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wheez the roux posted:1 John 4:20 ESV - If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. I recommend Robert M. Price's podcast "The Human Bible" he's a Baptist minister turned Atheist with a doctorate in theology and the new testament and he talks about all of this and why it is like that, wherever your beliefs may fall at the very least he's entertaining to listen to on this subject
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Dec 26, 2014 00:42
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goon project: write a holy text that has passages supporting every side of every divisive issue so in 500 years people can dismiss the millions of things we're wrong about as metaphor nor being misinterpreted while pointing to the few things we end up being correct about as proof of divine inspiration and how it's a book of utmost importance. poo poo nostradamus beat us to it
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Dec 26, 2014 00:48
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I was thinking today about the qualities of "the ideal religion." The ideal religion is one that helps you cope with loss, while giving you hope. So therefore, the ideal religion cannot claim the success of a particular race, because a race can be destroyed. It cannot claim the success of a nation, because a nation can be destroyed. It cannot even claim the success of humanity, because humanity can be destroyed. It must not guarantee the success of your romantic endeavors. And also not your business pursuits. It mustn't say your children will be healthy and happy and attractive and smart and successful. It must not promise you anything in this earthly life. But it also must encourage you to do your best in this earthly life. Yes, it is clear. Christianity is the ideal religion.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:54
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That sounds like kind of a useless religion given that it accomplishes little more than prescription medication.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:55
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. Kyrie eleison posted:I was thinking today about the qualities of "the ideal religion." Hell, Buddhism even anticipates its own eventual disappearance, though the tradition is that at some far-distant time, there will be the Maitreya Buddha, although theories vary on whether he will just be more or less the same fellow as Buddha, an eternal permanent savior, or something else entirely. (Some have theorized that Muhammad, pbuh and so forth, was the Maitreya Buddha!)
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Dec 26, 2014 08:14
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Nessus posted:. i'm pretty sure Gautama Buddha is supposed to have reached enlightenment and will no longer reincarnate. Any further Buddhas are separate souls who reach enlightenment on their own. but i guess, because they are all enlightened, they are basically the same state of being. It's kind of like the Holy Spirit in that way. the same divine person present in many separate souls. huh... maybe Christianity and Buddhism are the same religion?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyf6HQ_iPjU
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Dec 26, 2014 08:36
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The ideal religion, whatever its form, would probably be a turnoff to weeaboo psychos who gloat at the prospect of people going to hell.
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Dec 26, 2014 08:42
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SedanChair posted:The ideal religion, whatever its form, would probably be a turnoff to weeaboo psychos who gloat at the prospect of people going to hell. Isn't it just so charming? I'm sure Jesus is going to welcome Kyrie with open arms for the way he told his brothers that he was happy they are going to hell for disagreeing with him on the something awful Internet forums. Truly Kyrie understands the core point of Jesus. Be a smug mother fucker and gloat. I suppose the one saving grace if Kyrie is right about religion, he will be in hell right there with everyone else.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:09
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The ideal religion must be taught by the means of cheap and obnoxious cartoons, the God's medium of choice.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:45
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Kyrie eleison posted:So therefore, the ideal religion cannot claim the success of a particular race, because a race can be destroyed. Boy God sure was dumb giving the Israelites the wrong religion.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:33
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Twelve by Pies posted:Boy God sure was dumb giving the Israelites the wrong religion. An extremely elaborate practical joke.
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Dec 26, 2014 12:05
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Kyrie eleison posted:I was thinking today about the qualities of "the ideal religion." Interesting that "being factually true" doesn't appear anywhere on this list.
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Dec 26, 2014 13:06
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Disinterested posted:An extremely elaborate practical joke. Its not that elaborate, hell, it's got this far with no input whatsoever.
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Dec 26, 2014 13:39
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Twelve by Pies posted:Boy God sure was dumb giving the Israelites the wrong religion. He played a practical joke and then punished them for his own joke.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:22
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bokkibear posted:Interesting that "being factually true" doesn't appear anywhere on this list.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:36
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Nessus posted:surely you can see how people can be inspired by stories. Of course I can. I've been inspired by lots of books, films, art etc. Was that a religious experience? Would you think it unremarkable if I declared that the events portrayed in Pleasantville actually happened and founded a worldwide organisation to spread the word?
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Dec 26, 2014 18:53
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I have been inspired by religious stories. A great many people, including Christians, are inspired by ancient mythology. One does not have to be invested in the truth of the supporting religious superstructure of those tales.
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Dec 26, 2014 19:56
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bokkibear posted:Interesting that "being factually true" doesn't appear anywhere on this list. This is lame... obviously every religion is believed to be true by its practitioners. If you don't believe in it, then it's not a religion. I guess you all concede that these are qualities of the ideal religion, though.
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Dec 26, 2014 20:48
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is lame... obviously every religion is believed to be true by its practitioners. If you don't believe in it, then it's not a religion. Edit:  Responding to that post would be like responding to a motivational poster. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 20:49
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Disinterested posted:Responding to that post would like be responding to a motivational poster. Would like be, indeed. Concession noted.
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Dec 26, 2014 20:52
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Kyrie eleison posted:I was thinking today about the qualities of "the ideal religion." Why are these qualities of the "ideal" religion? I mean ignoring the fact that the ideal religion would almost certainly be the one that is actually correct, which we can't seem to know since god is sort of a prick about telling us these things, how are these qualities of the ideal religion in the sense that you're talking? I mean... I guess they are 'ideal' in that religions with these qualities aren't subject to falsification based on future experience, and that makes them 'ideal' from the perspective of keeping the rubes in line but is that the high point you're really going for Kyrie? Duping people into believing something with no evidence?
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Dec 26, 2014 21:03
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I think the ideal religion would adopt the moral teachings of Jesus but leave off all the supernatural stuff. Ah, this has been done, and you don't need to call it religion anymore? Splendid.
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Dec 26, 2014 21:04
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A religion, or at the very least Christianity, needn't be falsifiable re. the existence and essence of God, because the understanding of God is reconstituted in each individual separately, based on individual experience and on trying to create a personal theory of moral universe. If for somebody God ends up being the most advanced rational concept of Goodness, then as far as they are concerned, God is true, and whether or not he is falsifiable is insignificant.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:24
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Just to be clear: the reason we keep trying despite losing everything is the hope that we might be spared from eternal damnation. We do it out of duty and for no other reason. No lofty theological concepts, no sentimentality. You are not supposed to think of God as Good in the sense that his views are malleable by you because you have reasoned things out and therefore God must agree with your assessment. You are supposed to think of God as Good because that is a requirement of being his slave. If you do not realize that you are totally and completely in service to Him, then you are not repentant. If you continue in sin, then you are not repentant.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:37
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Like, I would say that systems of thought - and God is a system of thought - in general do not require falsification to have significance and persuasive power. Fascism in particular is based on a notion of the people marching to a deliberate death in the wheels of permanent war. You could say that this vision clashes with any scientific efforts in sociology, economy etc. because such an ideology doesn't provide measurable welfare. But it has swept entire nations and led millions to their doom because scientific method is weak in comparison to the illumination provided by ideology, and can't supplant its comforting and guiding power. So: You can yell that religion is unscientific as much as you can, but that ignores the fact that there are other than scientific truths, and that such social or spiritual truths often have greater power.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:38
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is lame... obviously every religion is believed to be true by its practitioners. If you don't believe in it, then it's not a religion. We no more need to refute your claims than we do the claim that the sky is made of cotton candy. Their wrongness is self-evident.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:39
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Kyrie eleison posted:Just to be clear: the reason we keep trying despite losing everything is the hope that we might be spared from eternal damnation. We do it out of duty and for no other reason. No lofty theological concepts, no sentimentality. Yeah that guy sounds like a bitch. Non serviam.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:42
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steinrokkan posted:A religion, or at the very least Christianity, needn't be falsifiable re. the existence and essence of God, because the understanding of God is reconstituted in each individual separately, based on individual experience and on trying to create a personal theory of moral universe. If for somebody God ends up being the most advanced rational concept of Goodness, then as far as they are concerned, God is true, and whether or not he is falsifiable is insignificant. That's just redefining God into meaninglessness. Most people recognize that the concept of God at the very least has some sort of agency of it's own if not other anthropomorphizing traits.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:44
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I thought we were meant to follow God's laws because of love, not because of selfish fear (which is ultimately a result of self-love).
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Dec 26, 2014 22:45
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Who What Now posted:That's just redefining God into meaninglessness. Most people recognize that the concept of God at the very least has some sort of agency of it's own if not other anthropomorphizing traits. Isn't his position as the only law-giver the ultimate source of agency?
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Dec 26, 2014 22:46
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steinrokkan posted:So: You can yell that religion is unscientific as much as you can, but that ignores the fact that there are other than scientific truths, and that such social or spiritual truths often have greater power. What is a spiritual truth? What does that even mean?
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Dec 26, 2014 22:46
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steinrokkan posted:I thought we were meant to follow God's laws because of love, not because of selfish fear (which is ultimately a result of self-love). Love of the self is perfectly embodied by SedanChair, and by Lucifer, when they say, "I will not serve." They would rather burn in Hell for all eternity than serve God. Their pride will not allow it. That is their choice to make; God gives them that choice, and they make it.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:48
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steinrokkan posted:Isn't his position as the only law-giver the ultimate source of agency? You didn't say that. The part I was specifically replying to was your saying that someone's God could just be the ultimate concept of Goodness, which doesn't really have anything to do with being a law-giver.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:49
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Kyrie eleison posted:Love of the self is perfectly embodied by SedanChair, and by Lucifer, when they say, "I will not serve." They would rather burn in Hell for all eternity than serve God. Their pride will not allow it. That is their choice to make; God gives them that choice, and they make it. I'm choosing to make a chicken parmesan for dinner. Thanks God!
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Dec 26, 2014 22:49
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Who What Now posted:What is a spiritual truth? What does that even mean? I don't know about a better term; it's the sort of truth that tells me things that are in apparent conflict with empirical reality; that self-immolation is a better course of action than trying to engage the system; that living as a hermit is more meaningful than living in society; that loyalty to a totalitarian regime is more important than self-preservation; that even when standing in front of an execution squad I should cry out praise to Stalin. Philosophical truth?
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Dec 26, 2014 22:54
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steinrokkan posted:I don't know about a better term; it's the sort of truth that tells me things that are in apparent conflict with empirical reality; that self-immolation is a better course of action than trying to engage the system; that living as a hermit is more meaningful than living in society; that loyalty to a totalitarian regime is more important than self-preservation; that even when standing in front of an execution squad I should cry out praise to Stalin. Philosophical truth? We already have a word for those: beliefs and convictions.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:59
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Who What Now posted:You didn't say that. The part I was specifically replying to was your saying that someone's God could just be the ultimate concept of Goodness, which doesn't really have anything to do with being a law-giver. I guess my concept of Goodness is different than yours. For me it necessarily contains an order of things based on laws, which originate in the most general form of Good. Kyrie eleison posted:Love of the self is perfectly embodied by SedanChair, and by Lucifer, when they say, "I will not serve." They would rather burn in Hell for all eternity than serve God. Their pride will not allow it. That is their choice to make; God gives them that choice, and they make it. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 23:00
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Who What Now posted:We already have a word for those: beliefs and convictions. But in an ideology a belief isn't just a belief, that's the point I've been trying to express.
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Dec 26, 2014 23:02
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steinrokkan posted:But in an ideology a belief isn't just a belief, that's the point I've been trying to express. What? Of course it's just a belief. Holding a belief strongly doesn't make it not a belief. -EDIT- steinrokkan posted:I guess my concept of Goodness is different than yours. For me it necessarily contains an order of things based on laws, which originate in the most general form of Good. Laws pertain to justice, not necessarily to morality.
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Dec 26, 2014 23:06
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When neo-Platonists attack!
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Dec 26, 2014 23:07
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