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computer parts posted:They did do something - they stopped. Guantanamo is still open. Bagram is still open. I flat out don't believe the US is not currently torturing people.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:34
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PhilippAchtel posted:US citizens living overseas still file income taxes returns, but are allowed to deduct the first $100k-ish, so I'm still fulfilling my obligations. You've never left. You will never leave, and you will always be complicit.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:40
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Andrew Johnson spinning his grave so many disloyal throats might voice opposition to a nation that has done nothing but given itself for the world.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:41
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Orange Devil posted:Guantanamo is still open. This more than anything is why Obama doesn't prosecute the Bush Administration. He'd be signing his own death warrant. Great time to be an American. 
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Dec 14, 2014 23:42
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Rand alPaul posted:This more than anything is why Obama doesn't prosecute the Bush Administration. He'd be signing his own death warrant. Is executive order still out of the question, and extending it to their placement on U.S. soil, maybe in D.C. since it's a fuzzy distinction territory?
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Dec 14, 2014 23:44
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Right, as if the previous administration wasn't droning the poo poo out of weddings. It's not much, but I'll take blowing up weddings over blowing up weddings AND butt stuff AND a "gently caress you for asking questions" for good measure.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:52
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Rand alPaul posted:This more than anything is why Obama doesn't prosecute the Bush Administration. He'd be signing his own death warrant. Yeah, seriously. Anyone that believes they're not still torturing with the same techniques that we've been hearing in these reports - if not worse, is fully delusional. Why should they stop when there's absolutely zero consequences to be faced for keeping up with it? It's damage control and PR. As long as there are mind-damaged people working behind and supervising three letter agencies, this sort of thing won't end anytime soon. The two party system can rectally infuse itself with a hummus coated banana, since both sides seem just as eager to get in on the torture game.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:53
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They're Just Brown People Why Do You Care? - Non-miniscule portion of americans
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Dec 15, 2014 00:07
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Seems like the choice is torture, murder and lies, or to double down on the murder and lies. Both parties seem real big on the murder and lies, but I guess the Democrats are less psyched about the butt stuff now than they were back then. Progress? I fail to see a meaningful distinction.
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Dec 15, 2014 00:25
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Badera posted:I fail to see a meaningful distinction.
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Dec 15, 2014 00:44
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Kitfox88 posted:They're Just Brown People Why Do You Care? - Non-miniscule portion of americans Yeah, the civil rights movement didn't end racism. WWII didn't end fascism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNlSnSDfsT4&t=3630s
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Dec 15, 2014 00:45
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PhilippAchtel posted:I'd really like to know which of these is true because I've heard them both out of the same camp: It's "you're not voting for us anyway so we don't really care (as long as we're winning), if we lose though then you'll be even madder".
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Dec 15, 2014 00:53
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Also, educate people. Argue with your racist grandpas and your Tea Party-voting coworkers and your fence-sitting neighbors. Don't clam up when they parrot Fox News talking points for the sake of keeping the peace. Touch the poop. Yes, it's going to be a long, thankless ordeal. No, a lot of them won't actually listen. It's still worthwhile and necessary because as long as the general voting base has only the vaguest idea of why there's a problem, or even thinks that there IS no problem (or wouldn't be if those drat LIBRULS would stop AGITATING and RACE-BAITING), "Lesser of Two Evils" is the best we'll ever be able to do. I actually think this is good advice. Something people need to keep in mind, however - you're not going to change the person's mind to whom you are engaged in debating/arguing with. The mind you DO change is the people who are listening in on your debate with the other person(s) and watching how you react to each other. This is a distinction that has changed entirely how I talk to people.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:22
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Orange Devil posted:Guantanamo is still open. Closing Gitmo was specifically banned by congress in such a way that Obama literally had no choice in the matter. Again, there are things to insult the man on but Gitmo really isn't one of them unless you somehow think he should have vetoed the spending bill and sent the country into default.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:52
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Yeah President Shuts Down Government Over Terrorists wouldn't have been a good headline for him, to put it mildly
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Dec 15, 2014 01:59
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I have to say, "psychologically disadvantaged to their interrogator" has to be one of the most fantastic euphemisms for "we tortured the poo poo out of someone until they were a blubbering shell of a human". Top notch.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:59
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I'm remembering when it was a big deal that Sadaam Hussein had "rape rooms." Too bad he didn't have a Cheney on his side to explain that a good percentage of the people they were torturing were bad guys.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:05
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I'm remembering when it was a big deal that Sadaam Hussein had "rape rooms." It's different because it's America. We are the good guys, we don't torture or stoop to the level of evil. That's why we have to torture. We have to destroy our principles in order to save them.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:06
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TEAYCHES posted:It's different because it's America. We are the good guys, we don't torture or stoop to the level of evil. That's why we have to torture. Are they really principles if we haven't kept to them ever (or at least in the past century)?
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Dec 15, 2014 02:15
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I'm remembering when it was a big deal that Sadaam Hussein had "rape rooms." The rape rooms and the plastic shredder room turned out to be completely fake, too. Great propaganda 
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Dec 15, 2014 02:20
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computer parts posted:Are they really principles if we haven't kept to them ever (or at least in the past century)? That's what really gets my goose though. The rhetoric of our leaders is so far from the reality that it's really sickening. Some level of idealism I think is preferable to a realism that borders on nihilism - a shrug of the shoulders and a "welp this is just how it is" - I don't think that's healthy on any level. Even if you can't personally do anything about it, strongly rejecting it and being outspoken about it has its own value.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:22
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TEAYCHES posted:That's what really gets my goose though. The rhetoric of our leaders is so far from the reality that it's really sickening. When you define "strong rejection" as "sitting on your rear end and refusing to vote", that's nihilistic (or at least apathetic) in and of itself.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:27
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computer parts posted:When you define "strong rejection" as "sitting on your rear end and refusing to vote", that's nihilistic (or at least apathetic) in and of itself. I keep voting for Not Dick Cheney and this torture keeps happening! Am I doing it wrong?
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Dec 15, 2014 03:19
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I'm remembering when it was a big deal that Sadaam Hussein had "rape rooms." The U.S. had eel rape rooms in Vietnam. 
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Dec 15, 2014 03:23
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computer parts posted:When you define "strong rejection" as "sitting on your rear end and refusing to vote", that's nihilistic (or at least apathetic) in and of itself. I didn't define it as not voting, I defined it as being strongly outspoken, and I'd further say it's important to get involved in popular opposition when possible. You are really mean and I don't believe that you are arguing in Debate & Discussion in good faith.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:25
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Party Plane Jones posted:The U.S. had eel rape rooms in Vietnam. Did you mean real, or did we have actual eel rape rooms?
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Dec 15, 2014 03:30
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Bel Shazar posted:Did you mean real, or did we have actual eel rape rooms?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program
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Dec 15, 2014 03:33
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My god we are atrocious
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Dec 15, 2014 03:38
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Let me just see what people I know are making of this appalling development.quote:Sleep deprivation, Britney Spears' music, and water boarding actually provide solid ratio of good to bad intel (UBL was bagged based on intel gained through these methods, so saying that "they don't work, period" is completely false). quote:That study didn't interview a single member of the interrogators at Guantanamo, nor is it very comprehensive. That report is actually comprised of purely second- or third-hand information. There are actually several more major issues with the report itself that put its credibility in serious doubt. In fact, most people who actually understand how intelligence is gathered (this includes people on the very committee that are on that released the report) condemn the report as nothing but a political stunt. quote:I was waterboarded once, and while definitely not fun, it's designed to be more for the terror-inducing stress (and good grief does it do that job well) than any physical harm. 
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Dec 15, 2014 04:01
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Bel Shazar posted:My god we are atrocious
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Dec 15, 2014 04:04
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Oh well I feel a lot better that the CIA Report is just the latest in a long series of America human rights abuses. US soldiers waterboarded and tortured Philippino independence fighters from 1899-1902.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:41
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The CIA tortured 40,000 Vietnamese civilians to death between 1965 and 1972. That is loving crazy to me and I had no idea.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:50
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Jack Gladney posted:The CIA tortured 40,000 Vietnamese civilians to death between 1965 and 1972. That is loving crazy to me and I had no idea. And yet people say America isn't improving.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:52
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Trabisnikof posted:And yet people say America isn't improving. It's like the more you learn the more you find that your worst fears became a reality before you were born... this friggin' place.
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Dec 15, 2014 05:03
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Anubis posted:Closing Gitmo was specifically banned by congress in such a way that Obama literally had no choice in the matter.
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Dec 15, 2014 05:11
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twodot posted:This is simply not true. Congress certainly made the alternatives politically disadvantageous, but Congress absolutely can not force the executive branch to detain people. I notice you like selective quoting to try and make it seem like I didn't know an unrealistic option of vetoing the already contentious spending bill existed. But hey, the tens of thousands that would likely die in the economic turmoil of a US default is just the price of moral high ground, right? Seriously, hate him for the reasons you should but the man did spend more political capital trying to close gitmo than any other national politician that I'm aware of, even if that isn't a high bar to step over.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:09
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Anubis posted:I notice you like selective quoting to try and make it seem like I didn't know an unrealistic option of vetoing the already contentious spending bill existed. But hey, the tens of thousands that would likely die in the economic turmoil of a US default is just the price of moral high ground, right? Seriously, hate him for the reasons you should but the man did spend more political capital trying to close gitmo than any other national politician that I'm aware of, even if that isn't a high bar to step over. You know, when the 2013 shutdown went into effect, I was out in Washington on vacation. My mother and I were in Olympic National Park - we'd made it there literally an hour before it kicked in and they closed it to motor traffic. She asked me to explain just what the hell Congress was doing, and why, because she couldn't fathom anything that insanely-petty. I told her, "Imagine the hostage scene from Blazing Saddles if the Sheriff had actually pulled the trigger."
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Dec 15, 2014 07:23
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I find it very difficult to believe the president couldn't close Guantanamo Bay if he wished to. It's an illegal operation in a foreign country run by dubious intelligence services and the military. I don't think there's a clause in the constitution assigning those powers exclusively to the legislative branch.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:24
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Rand alPaul posted:I find it very difficult to believe the president couldn't close Guantanamo Bay if he wished to. It's an illegal operation in a foreign country run by dubious intelligence services and the military. I don't think there's a clause in the constitution assigning those powers exclusively to the legislative branch. Somehow it's making some people a lot of money and they are above the Constitution.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:32
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Look closer, it's under Article I, Section 8, Paragraph We're Throwing A Tantrum Now Give Us What We Want Or We'll Drive This Government Straight Off A Cliff. No wonder the Republicans claim that negotiation will only embolden terrorists. Just look at what it does for them.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:33
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