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Kyrie eleison posted:Look, it's a well-established tenet of the religion whether "some groups" believe it or not. I can cite Scripture if you like. So is slavery, forced marriage and murder. However, most people don't follow those bits to the letter, so the scripture is irrelevant.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:06
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Bel Shazar posted:So is slavery, forced marriage and murder. However, most people don't follow those bits to the letter, so the scripture is irrelevant. The Scripture is irrelevant. Hmm. Yes. That sounds like an adherent to a religion.  It is not just Scripture, it is actively taught within Judaism. But, just to be clear, you are condemning all rabbis who teach this as racist, right?
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Dec 14, 2014 20:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:It is people like you who makes me absolutely not care if someone calls me "racist" -- so thank you for that. Wait, wait, wait, a racist doesn't think his racist ideals are racists. You have convinced me, you aren't racists, as this is a thing that racists have never done. Here is a hint, you don't get to decided whether you are racist or not, as you are not unbiased in this discussion. I only judge you by your actions. Believe it or not, I did not come in here to proclaim you a racist, it is just something you wanted to bring up yourself. If you want to maintain racial purity in your children, you are racist. That doesn't make you the worst kind of racist, but there are levels and you are definitely up there. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 14, 2014 |
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Dec 14, 2014 20:15
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Kyrie, the most important quality in any woman that you might marry is not race or religion; it's being completely aware that you are not straight and having no expectations that you will change that part of your personality. As long as you marry someone while lying about your sexuality, you are condemning not only yourself and your future wife, but also any children that you have to a family life of secrets and misery, and it will all fall apart tragically. Do not lie to yourself about how you represent yourself to women either, or you will fall into this trap. And if you can't find a woman who is happy marrying a closeted gay man, than you need to find happiness with a man instead.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:15
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Kyrie eleison posted:The Scripture is irrelevant. Hmm. Yes. That sounds like an adherent to a religion. Condemning is a strong word, but I would consider them racist and I *do* speak up whenever it comes up in conversation. However, that second part is not often, as Jewish folk in my immediate social circles are married to evangelical Christians.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:17
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Flip Yr Wig posted:Kyrie, the most important quality in any woman that you might marry is not race or religion; it's being completely aware that you are not straight and having no expectations that you will change that part of your personality. As long as you marry someone while lying about your sexuality, you are condemning not only yourself and your future wife, but also any children that you have to a family life of secrets and misery, and it will all fall apart tragically. Do not lie to yourself about how you represent yourself to women either, or you will fall into this trap. And if you can't find a woman who is happy marrying a repressed gay man, than you need to find happiness with a man instead. Oh enough of this. Just because a person has some homosexual inclinations does not make him strictly gay. The vast majority of people have some homosexual desires. Get it through your skull. I would not lie about it or keep secrets. When you reach a certain age, we see our youth as the wild past, and everyone gets on board with raising the next generation.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:20
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Bel Shazar posted:Condemning is a strong word, but I would consider them racist and I *do* speak up whenever it comes up in conversation. However, that second part is not often, as Jewish folk in my immediate social circles are married to evangelical Christians. Oh, sorry... you are calling them racist without any condemnation, then.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:22
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Kyrie eleison posted:I did not do so "arbitrarily." I gave good reasons for it which nobody has acknowledged. You just passed over them as if they were irrelevant. Yes, your reasons are to "preserve your heritage" or whatever, and that is a reason I find to be very arbitrary. I should have specified. Yes, it is about whiteness, in this specific case. You are white, and you want white children, ergo it is about whiteness. If you were asian and insisted on marrying only an asian, it'd be about asian-ness, that's true - but you aren't asian, and even if you were, we'd have the exact same issue with you wanting to preserve your race in your children. At least, I would. Lastly, I am really not sure what point you are trying to make by bringing up Muhammad Ali or Orthodox Jews. Yes, anyone else who was adamant about producing children in their own race would get the same criticism leveled at them as you are, even if they were not white or not Christian. Do you think we only have a problem with Christians or something?
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Dec 14, 2014 20:22
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Kyrie eleison posted:Oh, sorry... you are calling them racist without any condemnation, then. Racism seems to be more of a mental illness than anything else. You don't condemn the mentally ill, you try to get them to understand the depths of their problems and try to get them to seek the help they need.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:24
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Yes, your reasons are to "preserve your heritage" or whatever, and that is a reason I find to be very arbitrary. I should have specified. I do think this charge is often inconsistently applied, especially since you associate it with white supremacism despite it being a common value amongst every ethnicity, so far as I can tell. I'm glad we all agree that it's an extremely common and pervasive and traditional idea throughout all cultures, though. That makes it seem a little less bad, doesn't it?
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Dec 14, 2014 20:24
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Bel Shazar posted:Racism seems to be more of a mental illness than anything else. You don't condemn the mentally ill, you try to get them to understand the depths of their problems and try to get them to seek the help they need. Again -- if I told a therapist I intended to marry someone of my ethnicity they would not object at all because this is not classified as a mental illness.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:25
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Kyrie eleison posted:That makes it seem a little less bad, doesn't it? No not really. It just makes humanity as a whole suck that much more.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:25
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Bel Shazar posted:No not really. It just makes humanity as a whole suck that much more. Well look at it this way. It allows for a nice variety of cultures and peoples to exist. I like that -- I'm a fan of diversity.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:26
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Kyrie eleison posted:Oh enough of this. Just because a person has some homosexual inclinations does not make him strictly gay. The vast majority of people have some homosexual desires. Get it through your skull. I've never held that sexuality is binary, and I maybe I mischaracterized your orientation, but that's not really the point. You've repeatedly referred to your relationships with women as being weaker, not built on sexual attraction, and in detached clinical terms. You talked about marriage to a woman as an obligation that requires calculation. Yes, you also use flourishes like "burning passion," but that doesn't reflect the other ways you've described opposite-sex relationships. Your sexuality may be more complex than a snarky internet message board is capable of dealing with, but just make sure any potential life partner knows everything about it.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:The Scripture is irrelevant. Hmm. Yes. That sounds like an adherent to a religion. 1. Yeah, sure. 2. Religions are not as monolithic as you seem to believe, not are their tenents derived unambiguously from scripture. As someone who professes some form of Christianity, you must be aware of this. People in this thread aren't necessarily getting upset because you want to date white people, they are just somewhat confused as to why your ends in doing so appear to be "have a child that looks as much like me as possible". Are you truly that good-looking?
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Dec 14, 2014 20:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:Well look at it this way. It allows for a nice variety of cultures and peoples to exist. I like that -- I'm a fan of diversity. I think that makes you a fan of segregation.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:31
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Kyrie eleison posted:Well look at it this way. It allows for a nice variety of cultures and peoples to exist. I like that -- I'm a fan of diversity. A variety of cultures that dehumanize and attack "the other"... no thank you
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Dec 14, 2014 20:31
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Kyrie eleison posted:I do think this charge is often inconsistently applied, especially since you associate it with white supremacism despite it being a common value amongst every ethnicity, so far as I can tell. I think you are conflating several people's responses; I do not remember saying this was a feature of only white supremacism. I was saying you, specifically in your case, since you are white, are concerned about whiteness. quote:I'm glad we all agree that it's an extremely common and pervasive and traditional idea throughout all cultures, though. That makes it seem a little less bad, doesn't it? No??????? Are you serious? "Most people do it, so it's okay" has never been a good enough justification for something. Slavery was once very common and accepted, but it is very much horrifically bad.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:32
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Kyrie eleison posted:Again -- if I told a therapist I intended to marry someone of my ethnicity they would not object at all because this is not classified as a mental illness. No, but if you told a therapist that a crucial requirement, overriding all others, for someone you'd marry was they be of your ethnicity, you'd get a raised eyebrow at the very least. Kyrie eleison posted:Well look at it this way. It allows for a nice variety of cultures and peoples to exist. I like that -- I'm a fan of diversity. Would you say that you're an advocate of human biodiversity? Dzhay posted:1. Yeah, sure. Plus, anyone claiming that Judaism itself is seamless and unbroken in its teachings has clearly never seen two rabbis go at it. Nobody can argue like those cats.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:32
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Kyrie eleison posted:I assure you that amongst Jews, the idea that Jews should marry other Jews is not "quickly dying off." Again, it is a time-held religious tenet. I already said that Jews that hold to that idea have racist tendencies in regards to choosing partners. It was the first sentence for Christ's sake. Now you address the rest of my post.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:36
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Kyrie eleison posted:I do think this charge is often inconsistently applied, especially since you associate it with white supremacism despite it being a common value amongst every ethnicity, so far as I can tell. I'm glad we all agree that it's an extremely common and pervasive and traditional idea throughout all cultures, though. That makes it seem a little less bad, doesn't it? Not really. A lot of pervasive ideas are pretty bad. Just because they're common doesn't make them right. It's remarkable how your desire for an absolute outside authority pervades so much of your thinking. It must be god, or society, or precedent, or anything except your own critical judgement and commitment alone. One would think you don't believe in self control or something.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:52
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OwlFancier posted:One would think you don't believe in self control or something. I mean if he struggles so much with homosexual urges and sociopathic tendencies, so must everyone, right?
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Dec 14, 2014 21:16
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I still want to know if this whole shebang implies that there is something 'wrong' with adoptive children from a religious perspective. What if you married someone and it turned out you had a narrow urethra or they were barren, perhaps due to a curse levied by an unusually heterodox Protestant?
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Dec 14, 2014 22:16
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Kyrie eleison posted:Just because a person has some homosexual inclinations does not make him strictly gay. The vast majority of people don't wistfully talk about how the only time they've found romantic solace is with a man, though.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:42
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There is only one thing that matters and it is racial purity.Flip Yr Wig posted:Kyrie, the most important quality in any woman that you might marry is not race or religion; it's being completely aware that you are not straight and having no expectations that you will change that part of your personality. As long as you marry someone while lying about your sexuality, you are condemning not only yourself and your future wife, but also any children that you have to a family life of secrets and misery, and it will all fall apart tragically. I seriously hope Kyrie never gets married because it will completely gently caress up his wife and kids. Captain_Maclaine posted:Plus, anyone claiming that Judaism itself is seamless and unbroken in its teachings has clearly never seen two rabbis go at it. Nobody can argue like those cats. So much so that there's multiple jokes about it. Not the one I was looking for (where God says "Yo this rabbi is totally right about everything" and the opposing rabbis say "Okay so now the vote is five to TWO") but this one works just as well. Rabbi Gold is taken ill and is admitted to Bushey Hospital for treatment. A few days after his admittance, Max, the shul’s secretary, goes to visit him. "Rabbi," says Max, "I’m here on behalf of our Board of Trustees. They have asked me to bring you their good wishes for a speedy recovery and their hope that you should live to be 110." "Thank you," says Rabbi Gold, "I’m pleased to hear of their good wishes for me." "And so you should be, Rabbi," says Max, "it was touch and go for a while but the final vote on whether we should send you any good wishes ended up 11 to 9 in your favor."
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Dec 15, 2014 01:45
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Kyrie eleison posted:Well look at it this way. It allows for a nice variety of cultures and peoples to exist. I like that -- I'm a fan of diversity. Just not in your marriage. You are a shameful Catholic.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:04
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Just not in your marriage.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:16
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I would be astonioshingly surprised if the Catholic church was against adoption, considering the church as far as I know has a well established history of running orphanages. Whether they're necessarily good at kids is debatable but there's certainly plenty of Catholics who actually act on all that Jesus jargon about charity.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:20
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Nessus posted:Hey Wiggles, can you answer that question about adopted children? I'm curious since in a certain sense this entire enterprise of yours seems to turn on whether or not Jesus "counts" as also Joseph's son, which Kyrie asserted he did - but also, Jesus was, to say the least, not Joseph's genetic child. Catholicism is pretty obviously in the "adoption is a good thing" camp. Remember the whole DC adoption kerfluffle? That was a huge issue since Catholic Charities was running the adoption services for the city.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:23
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Kyrie eleison posted:Oh enough of this. Just because a person has some homosexual inclinations does not make him strictly gay. The vast majority of people have some homosexual desires. Get it through your skull.  No, you don't "grow out of" being gay, your sexual orientation is an integral part of you from birth to death, same as your skin color, your eye color, and your number of vertebrae. Kyrie, you're gay (or at least bisexual and leaning heavily towards homosexual), there's nothing wrong with that, it's just who you are.Berke Negri posted:Please gently caress a dude, OP.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:35
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rkajdi posted:Catholicism is pretty obviously in the "adoption is a good thing" camp. Remember the whole DC adoption kerfluffle? That was a huge issue since Catholic Charities was running the adoption services for the city. Yeah, adoption is ++good stuff in the Catholic world. Every kid deserves a good home. That's kind of a universal human thing, though, and not just a Catholic thing: who doesn't want good things for kids except assholes?
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Dec 15, 2014 02:48
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Yeah, adoption is ++good stuff in the Catholic world. Every kid deserves a good home. That's kind of a universal human thing, though, and not just a Catholic thing: who doesn't want good things for kids except assholes? I had however wondered if there were any contrary messages hiding in a hole somewhere, mostly for the irony of 'good thing Joseph didn't find Mary insufficiently similar to himself, eh?' 
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Dec 15, 2014 02:57
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Yeah, adoption is ++good stuff in the Catholic world. Every kid deserves a good home. That's kind of a universal human thing, though, and not just a Catholic thing: who doesn't want good things for kids except assholes? Given the number of assholes in the world I don't think you can claim something is a universal human trait and then exempt them... 
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Dec 15, 2014 03:13
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Wiggles you're still a universalist right? Do you believe nobody ever goes to Hell or that they do but it'll be temporary?
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Dec 15, 2014 03:31
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Just not in your marriage. You said the devil doesn't exist, you argue in favor of priestly marriage, and gay marriage within the Church. I can probably guess your opinions on contraception, divorce, euthanasia, and abortion. I expressed a totally common preference which you evidently think is against Catholic teaching (it's not), and so you called me "shameful," thereby promoting unnecessary division in the church. You also like to deride Catholic Answers (and the elderly) for some reason; I'll take them over your theology any day. Tell me, do you think it is important that a Catholic marry another Catholic? Is it even important that they be Christian? Perhaps it's time for you to consider being Episcopalian. Shameful indeed.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:50
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Its Kyrie's theology or the highway.  This also makes it....what, the third time Kyrie's changed his avatar?
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Dec 15, 2014 04:03
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CommieGIR posted:Its Kyrie's theology or the highway. It's Catholic theology or the highway, yes. And what's your point? Other people buy me avatars, so I eventually replace it with one of my standards.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:08
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Kyrie eleison posted:You said the devil doesn't exist, you argue in favor of priestly marriage, and gay marriage within the Church. I can probably guess your opinions on contraception, divorce, euthanasia, and abortion. I expressed a totally common preference which you evidently think is against Catholic teaching (it's not), and so you called me "shameful," thereby promoting unnecessary division in the church. You also like to deride Catholic Answers (and the elderly) for some reason; I'll take them over your theology any day. I have read and argued with Wiggles' peculiar Catholic variations for years now and while I find much in them that is perplexing, at times frustrating, and certainly personally unconvincing, he possesses a far greater concern for and empathy towards humanity than anything I've seen in anything you've posted (and seriously, when has he ever mouthed off about old people, that came out of nowhere). Not that I expect you to see that as anything other than validation of your own convictions, of course.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:09
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Captain_Maclaine posted:I have read and argued with Wiggles' peculiar Catholic variations for years now and while I find much in them that is perplexing, at times frustrating, and certainly personally unconvincing, he possesses a far greater concern for and empathy towards humanity than anything I've seen in anything you've posted (and seriously, when has he ever mouthed off about old people, that came out of nowhere). He said that Catholic Answers was "appealing to the angry-50 year old-white person demographic", which is both against the elderly, and racist.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:12
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Kyrie eleison posted:It's Catholic theology or the highway, yes. For someone bemoaning others for their criticism of your faith, you sure are smug.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:12
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