50% of the country. Fox news was part of it and Team Republican Is My Team Right Or Wrong is part of it and let's sock it to the browns is the rest.
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Dec 13, 2014 19:55
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Mightypeon posted:There was iirc only one or 2 cases where getting shot for refusing that kind of order happened, and these are contentious. Sometimes I think mostly what happened is along the lines of something posted in the Cops makin me lol thread. If I refuse orders or cause waves in any way it will reflect badly on me and I could get me passed over for promotion and so on. So a few dozen Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals/etc aren't worth taking food off my kids plates.
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Dec 13, 2014 20:23
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Chamale posted:When did the transition happen for so many people to start thinking like that? I vaguely remember a time when torture was something bad people did. Obviously that attitude changed somewhere between 9/11 and the end of the Bush Administration, but when the first reports of torture came out were people outraged about them? I guess it was split between the people who said "support the President no matter what" and the other 50% of the country. From what I've read, it seems like a lot of people simply declared 9/11 to be The Worst Thing That Ever Happened Ever, so anyone who had anything to do with that gets downgraded to 'subhuman' status. Lots of ticking time bomb scenarios are then brought up. Add to that many years of reflexive disdain for whining liberal pansies who aren't Real Men, who are now attacking the well-dressed, hard-boiled men of the CIA who go to work every day to defend our country. So much of this is driven by emotion rather than logic, it's Dirty Harry writ large. No point engaging with anyone who isn't on the fence, and even then you could be dealing with Calm Down, The Truth Is Somewhere In The Middle.
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Dec 13, 2014 20:34
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Chamale posted:When did the transition happen for so many people to start thinking like that? I vaguely remember a time when torture was something bad people did. Obviously that attitude changed somewhere between 9/11 and the end of the Bush Administration, but when the first reports of torture came out were people outraged about them? I guess it was split between the people who said "support the President no matter what" and the other 50% of the country.   Approval of torture has been shockingly high ever since 9/11 but it crossed into a majority right between the Bush and Obama administrations for some reason. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Fox news was part of it and Team Republican Is My Team Right Or Wrong is part of it and let's sock it to the browns is the rest.  Apparently most Republicans (and way too many Democrats) are perfectly fine with torture methods that don't involve assplay. It's scary how practically every issue nowadays, up to and including crimes against humanity, are sharply divided along party lines.
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Dec 13, 2014 20:50
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When Greenwald first started making the argument that Obama was normalizing torture and war among liberals, I was pretty skeptical of it. It was probably just me getting defensive about my group identity; but the numbers don't lie. loving hell.
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Dec 13, 2014 20:58
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Flip Yr Wig posted:When Greenwald first started making the argument that Obama was normalizing torture and war among liberals, I was pretty skeptical of it. It was probably just me getting defensive about my group identity; but the numbers don't lie. loving hell. The willingness among liberals to let Obama off for the same things they railed against Bush over was a big part of what pushed me away from the party.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:18
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Flip Yr Wig posted:When Greenwald first started making the argument that Obama was normalizing torture and war among liberals, I was pretty skeptical of it. It was probably just me getting defensive about my group identity; but the numbers don't lie. loving hell. Greenwald says a lot of things. Like how the Obama administration is TOTALLY gearing up for war with Iran, annnnyyyyy day now.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:26
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Mooseontheloose posted:Greenwald says a lot of things. Like how the Obama administration is TOTALLY gearing up for war with Iran, annnnyyyyy day now. When did he say that?
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Dec 13, 2014 21:28
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MariusLecter posted:Sometimes I think mostly what happened is along the lines of something posted in the Cops makin me lol thread. It's much much worse morally though. If you kill or torture someone to save your own life then that's pretty bad but you can empathize, but doing it to benefit your career, not even like "I'll be out of a job and then how will I take care of my family" but straight up "it'll be better for me if I do this" is thoroughly repugnant. Even so it was basically decided to let them get away with it and go after just the people doing the ordering. 70 years later we can't even have that.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:28
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FuriousxGeorge posted:When did he say that? http://www.salon.com/2012/07/27/most_likely_to_attack_iran/ http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/28/glenn_greenwald_is_obama_fulfilling_the http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/02/iran-nukes-deterrence
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Dec 13, 2014 21:33
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Legitimate criticism of Obama embracing hawkish journalists to boost his tough foreign policy credentials. This doesn't seem to be a full transcript, but the part we can read is just about the Project for a New American Century, which is not a friend of the Obama administration, despite Obama's hawkishness. Pointing out that Iran has every reason to be highly defensive about the US, given how we positioned ourselves geostrategically over the past 13 years is not the same as saying Obama wants to initiate war with Iran.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:40
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^ Yeah, that. Only time I recall someone credible claiming the US was about to attack Iran was Sy Hersh during the Bush years.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:45
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Flip Yr Wig posted:Legitimate criticism of Obama embracing hawkish journalists to boost his tough foreign policy credentials. Essentially, all of those articles Greenwald is saying that Obama is making the case for war in Iran and regime change in Iran. However, this is a bit tagential in the torture report thread. My point is that Greenwald loves to blame Obama on a lot of things and my guess is those numbers on Democrats who are not liberals.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:45
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FuriousxGeorge posted:^ Yeah, that.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:53
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poo poo, I'll be the first to say that in many ways the Obama administration has had the healthiest approach to Iran since the revolution, but he still deserves to be called out when he encourages warmongers or approves of covert attacks. Whether it's because he is another embodiment of Washington Consensus foreign policy or he's just covering his right flank is kinda irrelevant; those things need to be criticized, and I admire Greenwald for so prominently calling Obama out in liberal venues.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:57
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Okay, sure, Obama isn't the worst president the US has had brcause you guys have a colourful history of maniacs. To me though, he lends legitimacy to hawkishness and lawlessness that the senile movie star and moron cowboy never did. At least Republicans are honest, Democrats seem to be a hugely lovely party. Willing to support torture if they can avoid seeming "soft".
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Dec 13, 2014 22:26
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nopantsjack posted:
Republicans were and are denying that this was even torture.
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Dec 13, 2014 22:30
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Andrew Jackson was also an honest man.
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Dec 13, 2014 22:39
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computer parts posted:Republicans were and are denying that this was even torture. Yeah, no poo poo. They're mental and straight up about it. The democrats know its torture and still won't prosecute and I assume there are a few who support it too.
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Dec 13, 2014 22:43
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nopantsjack posted:Yeah, no poo poo. They're mental and straight up about it. The democrats know its torture and still won't prosecute and I assume there are a few who support it too. Oh, so you mean honest as "not honest at all".
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Dec 13, 2014 22:43
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nopantsjack posted:Yeah, no poo poo. They're mental and straight up about it. The democrats know its torture and still won't prosecute and I assume there are a few who support it too. This has nothing to do about honesty because apparently Republicans attempted to cover this up same as Democrats. Nodody likes this poo poo, unless you get a hate boner from people you've never met suffering. It has to do with reaction, and we can agree the major parties are being supremely poo poo about this. GOP's not honest at all about this if we're to address this claim you've made. Neither party would attempt prosecutions. We'd turn a country that did these acts on Americans into a smoldering ruin though, we do have a history of reprisals.
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Dec 13, 2014 22:46
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This morning before coming in to work I had some spare time to watch some news, hoping for good news about the CRomnibus (even though I know better... Obama/Reid/Dems "handing back the keys" after all that posturing before) and apparently the line of attack now is, "Pelosi et al. knew all about the "EITs" (we quickly jumped away from torture, landed on Enhance Interrogation Techniques for a day or two, now it's just 'EITs,' sounds like nothing bad at all) so the whole torture report is hypocrisy and something else that I don't really understand because they don't quite come right out and say it." A lot of, "They knew all about it then, there was never any need for this investigation." I suppose they have a point.  I just thought the report stately clearly that the CIA lied, like, a lot. And that they already knew torture doesn't work and had admitted as much at least once wrt the Russian spy who defected then got tortured after JFK was killed. The spy defector that the CIA apologized to, calling their treatment of him, "an abomination."Between this new budget, the (new, improved) unapologetic hatred of brown people, of immigration, of non-Christians, non-cops, non-straight-people, liberalsliberalsliberals, let's frack this planet to death and gently caress your drinking water and your future; I'm kinda out of hope.
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Dec 14, 2014 00:35
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Dr. Faustus posted:A lot of, "They knew all about it then, there was never any need for this investigation." That's the thing; all the opposition to the torture report is based on lies of one kind or another. On the one hand, yes, the Democrats did know some of this -- and they deserve to be shamed for that! -- but they didn't know all of it and they didn't know how utterly pointless and useless it all was, because the CIA was lying to everyone about those things.
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Dec 14, 2014 01:07
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Has there been a good write up of our various atrocities yet? I'm looking for a good read to send my dad.
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Dec 14, 2014 03:36
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Miltank posted:Has there been a good write up of our various atrocities yet? I'm looking for a good read to send my dad. What, like, all of them? That's a long-rear end list. I think the only countries with remotely manageable lists of atrocities are those too young and/or small to be in the game, but even the few dozen people on the Pitcairn Islands have some dark poo poo, so I don't even loving know.
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Dec 14, 2014 03:56
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nopantsjack posted:At least Republicans are honest, Who told you that?
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Dec 14, 2014 04:00
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Mister Adequate posted:What, like, all of them? That's a long-rear end list. I think the only countries with remotely manageable lists of atrocities are those too young and/or small to be in the game, but even the few dozen people on the Pitcairn Islands have some dark poo poo, so I don't even loving know. I meant the 21st century torture.
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Dec 14, 2014 04:06
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i am harry posted:Who told you that? 'Honest' in the sense that they don't misrepresent their platform and are entirely-candid about being awful people with awful views, as opposed to the Democrats, who get our hopes up about ending some of this poo poo and then let us down.
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Dec 14, 2014 04:49
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