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My take away from the other two released videos is that the deceased pulled a gun (that's what I'm leaning towards) or the cop misinterpreted a gesture and freaked out and fired quickly falling back. If it was a really, really bad shooting like I think Brown was I would be expecting the cop to draw and take aim but in that last video it does look like he basically fell over and just fired in defence without aiming like you'd expect. Dash and body cams are obviously the answer to making these situations less hazy.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:58
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Jarmak posted:That or maybe some of us have actual experience with people trying to kill us and having to make life or death decisions at a moment's notice. That happens so often. I'm surprised you are still alive. Ohhhh, scary world.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:19
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Judging from the plethora of incidents where police fire upon someone brandishing an object falling into every category under the sun besides "firearm", it's pretty fair to require actual photo evidence of the gun being pulled before taking the police story at face value. Grainy images from a distant camera need not apply, we saw better resolution from the 63 dallas tapes.
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Dec 26, 2014 13:16
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Has there been any investigative character assassination reporting on the complaint and disciplinary records of the two murdered NYPD officers? Obviously this sort of investigative story would piss alot of people off and no news outlet that wants to maintain a shred of mainstream credibility should touch it - it has to be an absolute rag of a liberal fringe publication that should look into these officers' records. Since releasing video of Michael Brown robbing a store on the same day Darren Wilson's name became public was apparently relevant, certainly finding out if Ramos and Liu were good cops or bad cops would be equally "relevant", and fair game at this point.
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Dec 26, 2014 14:21
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No one is going to bother reporting anything along those lines since the cops weren't killed as part of an altercation or stop. As much as the Mike Brown, Trayvon Martin, et al. character assassination was biased framing of the incident, it's not really an apt comparison when these people were simply walked up to and shot.
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Dec 26, 2014 14:28
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There are plenty of lovely fringe news rags from all angles that don't bother with logical reasons to report things - I'd just be interested in knowing if there's any silver karma lining at all.El Scandelouse posted:They didn't edit Rice, Garner, or Crawford. They also said the videos would clear up the shooting. Instead by not seeing what happens it makes Antonio look like he is holding a cell phone. It's a liberal media conspiracy  Pohl posted:That happens so often. I'm surprised you are still alive. It might have actually happened to the person you're mocking? As someone who's never been in such a situation, I think I'll react rationally and heroically when I daydream about those scenarios, and use the power of reason and psychology to reform the criminal right there and become best friends and partners in repairing the world, but in reality I would probably piss myself, trip over my left foot, and try to shove my car keys in my assailant's eye socket (but miss) Randandal fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 14:33
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Randandal posted:Has there been any investigative character assassination reporting on the complaint and disciplinary records of the two murdered NYPD officers? I swore I was going to stay out of this thread and yet... As insensitive as the way the footage was released (and rebroadcast by numerous media outlets) the fact that Michael Brown had been involved in an altercation with a store clerk may have been admissible at trial. In a self-defense case, which is obviously the angle Wilson was going for here, character for violence on the part of the victim may be admissible. here's a good law review article exploring some issues associated with that rule under massachussetts law. Granted, this is missouri, not massachussetts. Under the Missouri law, to admit this evidence, Wilson would have had to demonstrate that he was aware of the defendant's violent nature. (This was Mass's old rule, and still the rule in Missouri, Maine, and New York, to my knowledge, please someone correct me if that's changed) This likely would have been done via a motion in limine outside the presence of the jurors, and would have come down to whether or not Wilson had been aware of the robbery call, and whether or not Brown had a known criminal record. His juvenile records are still sealed, so I am not going to speculate on whether he does or doesn't, but it's something that would have been explored by the trial court. Here's another article addressing the admissibility of the robbery evidence under federal rules of evidence. (With an interesting sidebar about the unconstitutionality of the missouri use of force statute.) http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...criminal-trial/ So, while I am not a fan of victim smearing (which unfortunately happens in almost every victim case, not just those involving a cop, ask every sexual assault victim, ever) the robbery evidence may have been admissible depending on the outcome of a hearing on its admissibility. The cops that got shot do not involve any claim of self defense on the part of the shooter, therefore any dirt on them would be irrelevant. http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi...lf%20defense%22
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Dec 26, 2014 15:31
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I don't dispute any of that and I appreciate the legal perspective on it. The video of Brown committing robbery likely would be relevant in a trial
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Dec 26, 2014 15:46
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I'm not sure I understand your position, and I don't want to misinterpret it, are you saying you want to see *more* victim smearing, even in cases where there is no self-defense claim so there's not even a shred of admissibility?
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Dec 26, 2014 15:49
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Randandal posted:I'm sure Ramos or Liu at least had a hand in beating up some Occupy protesters or perpetrating some enthusiastic stop-and-frisk or something. Based on...?
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Dec 26, 2014 15:49
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ActusRhesus posted:words ActusRhesus, I'm really enjoying your posts, and having you give a policeman's side of the story. What would you say would be a good strategy when dealing with a hostile cop who is violating your rights?
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Dec 26, 2014 15:55
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:ActusRhesus, I'm really enjoying your posts, and having you give a policeman's side of the story. What would you say would be a good strategy when dealing with a hostile cop who is violating your rights? Unfortunately any time you are in a situation with an imbalance of power, fighting at the scene goes poorly. However I would absolutely recommend calling someone immediately when you are able and things said may be admissible under the excited utterance doctrine depending on your state, and contacting either the ACLU or a civil rights lawyer and looking into the possibility of a civil suit.
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Dec 26, 2014 16:07
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:ActusRhesus, I'm really enjoying your posts, and having you give a policeman's side of the story. What would you say would be a good strategy when dealing with a hostile cop who is violating your rights? Keep quiet and lawyer up later. Arguing with, or worse, starting a fight with, a cop, is never going to end well for you.
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Dec 26, 2014 16:08
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-Troika- posted:Keep quiet and lawyer up later. Arguing with, or worse, starting a fight with, a cop, is never going to end well for you. Pretty much. And document it first chance you get. Call someone and write it down. And of course before going from zero to lawsuit, if the goal is accountability, you can lodge a complaint with the supervisor /city. There are still some PDs that take that seriously ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 16:20
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:ActusRhesus, I'm really enjoying your posts, and having you give a policeman's side of the story. What would you say would be a good strategy when dealing with a hostile cop who is violating your rights? Be white?
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Dec 26, 2014 16:23
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ActusRhesus posted:Pretty much. And document it first chance you get. Call someone and write it down. Just make sure you don't actually set foot in the PD when requesting to file a complaint because there is a good chance you'll be arrested on a trumped-up charge.
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Dec 26, 2014 16:31
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Randandal posted:
I'm not a conservative. I was commenting on how shady the police look saying their videos will clear the cop when they didn't. There were a bunch of people at the gas station that said they didn't see any gun until they blocked off Antonio's body. He was also still alive and a few blocks away from a medical facility but no ambulance was called. Some bystanders called an ambulance but it also never came. The PD also pulled a Mike Brown and loaded the body in a van. The video makes it look like he is holding something glowing in his right hand. Would be helpful to know if he is right or left handed.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:30
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Has the second dude that was with Antonio been identified? He ran away, but was right there. He would be the best source for figuring out what happened. Has anyone heard about the media locating and talking with him?
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Dec 26, 2014 17:40
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Demon Of The Fall posted:Has the second dude that was with Antonio been identified? He ran away, but was right there. He would be the best source for figuring out what happened. Has anyone heard about the media locating and talking with him? Knowing the area he may end up with a bullet in the head and his body burned like the two Mike Brown witnesses.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:13
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El Scandelouse posted:Knowing the area he may end up with a bullet in the head and his body burned like the two Mike Brown witnesses. Wait, what?  I thought I followed the Mike Brown/Ferguson stuff pretty closely and I don't remember this. Can you link me, please?
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Dec 26, 2014 18:29
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Well this thread has gone full truther (as if it already hadn't).Pohl posted:That happens so often. I'm surprised you are still alive. Do you really not comprehend that there are milgoons to whom that was a regular occurrence in their life? Or that its a lot easier to have empathy for someone placed in a similar situation (even someone who made the wrong decision) having had those experiences?
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Dec 26, 2014 18:40
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Shakenbaker posted:Wait, what? http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=28872 This fellow apparently testified and was found dead. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...uson-last-week/ Deandre didn't testify it seems, but he was friends with Dorian Johnson who most assuredly did. Doesn't seem like one of the protestors would execute him then burn his body. Could have been trying to send a message. It's hard to nail down any real facts.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:40
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El Scandelouse posted:http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=28872 This fellow apparently testified and was found dead. That WaPo article is amazing, its basically "people on the internet speculated this guy was killed for knowing something", then the entire article runs down how every piece of evidence and every person involved on both sides of the michael brown shooting says thats ridiculous, and then ends with "but I guess we'll never know". I think the fact the first link is to a site that bills itself "The magazine of record for the last days" kind of speaks for itself
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Dec 26, 2014 18:50
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El Scandelouse posted:http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=28872 This fellow apparently testified and was found dead. Thanks for posting these. I'm going to assume there's not a lot of other people being shot and then burned in the area. Also does "snitches get stitches' typically apply to testifying against cops? Because that seems like some good narrative building. The comments threads are also just as terrible as you'd expect. Glad that never changes.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:58
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Jarmak posted:Do you really not comprehend that there are milgoons to whom that was a regular occurrence in their life? Or that its a lot easier to have empathy for someone placed in a similar situation (even someone who made the wrong decision) having had those experiences? Relating military experiences to police experiences is irrelevant and deeply troubling.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:59
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Do copgoons regard themselves as being at war with other civilians? Instead of their community, do they work in a battlefield?
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Dec 26, 2014 19:09
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Jarmak posted:That WaPo article is amazing, its basically "people on the internet speculated this guy was killed for knowing something", then the entire article runs down how every piece of evidence and every person involved on both sides of the michael brown shooting says thats ridiculous, and then ends with "but I guess we'll never know". Yeah the reporting on it is novice at best. It still seems odd that this young man turned up the way he did though. Given the police department in Ferguson has ties with the local KKK chapter it wouldn't be unbelievable he was murdered for a more sinister reason. Then again it could be random violence. https://twitter.com/BklynMiddleton/status/535519206557900800 I don't think it helps the police force's image to the community of predominantly black people to let the KKK leadership hang out at the police station to watch the protesting. It also makes it easier to believe that they would target blacks in an aggressive manner. El Scandelouse fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 19:12
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Alhazred posted:Be white? Doesn't work, although I guess if I were nonwhite I'd probably be dead or in prison.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:15
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Evil Sagan posted:Do copgoons regard themselves as being at war with other civilians? Instead of their community, do they work in a battlefield? You should go ask them. They are right over there*.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:15
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SedanChair posted:Relating military experiences to police experiences is irrelevant and deeply troubling. I suppose, if you're an idiot with neither who is trying to compare Band of Brothers to Cops . But since I'm actually talking about the much more granular comparison of being in a moment where you think someone is trying to kill you (real or perceived) and having to make the decision to kill or not thats a pretty stupid thing to say. Especially since I'm speaking in the context of explaining why one group has the tendency of having empathy for the other. edit: grammar Jarmak fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 19:20
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Jarmak posted:I suppose, if you're an idiot with neither who is trying to compare Band of Brothers to Cops . Then maybe we should make the decision easier by not putting the means of life or death in the hands of police.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:22
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El Scandelouse posted:Yeah the reporting on it is novice at best. It still seems odd that this young man turned up the way he did though. Given the police department in Ferguson has ties with the local KKK chapter it wouldn't be unbelievable he was murdered for a more sinister reason. Then again it could be random violence.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:23
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archangelwar posted:Then maybe we should make the decision easier by not putting the means of life or death in the hands of police. Or ensuring that adequate documentation of their interactions is created rather than cameras that mysteriously are never used.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:24
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Shakenbaker posted:Thanks for posting these. I'm going to assume there's not a lot of other people being shot and then burned in the area. Also does "snitches get stitches' typically apply to testifying against cops? Because that seems like some good narrative building. No. Usually snitches get stitches refers to cooperating w cops.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:26
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Jarmak posted:I suppose, if you're an idiot with neither who is trying to compare Band of Brothers to Cops . Their perceptions are an illusion that certainly does not confer knowledge. Police aren't particularly in danger of violent death. Shouldn't there be a more salient brotherhood of understanding between 7-11 clerks, or cab drivers?
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Dec 26, 2014 19:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Has anyone yet theorized that Mike Brown was killed by a global cabal of bankers? Well capitalism is the cause of all the inequality we suffer from so you could say that this statement is true in a way.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:34
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SedanChair posted:Their perceptions are an illusion that certainly does not confer knowledge. Branis posted:Well capitalism is the cause of all the inequality we suffer from so you could say that this statement is true in a way.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:36
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SedanChair posted:Their perceptions are an illusion that certainly does not confer knowledge. Police aren't particularly in danger of violent death. Shouldn't there be a more salient brotherhood of understanding between 7-11 clerks, or cab drivers? For the majority of cops yes, we're not talking about the majority of cops though we're talking about the minority of cops that actually got into a violent altercation that had life or death implications. Also its funny because in general I think (warning: anecdotal) the military harbours a lot of animosity toward the police for thinking they have a relatable experience. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 19:46
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El Scandelouse posted:http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=28872 This fellow apparently testified and was found dead. http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/deandrejoshua.asp
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Dec 26, 2014 19:49
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I think I might be heavily oversimplifying the situation with these ideas, so I'm posting it to see whether or not it's dumb. Personally, I think something that might help in some way is to get more people to become cops who aren't likely to abuse the power they have over citizens. I would suggest some sort of campaign telling people to become the differrence in their community by becoming police officers, as well as providing scholarships to people from lower-class and minority backgrounds who wish to become police officers. Additionally, since I am told this is done as part of military training, place cops-in-training in a mock city street and have them act out scenarios which would test how ethically they would react to a morally dubious and/or life-threatening situation. They would have to retake this particular piece of training every few years, preferably with different scenarios each time. Ideally, more half of the judges of these tests would not actually be members of the department. Like I said, I get the feeling that the problem is far more complicated for my solutions, and am posting this specifically because I want to hear criticisms of it.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:54
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