|
BrandorKP posted:What are the characteristics of the demonic the NT and in the thought of the Greek thinking people who wrote it? From the guys who said 'Let's burn down the Library of Alexandria'....
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:04 |
|
|
Michael Jackson posted:clarify When Paul talks about demonic powers what does he mean? When Celsus criticizes the Christians and talks about how the demonic powers actually rule the world and Rome keeps them in check what does he mean? Those soters (who are teachers) what are they saving people from, what does that particular conceptualization of the demonic look like? When Jesus casts out demons in the Gospels what are the characteristics of the demonic? Mr Dennet gives a drat fitting description of the concept. "It’s only other agents that try to control us. And it”s important that we keep them at bay so that we can be autonomous." He has to know what he's doing there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:12
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:I was surprised when my wife sneezed loudly last night. Was she performing a miracle at me? Did you wonder or marvel at the sneeze? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/miraculum SedanChair posted:Being defined by an ignorant, pre-scientific people. People who we have not significantly or categorically changed from.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
nah, it is clear when you read NT that it is talking about angels who became evil.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
This is one of the biggest stretches I have ever heard of.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:When Paul talks about demonic powers what does he mean? Who cares?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:When Paul talks about demonic powers what does he mean? All agents are demonic. You're a demon, I'm a demon, he's a demon, she's a demon, that dog's probably a minor demon, Obama probably qualifies as a Daemon Prince who rules over one of the nine layers of hell... It's demons all the way down.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:People who we have not significantly or categorically changed from. Who's "we"? I have. If you're talking about people in megachurches, those folks are base. I hold myself above them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:17
|
|
|
when paul talk about demonic powers what does he mean? ...demonic powers? What is "demonic" and what is "power"? Now let me redefine what was written and change its original meaning.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:19
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Did you wonder or marvel at the sneeze? Brandor, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, so you might want to sit down. Ok, are you ready for this? Are you braced both physically and psychologically? Ok, here we go: The meaning of words change over time. I'll understand if you need to take a moment to understand this world-shattering revelation. quote:People who we have not significantly or categorically changed from. Well, you haven't, but the rest of us sure have.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:When Paul talks about demonic powers what does he mean? So, what you are telling me is you support a return to exorcism as a valid way to treat people with mental disorders? Should we start trying people as witches again? Do you realize what sort of special pleading you are doing at this moment to make an argument such as this? BrandorKP posted:People who we have not significantly or categorically changed from. You wish.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Brandor, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, so you might want to sit down. Ok, are you ready for this? Are you braced both physically and psychologically? Ok, here we go: It is always funny when you talk with catholics/protestants/baptists about trinity/hell/soul and they are adamant in using their definition of words that mean something else than it meant originally.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:24
|
|
|
Brandor's ideology makes a lot more sense now that I know he thinks that there have been literally no advances in human knowledge for over two millennia.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
What is progress anyway? *inspects Panamax tanker using advanced math and science*
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:26
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:This is one of the biggest stretches I have ever heard of. Mr. Dennet is just doing this: "" posted:The ancient world thought quite differently about Epicurus. They called him soter because he did something for them which was the greatest thing he could do for them, a thing which also is praised by Paul when he speaks of the transformation of the pagans into Christians, namely, liberation from anxiety. Epicurus, with his system of atoms - we call it a materialistic system - liberated them from the fear of demons which permeated the whole life of the ancient world and especially of the later ancient world. Men like Epicurus were called soters, saviors, because they liberated people from fear by their philosophy. All this shows what a serious thing philosophy was at that time. . . Dennet is saying "freedom from" can be found in materialism. I bet that (Epicurus freeing from the demonic) exactly where he's looking too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:27
|
|
|
Can you first expand on what you think all of these people thought about demons at length so that I can really see into the deep inner workings of your wrongness.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:29
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:What is progress anyway? *inspects Panamax tanker using advanced math and science* Ever spend time around Isrealis? Ever hear the euphemism: "Turk, Turk"? I had it explained to me by a Chief Officer yesterday. "We've got to kill this Turk before we can kill that one". People are the same as they have always been, poo poo-rear end awful. Edit: Heading out, will be back, or will pick up where this left off when I can. Edit 2: Disinterested before I go: First Angels are anything that is a "Messengers of the truth" again that's the most literal meaning of the word. Here's demonic in the NT sense, which is related to (but not the same as) the sense the word was used in Neo-Platonism. "" posted:Another world of beings between God and man arose and became powerful: the realm of the DEMONS. There are not only good angels, but also evil ones. These evil angels are not only organs of temptation and punishment under the direction of God, but they are also a realm of power against God. We can see this very well out of the conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees concerning the Divine or demonic power, where he exorcizes the demons. This belief in demons permeated the daily life of that time, and filled the highest speculation of the time. It was a dualistic element, but it never became ontological dualism. Here again Judaism was able to introduce a good many ideas from Persia, among them the demonology of the Persian religion, where the demons have the same standing as the gods, where the evil god has the same ontological standing as the good god. It introduced these ideas and the New Testament is full of them but it never fell back into an ontological dualism. All these demonic powers have power only through the one God; they have no standing of their own in an ultimate sense. This comes out in the mythology of the fallen angels. The evil angels are, as is everything created, good which is the first anti-pagan dogma; but as fallen angels they are now evil angels. . . . and therefore responsible and punishable, and are not simply creations of an anti-divine being. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Dec 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:30
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Ever spend time around Isrealis? Ever hear the euphemism: "Turk, Turk"? I had it explained to me by a Chief Officer yesterday. "We've got to kill this Turk before we can kill that one". Special pleading, anyone? Just because you have such low regard for humanity does not mean that is actually reflected by humanity at large. Please answer my question about the validity of exorcism as a treatment for mental patients.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ. [a] (or) basic principles BrandorKP posted:Mr. Dennet is just doing this:
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Ever spend time around Isrealis? Ever hear the euphemism: "Turk, Turk"? I had it explained to me by a Chief Officer yesterday. "We've got to kill this Turk before we can kill that one". Um, you may want to pick another nationality to prove the assertion "people are barbaric!" because the whole world is in agreement that Israelis are especially barbaric.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:36
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Ever spend time around Isrealis? Ever hear the euphemism: "Turk, Turk"? I had it explained to me by a Chief Officer yesterday. "We've got to kill this Turk before we can kill that one". Racism?! But Obama was supposed to do away with that!  And you never answered me before, do you ask for a human being to throw on the fire when you go camping? You know, since it's important to always use the original meanings of words and all?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:38
|
|
Who What Now posted:And you never answered me before, do you ask for a human being to throw on the fire when you go camping? You know, since it's important to always use the original meanings of words and all? Literal fascism at work.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:39
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Um, you may want to pick another nationality to prove the assertion "people are barbaric!" because the whole world is in agreement that Israelis are especially barbaric. I completely missed that too 
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:43
|
|
|
If we use modern definition of "soul" rather than the hebrew definition then i can understand why one would believe that we have an intangible indestructible "something" in our bodies. calrify clafiry clariyf
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 17:57
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Racism?! But Obama was supposed to do away with that! I only speak in proto-indo-european. As a courtesy to you degenerate language abusers, I run my posts through Google translate first to put them in your ignorant vernacular.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:03
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I only speak in proto-indo-european. Oh oh lemme try speaking your language "Whilst"
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:"Whilst" "eating icecream"
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:08
|
|
|
There seems to be an extra level on which the analogy doesn't work. The central point of the interview is that in order to preserve one's independence on other agents, we must maintain a "poker face" that conceals our beliefs, our inner world. That way the other agents can't act in a way that would give them leverage. So in order to maintain moral integrity and autonomy, we must maintain ability to act in a surprising way, which is counterintuitive, but makes sense. However, in the Biblical context, surprises and demonic powers inspire to professing belief, because for this professed piety is found strength provided by God, and because the goal isn't moral autonomy, but rather moral congruence with a subject of spiritual love. Jesus didn't resist the temptations of the Devil by denying his Father to confuse his nemesis. So even if we accept broad definitions of angels and demons as moral influences rather than concrete beings, the article argues in opposite direction to the Bible, IMHO. So I would say that Bible inspires the believer to give up being a moral agent in the sense it is used in the interview. Though I'm not sure why you people are so angry about trying to think about historically rooted things in the vernacular of the subjects of those events. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:17
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:There seems to be an extra level on which the analogy doesn't work. The central point of the interview is that in order to preserve one's independence on other agents, we must maintain a "poker face" that conceals our beliefs, our inner world. That way the other agents can't act in a way that would give them leverage. So in order to maintain moral integrity and autonomy, we must maintain ability to act in a surprising way, which is counterintuitive, but makes sense. We'd have to accept that morality can only be inspired and defined by religion. Which isn't the case.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:31
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:We'd have to accept that morality can only be inspired and defined by religion. This is fundamentally an argument specifically about Biblical concept of morality, so it's kind of an axiom.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:33
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:This is fundamentally an argument specifically about Biblical concept of morality, so it's kind of an axiom. That must be why he posted this link to try to stretch the Biblical concept of Morality into reality: BrandorKP posted:Saw this over the holiday:
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
Yes, the question he posed is if the gist of the interview corresponds with Biblical thought. Thats not expanding Bible into reality, its comparative analysis.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:40
|
|
|
Michael Jackson posted:See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ. That description of Epicurus is from a lecture on "The Preparation of the Ancient World to Receive Christianity". So as I think about it more, I'm pretty sure he's (Dennet) intentionally looking back to Epicurus. But that would lead into, Does he realize how Christians can (and will) respond to an idea that is already regarded as preparatory for the world to receive Christianity? SedanChair posted:Um, you may want to pick another nationality to prove the assertion "people are barbaric!" because the whole world is in agreement that Israelis are especially barbaric. Don't get me started on the racism I see in my line of work. The Israeli just stuck out because it was yesterday. The Greeks and Turks, the Japanese and everybody else in Asia, the Chinese and everybody not Chinese, everybody and the Filipinos, the longshoremen and management, it's a smorgasbord of racism in the shipping industry. (Don't consider that a final list) Ships still hire "Coolie Gangs" overseas (to do things like wipe out fuel oil tanks by hand) and they still get called a "Coolie Gang". It can be pretty hosed up. I have heard South African Port Captains say unbelievable things so vile that I won't even repeat them. CommieGIR posted:So, what you are telling me is you support a return to exorcism as a valid way to treat people with mental disorders? No, of course not. That's terrible. But I would support live something like: " I would rather die than hate you" (an astonishing, surprising, assertion that causes one to marvel that it was made) in response to racism (a thing perpetuated by agents, that control peoples actions in a harmful way) though. But you know, those straw men are easier aren't they. And:  You wouldn't believe the amount of thermo I had as an undergrad. gently caress me I had semesters with 25+ credits ( I think my high was 28).
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:44
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:And: Oh man, sounds like you also went to college. Nice one!
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
CommieGIR called me liar about what I studied earlier.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:47
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:No, of course not. That's terrible. Good for you. I have bookshelves full of nuclear physics books. This does not raise your credibility. Plenty of excellent and intelligent people believe stupid poo poo. But I'm still enjoying your wives pleas for your son to be raised in a Community where 'Grace' is present, and your goals to have in study a bunch of religious dogma to keep him on the 'right track' should you pass away.  BrandorKP posted:CommieGIR called me liar about what I studied earlier. I did not call you a liar. I just find it at odds to the type of arguments you make. BrandorKP posted:Don't get me started on the racism I see in my line of work. The Israeli just stuck out because it was yesterday. The Greeks and Turks, the Japanese and everybody else in Asia, the Chinese and everybody not Chinese, everybody and the Filipinos, the longshoremen and management, it's a smorgasbord of racism in the shipping industry. (Don't consider that a final list) Ships still hire "Coolie Gangs" overseas (to do things like wipe out fuel oil tanks by hand) and they still get called a "Coolie Gang". It can be pretty hosed up. I have heard South African Port Captains say unbelievable things so vile that I won't even repeat them. People suck. But this anecdotal evidence does not support the idea that humans are amoral assholes overall. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Dec 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:48
|
|
|
I took thermodynamics in college too, so you guys can trust that I have the universe all figured out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:55
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:
Those are sweet book covers, I wonder what the first cover looked like in AD 70 because our understanding has not changed since then?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:56
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Don't get me started on the racism I see in my line of work. The Israeli just stuck out because it was yesterday. The Greeks and Turks, the Japanese and everybody else in Asia, the Chinese and everybody not Chinese, everybody and the Filipinos, the longshoremen and management, it's a smorgasbord of racism in the shipping industry. (Don't consider that a final list) Ships still hire "Coolie Gangs" overseas (to do things like wipe out fuel oil tanks by hand) and they still get called a "Coolie Gang". It can be pretty hosed up. I have heard South African Port Captains say unbelievable things so vile that I won't even repeat them. So what? The fact that racists still exist doesn't mean we haven't progressed a single step in over 2000+ years. If we were the same people as those in the Bible we wouldn't merely be saying racist things (although I'm not excusing such a thing) but actively trying to murder and enslave people who look different than us en masse. BrandorKP posted:No, of course not. That's terrible. BrandorKP posted:But I would support live something like: " I would rather die than hate you" (an astonishing, surprising, assertion that causes one to marvel that it was made) in response to racism (a thing perpetuated by agents, that control peoples actions in a harmful way) though. But you know, those straw men are easier aren't they. Saying that is neither surprising nor astonishing. Have you never heard "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it"? I hear that trite poo poo from pseudo-patriots drat near once a week. Talk is cheap, after all. BrandorKP posted:And: Hey, I have access to campus book stores too! And am I ever going to get an answer to my question or no?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 18:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:04 |
|
|
SedanChair posted:Those are sweet book covers, I wonder what the first cover looked like in AD 70 because our understanding has not changed since then? The atomists were soooooooo close to discovering fission. BrandorKP posted:No, of course not. That's terrible. Then how do we go about casting out these 'demons' that you claim were around only during Jesus' little trip through the middle east? Unless, suddenly, they just were not interested in possessing people anymore after the crucifixion...
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 19:01
|
|