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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Amount of taxes etc. paid minus benefits received. Well, if we are going to do unsourced claims, I'll just claim that foreigners are 16,4 percent worse in that regard than Germans. 
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Dec 17, 2014 23:49
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I have an idea where the claim is coming from, and if I'm correct, I'm not looking forward to what follows.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:51
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Badly Jester posted:
the nazis killed six million jews, seriously, gently caress them forever
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Dec 17, 2014 23:53
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Cingulate posted:I have an idea where the claim is coming from, and if I'm correct, I'm not looking forward to what follows. Let's talk about whether considering Renten a transfer is an acceptable interpretation and if it's methodically unethical to not even mention § 22 Nr. 1 lit. a) aa) EstG when talking about age structure and a Rente-to-tax ratio. 
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Dec 17, 2014 23:54
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It's a recent Bertelsmann Stiftung study. The main number I heard about was 67% of foreigners versus 60% of Germans contributing more money to society than they receive. But basically every news source extracts a different message from it. So I retract that statement. But at least one thing seems to be certain across most reports: foreigners are not a net negative from a money perspective. Also: Where the gently caress is this study? I have tried to find it... Maybe you have to pay for it.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:00
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Also: Where the gently caress is this study? I have tried to find it... Maybe you have to pay for it. http://www.tagesschau.de/zuwanderung-101~_origin-bafe8750-68b8-40a1-a155-9e8871170e4b.pdf Study page 24 (page 30 in the PDF-Viewer). I don't really have the time to review it in depth, but as I already it said, while it finds foreigners to generally not be a net drain on society, they fare worse than Germans. As for the methods used, I feel kinda weird about classifying schools and Renten as transfers. Both of which favour foreigners due to the age structure of their population, as them being younger means more people will have to pay taxes on Rente received, while more Germans would still receive Rente without having to pay taxes on it. (As an aside, as a young person, it's probably preferable to pay taxes on Rente while being able to deduct money paid into the system as a Sonderausgabe to the old system of not having to pay taxes on Rente, while having to pay taxes on the money paid in.) Randler fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 00:04
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Randler posted:http://www.tagesschau.de/zuwanderung-101~_origin-bafe8750-68b8-40a1-a155-9e8871170e4b.pdf Thanks.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:04
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Read it. I'm not fully confident in some of their predictive models (although honestly, that poo poo is nearly impossible anyways), but if you add together everything, immigrants are a net negative. (On the other hand, without immigrants, the German population would be massively shrinking already so not having any is so not an option at all.) I think such values should be taken with several grams of salt, for example because immigrants currently filling up a lot of the low-SES segment doesn't mean we wouldn't have a nearly equal-sized low-SES segment if they weren't here. Maybe we'd have the same low-SES people, with lightly less tanned skin, and somewhat less guttural accents ...
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Dec 18, 2014 00:11
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V. Illych L. posted:the nazis killed six million jews, seriously, gently caress them forever
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Dec 18, 2014 00:12
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One weird trick to study analysis Big Academia doesn't want you to know: Always assume the opposite of what Bertelsmann and INSM sponsored studies claim to find. (Hahaha, they even call the gesetzliche Krankenkassen transfers.  TK ain't no transfer.)
Randler fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 00:13
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Cingulate posted:I don't know how familiar you are with the German situation, but a vast majority of Germans, easily over 50 million people, was to some degree a Nazi, including millions of proletarians. Yeah, I wasn't making a serious point (I try to stay more original than "the nazis were bad"), more trying to hint at maybe the analogy I quoted was maybe not 100% waterproof and alternatives could be found that didn't help the point being made at all.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:19
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Going by context and statements regarding future reforms, I'm starting to suspect that the ZEW study is cherry picking and quietly disregards asylum seekers, recognized or not, for a lot of their claims.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:22
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Welp. gently caress the news for picking numbers selectively. Across the whole political spectrum. And I would really like to see a comparison to actually useful benchmarks. Like comparing groups of similar education and wealth.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:23
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Süddeutsche posted:Jeder Bürger könnte der Untersuchung zufolge um mehr als 400 Euro jährlich fiskalisch entlastet werden, wenn künftig pro Jahr mindestens 200 000 Zuwanderer nach Deutschland kämen und 30 Prozent von ihnen hoch und weitere 50 Prozent mittel qualifiziert wären. Guys, if I understand this correctly we could get a basic income of 400 EUR for everyone in Germany if we can scrap together another 2.4 mio more immigrants by the end of December. Holy poo poo, we will never have to work a single day in our lives again!
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Dec 18, 2014 00:27
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Also some numbers about "Personen mit Migrationshintergrund" would be nice, too.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:32
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Randler posted:Going by context and statements regarding future reforms, I'm starting to suspect that the ZEW study is cherry picking and quietly disregards asylum seekers, recognized or not, for a lot of their claims. Randler posted:One weird trick to study analysis Big Academia doesn't want you to know: Always assume the opposite of what Bertelsmann and INSM sponsored studies claim to find. waitwhatno posted:Guys, if I understand this correctly we could get a basic income of 400 EUR for everyone in Germany if we can scrap together another 2.4 mio more immigrants by the end of December. Holy poo poo, we will never have to work a single day in our lives again!
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Dec 18, 2014 01:05
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Are you talking about immigrants in general being a net negative or only immigrants without German citizenship?
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Dec 18, 2014 01:22
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Me? Also: a part of me actually wants to ban pork in schools and call Weihnachtsmärkte Wintermärkte and maybe some nice cherry on top, like a law that for every cross in a schoolroom you also have to have a half moon and a menora, just to piss off covert and not so covert racists. That part is 100% of me.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:26
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Cingulate posted:Me? Yes. Cingulate posted:I'm not fully confident in some of their predictive models (although honestly, that poo poo is nearly impossible anyways), but if you add together everything, immigrants are a net negative. Or do you mean immigrants being a net negative is the outcome of the study for foreigners aka people without a German passport.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:29
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Cingulate posted:Me?  Actually these people have become incredible annoying and the original idea seems to be kinda lost.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:30
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The groups "Deutsche mit Migrationshintergrund" and "Ausländer" are roughly the same size after all, but the study is only about the second group.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:34
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e X posted:Actually these people have become incredible annoying and the original idea seems to be kinda lost. Lucy Heartfilia posted:Yes. quote:Stellt man den Ausländern gemäß ihrem Bevölkerungsanteil einen Anteil an den allgemeinen Staats- ausgaben – Verteidigung, Straßenbau etc. – in Rechnung, gerät ihre fiskalische Bilanz ins Defizit. Lucy Heartfilia posted:The groups "Deutsche mit Migrationshintergrund" and "Ausländer" are roughly the same size after all, but the study is only about the second group. Edit: oh, and I'm not reading these numbers to mean that Germany is worse off for having them. I don't think that is what they're saying, and I think the study can, and probably should, still be read as being pro immigration. It's just that IF you decide to do this silly game where you look at individuals as if they could be numerically separated from their context, you end up with numbers that the NPD can flaunt more than reasonable people. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 01:36
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e X posted:
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Dec 18, 2014 01:41
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Cingulate posted:"Incredibly annoying" is far from the worst thing religious people are though. Imagine islamists, scientologists or christian fundamentalists were only "incredibly annoying"; the world would be a lot better. Of course, "not as bad as ISIS" isn't much to write home about. Yes, but they basically took a rhetoric argument against religious presence in education and turned into some funny gimmick believe a la Discordianism or the Church of the Subgenius. If you actually try to argue and their entire contribution is to hanging up a cullender, it does not actually help.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:41
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At worst, it's a lame joke.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:45
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I see. I'm still very sceptical because the study doesn't have any useful benchmarks for comparioson and because it doesn't include "Deutsche mit Migrationshintergrund". Some people might become German citizens very quickly, while others keep their foreign citizenship forever. What effects does this have? This reminds me of the crime statistics. The definition of foreigner in these statistics is persons without German citizenship who live in Germany AND persons without German citizenship who don't live in Germany. The news then cite one of the two different numbers and call it crime by 'Ausländer'.
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Dec 18, 2014 01:46
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:This reminds me of the crime statistics. The definition of foreigner in these statistics is persons without German citizenship who live in Germany AND persons without German citizenship who don't live in Germany. The news then cite one of the two different numbers and call it crime by 'Ausländer'.
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Dec 18, 2014 02:02
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Should you need an Austrian to fix Germany again, I am available.
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Dec 18, 2014 13:12
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Riso posted:Should you need an Austrian to fix Germany again, I am available. Hmm, I don't know. What are your art school credentials?
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Dec 18, 2014 14:26
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System Metternich posted:Hmm, I don't know. What are your art school credentials? The worse the better.
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Dec 18, 2014 14:34
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System Metternich posted:Hmm, I don't know. What are your art school credentials? Remember, he needs at least one rejection to qualify. Edit: gently caress, beaten already.
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Dec 18, 2014 15:01
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Credentials, Schmentials.
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Dec 18, 2014 16:47
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If lack of artistic ability was a real indicator of fascist tendencies in our leaders - welcome to the fourth reich, gentlemen.
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Dec 18, 2014 17:23
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You are a really lovely artist and I hate your paintings, but that's how the Holocaust started ... soo ... how much for the painting?
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Dec 18, 2014 17:50
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I am worse than Hitler because while he brought full employment I bring you... NEOLIBERALISM*. *Ordo actually but that's not that great a punchline.
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Dec 18, 2014 18:08
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Riso posted:I am worse than Hitler because while he brought full employment I bring you... NEOLIBERALISM*. So the Final Solution will be found on the free Market?
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Dec 18, 2014 18:15
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posh spaz posted:God, no. No, killing, torturing and bombing makes people hate "the west". Standing up for "good" Western values would mean to rethink our doing and how they alinge with those values first before we judge others. The War on Terror, like the war on drugs an empty loving propaganda phrase that justifies measures that most of the time strenghten what they fight. Fighting Terror is policework and intelligence work at best. GreenLight fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 18:28
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e X posted:So the Final Solution will be found on the free Market? Final Solutions are bad for business. Instead can I interest you in a series of Temporary Solutions with build-in planned obsolescence?
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Dec 18, 2014 20:22
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talking about the final solution: that could get interesting
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Dec 18, 2014 20:28
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elwood posted:talking about the final solution: I don't understand why you would blur people's names on stuff like that
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Dec 18, 2014 20:29
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