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Kyrie eleison posted:Also, all the stuff you guys are posting about Christianity being a copy of prior religions is totally discredited. Most of the traits attributed with prior Egyptian gods or whatever are totally made up out of whole cloth, or extreme stretches and distortions. Literal lies and propaganda by the Zeitgeist team and those like them. Good luck convincing anyone of that poo poo when scrutiny is So do you mind, like, posting citations for any of this? Or is the proof backing up what you say something you prefer to hold back from infidels for whimsical giggling-behind-your-sleeve purposes?
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Dec 23, 2014 20:31
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Ddraig posted:There was also the Roman cult of Mithra. Not to take the wind out of your sails, but most of this is just flat out wrong: December Birth - There is no stated date for the birth of Mithra in contemporary works. Mithra is considered to be a separate incarnation of Sol Invictus (The sun god) or a dual aspect of him, or completely unrelated depending on who you ask. Iin 274 the Roman Emperor Aurelian gave the cult of Sol Invictus official status, naming his birthday as December 25th. Mithraists inferred that this would also make his birthday december 25th but it really is up in the air depending on your interpretation of the relationship of the two gods. It is also worth noting that December 25th birth of Jesus was more or less picked out of a hat to coincide with a pagan holiday, so the fact that they share the date doesn't mean much. Wise teacher with twelve disciples - Mithra wasn't really believed to be a historical person who walked the earth, so the idea of him being a wandering teacher with twelve disciples doesn't make a lot of sense and is pretty much made up whole cloth to be used in comparisons like the one you are making. The only connection that can really be drawn is that there are some instances of the zodiac symbols appearing in Mythraic ruins, and there happened to be twelve of those. Twelve is a pretty common number of significance in various places however. Death and Resurrection - Mithra eventually returned to heaven, but there isn't actually any recorded instance of Mithra dying, let alone resurrecting after three days. Lion and Lamb - Lion yes, Lamb no. There are Mythraic statues of a man with a lion head but without inscription who the gently caress knows who it was supposed to be. The greeks called a similar egyptian god Aion so that might be it. Virgin birth - In the Roman version of Mithra's birth he comes fully formed out of a cave as an adult. Virgin birth I guess but not really the same discussion. The Persian account has him born of Anahita who was a virgin, but that version tends to be all sorts of confusing because Anahita is often referred to as a a consort of Mithra. Also, Mithra was a contemporary of Christ in terms of when their cults became active, so it wouldn't be surprising if they tried to steal some of JC's thunder. The whole Mithra-Christ connection really got popular in the wake of Zeitgeist, and shockingly a movie about 9/11 conspiracy theories is pretty much entirely full of poo poo.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:31
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VitalSigns posted:Yes yes Christianity is all metaphor and symbolism whenever anyone asks what makes it more true than any other religious tradition, then conveniently elides to literal history later when that becomes useful for debate. Wasn't it you that was asking what I meant by "the event of Jesus as the Christ" earlier? Anyway criterion of embarrassment means the crucifixion was probably something that literally did happen. If one were to go about fabricating a religion right now, would it be a good move to pick the most offense person conceivable who then suffers the most offense end possible to the general population as the divine?
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Dec 23, 2014 20:31
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VitalSigns posted:So do you mind, like, posting citations for any of this? Or is the proof backing up what you say something you prefer to hold back from infidels for whimsical giggling-behind-your-sleeve purposes? He is actually right on this one. I mean, to be clear there are still a ton of connections between JC and old gods, particularly egyptian ones, but the Mithra example is so full of poo poo that it actively detracts from real functional examples.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:32
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BrandorKP posted:It's an deeply embarrassing, scandalous, statement in it's original context. That graffiti, I posted earlier is a concrete example of that. This was an embarrassing, a low, thing to say. Who gives a poo poo? He's God. How pathetic and petty would it be for him to care in the slightest? BrandorKP posted:And from that book the best way to word the question at the heart of Christianity: "Is there a meaning in meaninglessness?" No. If there was it wouldn't be meaningless. That's what it means. BrandorKP posted:Does the worst reality has to offer, in the "vilest death" is there any meaning, reality, or truth to be found? We were talking about Job earlier. In that moment when Job has lost his family, his possession, his health, and his faith, do we, can we, find meaning and truth in our reality if (or when) it is our turn to be there? Job never gets an answer. What do you mean Job never gets an answer? Have you ever even read the story of Job? For gently caress's sake: Job 42:10-16 posted:10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring. He's returned many, many times over for what he lost. You have to completely ignore the part where he is completely vindicated to try and say that he never gets an answer. Seriously, when was the last time you actually read the story of Job, because you seemed to have missed the entire point of the story. BrandorKP posted:Rejected by one's people and community, condemned as a criminal an enemy of the state, tortured, executed, and in a manner designed to be deny a corpse. "You can't get any higher than that!" But that's where the God of Christianity is! And remember the people writing this down, affirming this, in the New Testament gospels this is happening to their communities too. Again, he's God, who gives a poo poo? He also wasn't denied his body because the apostles were allowed to take him down, so that doesn't apply. He didn't even suffer as much as many others did because they killed him relatively quickly and never broke his legs like they did to many others who were crucified. Torture, execution, the whole thing is rendered worthless because he's God. The story is ruined before it ever even began. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 20:37
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Caros posted:popular in the wake of Zeitgeist Always been funny to me that they picked "zeitgeist" as the name of that movie.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:38
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BrandorKP posted:Always been funny to me that they picked "zeitgeist" as the name of that movie. The spirit of this age is apparently crazy and full of outright lies. Yeah... that sounds somewhat accurate.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:40
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Kyrie eleison posted:The irony is, Christianity will last forever, whereas all the non-Christian customs you think are important will fade away. I'm sure the Greeks thought Zeus would too 
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Dec 23, 2014 20:41
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CommieGIR posted:I'm sure the Greeks thought Zeus would too They were not exactly wrong... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibz4Ti3NszE
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Dec 23, 2014 20:44
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Who What Now posted:He's related many, many times over for what he lost. You have to completely ignore the part where he is completely vindicated to try and say that he never gets an answer. Seriously, when was the last time you actually read the story of Job, because you seemed to have missed the entire point of the story. Good job there Zophar. A new wife and children is not vindication for the lost wife and children.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:45
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BrandorKP posted:Wasn't it you that was asking what I meant by "the event of Jesus as the Christ" earlier? The more embarrassing, the more likely something is to be true? Well drat okay. Last night God made me His bitch and forced me to eat pig poo poo and gently caress porcupines and call out my mom's name while I came oh and also He commands you to give me 10% of your money and a palace in Rome. Would I make that up?
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Dec 23, 2014 20:46
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BrandorKP posted:Anyway criterion of embarrassment means the crucifixion was probably something that literally did happen. No, it absolutely is not. You know what the actual criterion for determining if something literally happened? Evidence that it literally happened. This means archeological evidence, or multiple corroborating accounts from different contemporary sources. Not that it would be "embarrassing". That's so loving retarded I'm shocked that even you can't see that.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:47
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BrandorKP posted:Good job there Zophar. A new wife and children is not vindication for the lost wife and children. Wives and children were considered little more than property in the Old Testament, so yes, it absolutely was. Read the story instead of just making poo poo up about it.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:48
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Caros posted:The spirit of this age is apparently crazy and full of outright lies. Yeah... that sounds somewhat accurate. And totally unaware of it's ironies.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:50
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Who What Now posted:Wives and children were considered little more than property in the Old Testament, so yes, it absolutely was. Read the story instead of just making poo poo up about it.  Interpretation
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Dec 23, 2014 20:51
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Who What Now posted:No, it absolutely is not. You know what the actual criterion for determining if something literally happened? Evidence that it literally happened. This means archeological evidence, or multiple corroborating accounts from different contemporary sources. Not that it would be "embarrassing". That's so loving retarded I'm shocked that even you can't see that. If P then Q Gosh P is a little embarrassing, don't you think? I mean, who would make that up, like come on. Therefore Q. Logic!
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Dec 23, 2014 20:54
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VitalSigns posted:If P then Q No mom, if I broke that Lamp it would be embarrassing for all of us, me especially. Therefore a ghost broke it. Clearly.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:56
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Who What Now posted:No, it absolutely is not. You know what the actual criterion for determining if something literally happened? Evidence that it literally happened. This means archeological evidence, or multiple corroborating accounts from different contemporary sources. Not that it would be "embarrassing". That's so loving retarded I'm shocked that even you can't see that. You know you can google things right? You should also probably look up : "criterion of discontinuity" "independent attestation" "Historical method" Who What Now posted:Wives and children were considered little more than property in the Old Testament, so yes, it absolutely was. Read the story instead of just making poo poo up about it. It's also probably also a later addition to the story. Read critical commentary.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:57
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The real story of Christ actually played out like the movie Bubba Ho-Tep. The real Son of God did not die on the cross. It was a Christ impersonator.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:58
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Caros posted:No mom, if I broke that Lamp it would be embarrassing for all of us, me especially. Therefore a ghost broke it. Clearly. Entropy. BrandorKP posted:You know you can google things right? You know why Biblical Archaeology and Archaeology are separate fields right? Because one tries to verify its pre-determined claims with flimsy evidence, ignoring all others, while the other takes the evidence and pieces it together and accepts what the evidence shows. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 21:00
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BrandorKP posted:You know you can google things right? Criterion of Discontinuity posted:The criterion has received criticism for leading to reconstructions of Jesus as being in implausible discontinuity with the early Jewish traditions that preceded him and the early Christian traditions that followed from him. One such critic writes: "The problem of the Criterion of Double Dissimilarity is that the more we know about early Jewish traditions and the more we know about early Christian post-Easter traditions, the less space there is for a reconstruction of the authentic sayings of Jesus, as by definition they have to differ from early Jewish and early Christian traditions. Therefore, in the end, no trace of a historical Jesus remains."[4] Wow, imagine that, someone trying to reconstruct Jesus until no actual historical backing remains. Man, that sure sounds exactly like what you're doing! quote:It's also probably also a later addition to the story. Read critical commentary. The whole thing also never happened, so what's it matter?
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Dec 23, 2014 21:01
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BrandorKP posted:You know you can google things right? I always love this excuse. This was added later, that part is apocryphal. This is a metaphor. For the only tool to help the Salvation of mankind the Bible sure is a contradictory peice of poo poo that you can't take anything from at face value.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:02
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Even if I did agree with Brandor that Christianity is so absurd that only a God or a crazy person could come up with it...I still have way more proof that crazy people exist than that Catholic God exists so if I'm to choose the more plausible explanation...well...
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Dec 23, 2014 21:04
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Bob James posted:The real story of Christ actually played out like the movie Bubba Ho-Tep. The real Son of God did not die on the cross. It was a Christ impersonator. I mean clearly Jesus is Elvis but does that make JFK -> J Caesar? Edit: but black Caesar.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:06
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But seriously look at the structure of the whole book of Job and then look at the epilogue. There is a sudden dramatic change in style and let's face it tone. I wonder why on earth would that be?Who What Now posted:The whole thing also never happened, so what's it matter? There you go again asserting that only the literally true is acceptable. Where does that come from again?
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Dec 23, 2014 21:07
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Bip Roberts posted:I mean clearly Jesus is Elvis but does that make JFK -> J Caesar? There was a second savior on the dusty mount, and JFK was one of the guys in the crowd.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:09
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Caros posted:For the only tool to help the Salvation of mankind the Bible sure is a contradictory peice of poo poo that you can't take anything from at face value. Which might bother me if I didn't think it written by, you know, people.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:10
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BrandorKP posted:But seriously look at the structure of the whole book of Job and then look at the epilogue. There is a sudden dramatic change in style and let's face it tone. I wonder why on earth would that be? Because if the whole story is made up then what is the difference if the ending was mad up by a different person?
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Dec 23, 2014 21:11
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BrandorKP posted:But seriously look at the structure of the whole book of Job and then look at the epilogue. There is a sudden dramatic change in style and let's face it tone. I wonder why on earth would that be? God lets the devil gently caress with a guy and his family on a bet. Some God.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:11
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BrandorKP posted:Which might bother me if I didn't think it written by, you know, people. So was the Star Wars extended universe.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:11
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BrandorKP posted:Which might bother me if I didn't think it written by, you know, people. Just strikes me as pretty funny that God is apparently so vindictive that the only path to Salvation involves guessing correctly which parts of the Bible are Tue among the horde of outright lies.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:12
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Kyrie eleison posted:Also, all the stuff you guys are posting about Christianity being a copy of prior religions is totally discredited. Most of the traits attributed with prior Egyptian gods or whatever are totally made up out of whole cloth, or extreme stretches and distortions. Literal lies and propaganda by the Zeitgeist team and those like them. Good luck convincing anyone of that poo poo when scrutiny is applied!  Why should we worry about Old Testament prophecy? Didn't Christ perfectly fulfill it all, or did he only perfectly fulfill it all in the exact sense we want that to mean this week? Do you believe in St. Josaphat, by the way?
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Dec 23, 2014 21:12
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BrandorKP posted:But seriously look at the structure of the whole book of Job and then look at the epilogue. There is a sudden dramatic change in style and let's face it tone. I wonder why on earth would that be? Because the Bible is goofy.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:14
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Bob James posted:Because the Bible is goofy. Maybe the Bible is really just a poorly understood dark comedy?
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Dec 23, 2014 21:15
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BrandorKP posted:There you go again asserting that only the literally true is acceptable. Where does that come from again? I never said only the literally true is acceptable. Not once. Only that the literally true should be treated as if it's literally true. And gently caress you, all you do is make baseless assertions and then ignore almost all the criticisms against then. You aren't here for a conversation, you're here to evangelize. You have a street corner for that poo poo, don't bring it here.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:15
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Actually the catholic church is on bad footing theologically because they became influenced by greek thinkers and made a fundamental error in attributing Jesus as God (JHWH) and introducing a life after death (Hell, purgatory etc). It was written that there would be such apostates after their deaths so it isnt surprising i guess.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:18
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Hey wouldn't it be more embrrassing for Christians if it turned out there was no Resurrection, and all this sexual repression and holy war and magical ritual were shameful wastes of time? Isn't getting caught out fabricating an embarrassing story even more embarrassing? Sure would be! Therefore Christianity is false. It is the negation of its own negation of its negation, profoundly, illuminatingly, embarrassingly false, praise Allah.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:20
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Bip Roberts posted:So was the Star Wars extended universe. People talk about what they think has meaning in their mythology. That does apply to the Star Wars extended universe. Some mythology is better than other mythology. Some mythology has more literally true elements, some has none at all. Caros posted:Just strikes me as pretty funny that God is apparently so vindictive that the only path to Salvation involves guessing correctly which parts of the Bible are True among the horde of outright lies. Which would bother me if, you know, If I didn't believe in universal salvation. Who What Now posted:You have a street corner for that poo poo, don't bring it here. The thread for, you know, talking about Jesus as the Christ. Nessus posted:Considering the lengthy and extensive history of syncretism in the area where Christianity took root, as well as the curious parallels between the lives of many saints and elements of similarly-named heathen gods that were popular in the area, surely you will admit that the Catholic Church did not, necessarily, completely avoid adopting pagan motifs and elements. For one thing, your philosophical arguments are basically entirely boosted off a pagan, if elaborated on by a monk. A lot of that happens once the conflict between paganism and monotheism is over. After monotheism won out, they could talk about all the pagan stuff and take it in, because it wasn't a threat anymore.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:21
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BrandorKP posted:The thread for, you know, talking about Jesus as the Christ. And closet stalkers!
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Dec 23, 2014 21:22
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CommieGIR posted:And closet stalkers! Ah well, women you know, always manipulating.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:25
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